So called “Service Dogs” on board ships

[rugerdog]

Has any had any experience with being bitten by a dog whilst on a cruise?  I tried using the search feature, but couldn't find any information.

[3rdGenCunarder]

2 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I am not so sure ADA has any standing outside of the US, right?  It might be informative to read the state departments article on requirements for animals.  

 

I think there was a court decision that did extend ADA rules to ships. I'm not certain, but given that service dogs are allowed on cruises, the cruise lines seem to be following ADA rules--certainly they do in terms of accessible cabins.

[3rdGenCunarder]

3 minutes ago, rugerdog said:

Has any had any experience with being bitten by a dog whilst on a cruise?  I tried using the search feature, but couldn't find any information.

 

The search function isn't much help. If someone has been bitten by a dog while on a cruise, I'm willing to bet it wasn't a real service dog. The people who fake it because "rules don't apply to me" also believe their dog shouldn't have any rules/restrictions, and that's when you get the extendable lead stretched out 10 feet, and the dog that jumps up on people, relieves itself wherever it chooses, etc.

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

I am not so sure ADA has any standing outside of the US, right?  It might be informative to read the state departments article on requirements for animals.  

 

1 hour ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I think there was a court decision that did extend ADA rules to ships. I'm not certain, but given that service dogs are allowed on cruises, the cruise lines seem to be following ADA rules--certainly they do in terms of accessible cabins.

Since the cruise ships are "offering accommodations" in the US (while docked in US ports), the SCOTUS has ruled that many, but not all aspects of the ADA apply to foreign flag cruise ships (like offering accessible cabins for the same price as non-accessible similar ones, and modifying construction to allow for accessibility).  However, the court stopped short of requiring foreign ships from adhering to the ADA in instances where it applies solely to the ship's "internal policies and procedures".  So, while it would be illegal to deny a passenger to bring a service dog onboard the ship, it would be possible for the cruise line to delineate areas where service dogs would not be allowed, provided it did not totally eliminate the disabled passenger from using an equivalent service (like if there are two MDR, both serving the same menu, the line could limit service dogs to only one MDR).  This can also get into the restrictions that apply even in the US, where service animals can be denied if their presence or the accommodations made to allow them "significantly alters the nature of the goods and services provided by the business".  For instance, a service dog could be disallowed in certain areas of zoos, if the zoo animals were to react badly to the presence of the dog, or a school dormitory could exclude a service dog if there is an area set aside for those with dog dander allergies.

[Mary229]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

 

Since the cruise ships are "offering accommodations" in the US (while docked in US ports), the SCOTUS has ruled that many, but not all aspects of the ADA apply to foreign flag cruise ships (like offering accessible cabins for the same price as non-accessible similar ones, and modifying construction to allow for accessibility).  However, the court stopped short of requiring foreign ships from adhering to the ADA in instances where it applies solely to the ship's "internal policies and procedures".  So, while it would be illegal to deny a passenger to bring a service dog onboard the ship, it would be possible for the cruise line to delineate areas where service dogs would not be allowed, provided it did not totally eliminate the disabled passenger from using an equivalent service (like if there are two MDR, both serving the same menu, the line could limit service dogs to only one MDR).  This can also get into the restrictions that apply even in the US, where service animals can be denied if their presence or the accommodations made to allow them "significantly alters the nature of the goods and services provided by the business".  For instance, a service dog could be disallowed in certain areas of zoos, if the zoo animals were to react badly to the presence of the dog, or a school dormitory could exclude a service dog if there is an area set aside for those with dog dander allergies.

 

This has been my contention since the beginning.  Allergies.  Why should I suffer allergic reactions?  Perhaps I need to mention my allergies when I book so I am not housed near an animal

[slidergirl]

Carnival Corporation and it's cruise lines were sued and ruled that they MUST abide by the ADA law when they are in US and Territorial ports and waters.  If you want to look up the case, it is DJ No. 202-17M-206 in the DOJ rulings library (or just Google it).  

 

It is up to the proprietor to determine how they will enforce the ESA/Comfort/Therapy dog issue.   They have no choice on how they enforce the ADA for service animals, even miniature horses (dogs and mini horses are the ONLY animals under the law that can be service animals).  Here's the rule about asking: " Public accommodations (e.g. restaurants, theatres, stores, health care facilities), are allowed to ask only two questions to determine if an animal is a service animal:  (1) Do you need the animal because of a disability? and (2) What work or tasks has this animal been trained to perform?  The second question is the key:  If the person is unable to identify the work or tasks that the animal has been trained to perform, then the animal is not a service animal."

Airlines are not covered by the ADA. but another law, the Air Carrier Access Act by the DOT.  That is why they can allow those ESAs..."

The DOT defines a service animal as "any animal that is individually trained or able to provide assistance to a person with a disability; or any animal that assists persons with disabilities by providing emotional support." 

All of the following are acceptable forms of evidence that an animal is indeed a trained service animal § 382.117 (d):

• Credible verbal assurances of a qualified individual with a disability using the animal.
• Identification cards or other written documentation.
• Harnesses or tags to indicate the animal's status."

THIS is why you have so many people abusing the rules.  They get the faux ID card put the harness on the dog (OK for airline), but then expect hotels, restaurants, etc. to bow down to them allow their animal in.  I keep a copy of the ADA regulations at my Front Desk at the hotel.  I have no problem hauling it out and telling someone that the animal they are trying to bring is is NOT permitted (we do not allow pets, only service animals).  I have no problem cancelling their reservation and refunding their money (if I was really nasty, I could not refund, as they tried to bring in an animal when we state everywhere (web, phone agents) that we do NOT the pets) and refer them to another hotel in town who takes pