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Flying to Europe- business class

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1 hour ago, susiesan said:

One way ORD-CPH via LHR on BA in J is 57,750 avios plus $595.61 tax pp. 

Actually it is 69,000 Avios (60K for ORD to LHR and 9K for LHR to CPH as BA charges per segment).

It would be 57,500 with AA miles IF you could get that award (as it would be bookable 3 weeks after BA awards were released ) and UR points do not transfer to AA miles anyway.

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9 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

Actually it is 69,000 Avios (60K for ORD to LHR and 9K for LHR to CPH as BA charges per segment).

It would be 57,500 with AA miles IF you could get that award (as it would be bookable 3 weeks after BA awards were released ) and UR points do not transfer to AA miles anyway.

I was looking at March 2020 which is saver time for BA. Either cost in avios, I still would have to pay the outrageous taxes and buy a ticket to ORD. Like I said, I'll try for the seats using UA points and if I can't get them I will cancel the cruise, go to Namibia on safari, and rebook a Baltic cruise some other year.

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ITA matrix is great for BC fares. I also use Momondo. Between the two they usually find the lowest BC combinations

 

For my upcoming Regent cruise this August,  I found on Momondo last December.

 

MIA-FRA-CPH on LH

OSL-ZRH-MIA on LX

 

Business Class  $1850 RT/PP incl taxes.  

 

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2 minutes ago, commodore2010 said:

ITA matrix is great for BC fares. I also use Momondo. Between the two they usually find the lowest BC combinations

 

For my upcoming Regent cruise this August,  I found on Momondo last December.

 

MIA-FRA-CPH on LH

OSL-ZRH-MIA on LX

 

Business Class  $1850 RT/PP incl taxes.  

 

That is an excellent price!

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6 minutes ago, susiesan said:

I was looking at March 2020 which is saver time for BA.

I see. Of course, for June travel it would be the regular fare at 69K.

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Another interesting way to find low fares. 

A friend of mine uses a VPN network on his PC to mask his location. You can choose from 50 or so countries and the airline site thinks you are in that country.  So lets say you choose England.  The airline website thinks you are in England and shows you different prices than they show people in the USA. Usually much cheaper. So he books his tickets that way and says he has never had a problem.   I haven't tried yet.  

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, commodore2010 said:

Another interesting way to find low fares. 

A friend of mine uses a VPN network on his PC to mask his location. You can choose from 50 or so countries and the airline site thinks you are in that country.  So lets say you choose England.  The airline website thinks you are in England and shows you different prices than they show people in the USA. Usually much cheaper. So he books his tickets that way and says he has never had a problem.   I haven't tried yet.  

 

 

 

There can be BIG problems if they discover you .    Fares are very specific  for countries and  you might  read the  contract closely.

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17 minutes ago, commodore2010 said:

Another interesting way to find low fares. 

A friend of mine uses a VPN network on his PC to mask his location. You can choose from 50 or so countries and the airline site thinks you are in that country.  So lets say you choose England.  The airline website thinks you are in England and shows you different prices than they show people in the USA. Usually much cheaper. So he books his tickets that way and says he has never had a problem.   I haven't tried yet.  

 

 

 

Actually, you can have ITA Matrix search fares by purchase in country of flight origin. Not that it will do you any good when you purchase. (That VPN trick will void your contract with the airline).

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I know the carriage of contract always has that catch all phrase

 

"and anything the airline believes,  blah blah blah that manipulates fare and ticket rules."

 

that is also applicable to hidden cities and throwaway segments.   I have never heard of anyone getting caught in any of these circumstances.  Any of you guys?

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3 minutes ago, commodore2010 said:

 I have never heard of anyone getting caught in any of these circumstances.  Any of you guys?

 

Let me pose a thought problem:

 

You do some "tricks" that violate the contract of carriage.  The airline comes down on you.

 

What's the likelihood that you would publicly admit that you did something that backfired on you and cost in the end?  (Even with some anonymity on a forum such as CC).

 

People love bragging when it shows how "smart" they are....but you don't see the reverse.

 

And, FWIW, Delta has an actual "Revenue Protection Unit" that goes after abuses of their system.  UA and AA have similar groups as well.

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1 hour ago, commodore2010 said:

I know the carriage of contract always has that catch all phrase

 

"and anything the airline believes,  blah blah blah that manipulates fare and ticket rules."

 

that is also applicable to hidden cities and throwaway segments.   I have never heard of anyone getting caught in any of these circumstances.  Any of you guys?

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/lufthansa-sues-passenger-scli-intl/index.html

 

 

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Delta took action several years ago against some people I knew. One way tickets between ORD-ATL were cheaper than ORD- Louisville. One of the planes stopped in Louisville. Carry on bags and off in Louisville. Since many of them were doing it weekly, it wasn’t hard to catch. It was still while miles were awarded by miles traveled, not money paid. 

 

I don’t remember what all happened, but I do know they all lost their ff accounts and all the miles accumulated in them after the crack down as part of the penalty.

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Hi Folks - This is a great thread and I've picked up tons of good info and insight from everyone's comments already.  I do have a question that I haven't quite seen discussed yet.  Perhaps I've missed it, and I apologize n advance, for any redundancy.  For now, this is a "hypothetical".

 

Let's assume that I've already booked an "O" TA that starts in Rome and ends in Miami.  I'm not (at least for now) planning on taking or upgrading O's air to Business Class.  Rather,  I'm just booking with "O" at the "no air" fare rate and arranging/paying for my own flights.  So, I go online (travelocity) and "plug in" a "dummy booking" for a B/C flight from PHX to FCO on Delta on Mar 10, 2020 and I get a one-way B/C fare of $9,196. Yes, "Totally Outrageous"! I then instead, make it a R/T Business Class booking, leaving PHX on March 10 and returning from FCO to PHX on Mar 17.  The R/T fare is now only $4,020 - less than half of the O/W fare.

 

What, if anything, would prevent me from (legally) buying that R/T ticket at less than half the O/W cost and only using the "outbound" portion of the itinerary..... flying to Rome to pick up the ship (No, this not an actual sailing/itinerary/date - so don't waste time looking for it)? With this idea/scenario I'm simply going to "throw away" (not use) the return portion of the booking (from FCO back to PHX).

 

I'm certain that on that 17th return flight, that my "unsused seat" will be filled by someone else (an upgrade, etc.).  No FF miles are being used used and I am not involving a DL FF program in any wayy.  For all Delta knows, I got violently ill and didn't feel like flying back home on the 17th....or I got wiped out in a 20-car pileup on the Autostrada!  Are there any "down-sides" to this approach of getting a relatively cheap B/C seat (O/W) to Rome?  Thanks in advance for all thoughts.  Best Regards. 

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As long as you don’t do it regularly, no down side at all.

 

Watch ita matrix. Those one way fares often rationalize within about 6 months of flight time.

 

I remember watching fares for a Miami- Rio cruise. It was about 4 months out before the airlines rationalized one way fares back from Rio.

Edited by pinotlover

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27 minutes ago, pingpong1 said:

Hi Folks - This is a great thread and I've picked up tons of good info and insight from everyone's comments already.  I do have a question that I haven't quite seen discussed yet.  Perhaps I've missed it, and I apologize n advance, for any redundancy.  For now, this is a "hypothetical".

 

Let's assume that I've already booked an "O" TA that starts in Rome and ends in Miami.  I'm not (at least for now) planning on taking or upgrading O's air to Business Class.  Rather,  I'm just booking with "O" at the "no air" fare rate and arranging/paying for my own flights.  So, I go online (travelocity) and "plug in" a "dummy booking" for a B/C flight from PHX to FCO on Delta on Mar 10, 2020 and I get a one-way B/C fare of $9,196. Yes, "Totally Outrageous"! I then instead, make it a R/T Business Class booking, leaving PHX on March 10 and returning from FCO to PHX on Mar 17.  The R/T fare is now only $4,020 - less than half of the O/W fare.

 

What, if anything, would prevent me from (legally) buying that R/T ticket at less than half the O/W cost and only using the "outbound" portion of the itinerary..... flying to Rome to pick up the ship (No, this not an actual sailing/itinerary/date - so don't waste time looking for it)? With this idea/scenario I'm simply going to "throw away" (not use) the return portion of the booking (from FCO back to PHX).

 

I'm certain that on that 17th return flight, that my "unsused seat" will be filled by someone else (an upgrade, etc.).  No FF miles are being used used and I am not involving a DL FF program in any wayy.  For all Delta knows, I got violently ill and didn't feel like flying back home on the 17th....or I got wiped out in a 20-car pileup on the Autostrada!  Are there any "down-sides" to this approach of getting a relatively cheap B/C seat (O/W) to Rome?  Thanks in advance for all thoughts.  Best Regards. 

pinotlover is mostly correct but, you used the word legally and what you are doing is against all airlines rules and you could be removed from their FF program and had all your earned miles removed and they could even file suit against you to collect the fare for the true one way ticket.  While it is unlikely they would find your transgression if you only do it a single time the possibility is there.  You are correct about extenuating circumstances causing you to miss your return and that would probably satisfy the airline if they found your violation however you could not prove the extenuating circumstances and they would have you.

 

An extremely similar discussion is currently on another cruise line board and the question was asked if anyone had run afoul with this and several examples were provided of people being caught.  Also the comment was made that people caught are unlikely to tell other of their transgressions.  Only you can decide if you want to chance this.

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rallydave: I would book the RT with a longer return date, say a month. After you get back home from the cruise, call the airline and cancel the return flight. But just not showing up for a flight is what could potentially get you in trouble.

 

You might look on flyertalk for discussions about using this strategy to save money on one way tickets.

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6 minutes ago, susiesan said:

rallydave: I would book the RT with a longer return date, say a month. After you get back home from the cruise, call the airline and cancel the return flight. But just not showing up for a flight is what could potentially get you in trouble.

 

You might look on flyertalk for discussions about using this strategy to save money on one way tickets.

Thanks susiesan for that idea but, think that would be letting the airline in on how you went around their rules and would think they would simply bill you for the additional fare for the one-way flight and if you didn't pay move on with other measures.  Guess you could tell them when you call that you had an emergency and took another flight home and hope they don't ask for proof.  Simply canceling sure would seem to open Pandora box for the airline to try to recoup the full one way fare.

 

Can certainly look on flyertalk and will but, would think it better for a one time effort, mum would be the word??

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1 hour ago, pingpong1 said:

Hi Folks - This is a great thread and I've picked up tons of good info and insight from everyone's comments already.  I do have a question that I haven't quite seen discussed yet.  Perhaps I've missed it, and I apologize n advance, for any redundancy.  For now, this is a "hypothetical".

 

Let's assume that I've already booked an "O" TA that starts in Rome and ends in Miami.  I'm not (at least for now) planning on taking or upgrading O's air to Business Class.  Rather,  I'm just booking with "O" at the "no air" fare rate and arranging/paying for my own flights.  So, I go online (travelocity) and "plug in" a "dummy booking" for a B/C flight from PHX to FCO on Delta on Mar 10, 2020 and I get a one-way B/C fare of $9,196. Yes, "Totally Outrageous"! I then instead, make it a R/T Business Class booking, leaving PHX on March 10 and returning from FCO to PHX on Mar 17.  The R/T fare is now only $4,020 - less than half of the O/W fare.

 

What, if anything, would prevent me from (legally) buying that R/T ticket at less than half the O/W cost and only using the "outbound" portion of the itinerary..... flying to Rome to pick up the ship (No, this not an actual sailing/itinerary/date - so don't waste time looking for it)? With this idea/scenario I'm simply going to "throw away" (not use) the return portion of the booking (from FCO back to PHX).

 

I'm certain that on that 17th return flight, that my "unsused seat" will be filled by someone else (an upgrade, etc.).  No FF miles are being used used and I am not involving a DL FF program in any wayy.  For all Delta knows, I got violently ill and didn't feel like flying back home on the 17th....or I got wiped out in a 20-car pileup on the Autostrada!  Are there any "down-sides" to this approach of getting a relatively cheap B/C seat (O/W) to Rome?  Thanks in advance for all thoughts.  Best Regards. 

When AA or UA have mile sales,  it sometimes works to buy the miles for one ways. FF mile flights are priced as one ways. With AA try to use them on Iberia, to avoid the high taxes involving Heathrow.

 

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34 minutes ago, rallydave said:

Thanks susiesan for that idea but, think that would be letting the airline in on how you went around their rules and would think they would simply bill you for the additional fare for the one-way flight and if you didn't pay move on with other measures.  Guess you could tell them when you call that you had an emergency and took another flight home and hope they don't ask for proof.  Simply canceling sure would seem to open Pandora box for the airline to try to recoup the full one way fare.

 

Can certainly look on flyertalk and will but, would think it better for a one time effort, mum would be the word??

 

As the sum of the fare goes up, there is a greater incentive for the airlines " revenue protection" people to step in  Stiffing the airline flying CVG to ATL   may be only a 100 or $200 a time.    However on flying STL to Africa may be a $5000 difference.!

I confess I did something  like that Flying PPT to LAX    a one way was $3980 business,    but booking a Business PPT-LAX  with a return LAX-PPT in cheap econ  went for $1859. !!!   

 

  In today's  market where the airlines are tightening the screws in Miles and seas, and revenue awareness...things  which  were not worth the time, now are. ADD in the AI computer algorithms that they  most surely be developing and tens of  thousands of tickets can get scan checked every hour.     Thats NOW  

 

Just like DNA is being used to solve 40 -50 year old crimes ! Computers are being, I suspect, honed to insure the airline gets every cent it can.   They dont have to sue... just bill you legally.... and then cancel your FF account and its miles, maybe worth tens of thousands you spent on !!!

Bite the bullet.........   Play fair and while it may hurt, remember it could hurt far worse

I once saw a couple have their tickets pulled by united  they had a police officer with the agent and were going to charge the couple with fraud if they put up a stink.    It can happen to you......any of  us when we think we are smarter than they are  

I enclose  a picture of United's  new  head of Revenue Protection"   Mr  Ben Dover.hawaii56.thumb.jpg.330966b1ace3c86c6810292b2bfe0ef3.jpg

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34 minutes ago, buggins0402 said:

When AA or UA have mile sales,  it sometimes works to buy the miles for one ways. FF mile flights are priced as one ways. With AA try to use them on Iberia, to avoid the high taxes involving Heathrow.

 

People  should know that  tax of flying out of UK on a FF ticket   in  economy  if I remember it was $156pp   in Business  $320.

Moral"  dont fly out of UK on a FF take the Chunnel or ferry to AMS, CDG, ... and save

Your right on the buying miles    around the first of  the year they have sales  where you can buy miles for less than 2 cents@      you could buy 155,000 for $3100.      or 70,000 for $1400 !!!    its far cheaper than getting the miles from spending...

There is one additional trick.   When you get your  free FF ticket  many times UAL will let you buy  replacement miles   say from Europe to LAX   you can get 12000 miles for  2 cents@

Do not forget the special sign up deals that get you 50,000, 80,000 or even 100,000 miles for some credit cards

IT is a game......

Edited by Hawaiidan

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51 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

People  should know that  tax of flying out of UK on a FF ticket   in  economy  if I remember it was $156pp   in Business  $320.

Moral"  dont fly out of UK on a FF take the Chunnel or ferry to AMS, CDG, ... and save

Your right on the buying miles    around the first of  the year they have sales  where you can buy miles for less than 2 cents@      you could buy 155,000 for $3100.      or 70,000 for $1400 !!!    its far cheaper than getting the miles from spending...

There is one additional trick.   When you get your  free FF ticket  many times UAL will let you buy  replacement miles   say from Europe to LAX   you can get 12000 miles for  2 cents@

Do not forget the special sign up deals that get you 50,000, 80,000 or even 100,000 miles for some credit cards

IT is a game......

AA has a sale right now.  265000 for around $4500 plus tax.  That is almost enough for two on AA metal, non saver. 

 

On the original question, about one ways...I think some of the European carriers have cheaper paid one ways from Europe, than to Europe.  Can anyone confirm.  I think I saw this anomaly with Lufthansa. Also, the theoretical question posed was a PHX to FCO in May...wouldn’t it be the reverse needed after a spring TA?

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2 minutes ago, buggins0402 said:

AA has a sale right now.  265000 for around $4500 plus tax.  That is almost enough for two on AA metal, non saver. 

 

On the original question, about one ways...I think some of the European carriers have cheaper paid one ways from Europe, than to Europe.  Can anyone confirm.  I think I saw this anomaly with Lufthansa. Also, the theoretical question posed was a PHX to FCO in May...wouldn’t it be the reverse needed after a spring TA?

 

That is about the highest number of points we've seen offered by AA.

 

For those not yet familiar, AA has a limit of 150k points purchased per person per year, but they have "bonus" points, and this is, I think, as high as the bonus total goes. (I've seen it as low as an extra 40k miles.)

 

I think the "price per point" is generally about the same on these sales, although getting "more" may be somewhat less expensive per point.  But for those trying to accumulate enough points for a "nice" trip, this would be a good time.

 

You might also want to check FlyerTalk.com about awards booking services.
We've found that for a rather modest fee, we can get real assistance getting where we want to go, including in F (with flexibility by a day or so helping considerably).

 

We still have "enough points" to get just about anywhere we want, so we won't buy points *yet*.  But it's always in the back of our minds IF we need them.  And if we find them still useful.

 

One other hint:  We've had much better luck using the AA points on *partner* airlines.  Service and equipment were better, and so was seat availability... thus far...

 

GC

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3 hours ago, pingpong1 said:

With this idea/scenario I'm simply going to "throw away" (not use) the return portion of the booking (from FCO back to PHX).

If you wanted to be completely legal/abide by the intent of the ticketing rules, and you love a bargain --  depending on how long you are allowed to have between outbound & return dates, you could always book a different, eastbound TA for a later date and use the FCO-PHX return portion to get back from that.  OK, this is silly, but it could work. 

 

Or, don't do any cross-pond flights, instead book an eastbound TA to get to Europe for the originally planned westbound TA...would take longer, but might not cost any more lol.

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52 minutes ago, buggins0402 said:

AA has a sale right now.  265000 for around $4500 plus tax.  That is almost enough for two on AA metal, non saver. 

 

 

Hi Buggins - Yes, I did see that sale and have "saved it" to refer back to and possibly "pull the trigger on".  That is one of the most generous/expansive offers I think I've gotten from AA (for buying FF miles) in recent months.  It works out to 2-cents a mile.  One of AA's "financial wiz's" has probably figured out that it's better for them to get "today's money" now and in hand, for future FF travel, then it is to wait until later for "future possible revenue".

 

I just might take them up on "maxing out" those FF miles (265K).  Those new miles, along with what I have stored now, would be enought for the 2 BC one-way tickets to FCO.  If I fly (on) AA/BA codeshare directly out of PHX to Europe (on my way to FCO), I have no choice but to go through "dreaded LHR".  Yuck!  Terrible transfers and I avoid Brit Air at all costs (among other things, I can't stand BA's "funky backwards seats" in BC)....(Also don't like BA's "business model" of charging you EXTRA to reserve specific/preferred seating in advance - after they've already wacked you for BC tickets...don't know who the "genius" was who thought that one up!)  But I note that if I select the AA connection through PHL, I can continue on (on a "real" AA flight - not a BA codeshare) directly from PHL to FCO.  And I'm one of the "probably 5 people in the world" who happen to "like" AA and DL, for trips to Europe, as opposed to a host of other choices.

 

Thanks to everyone (including RallyDave, Geezer, HawaiiDan, Susie, et al) for all the good knowledge and thoughts you're sharing! Buying the AA miles (with this most recent "sale") actually works out cheaper for one-way tickets for myself and DW to FCO then using my "hypothetical idea" of buying R/T tickets and "trashing" the return leg.  Again, thanks to all!

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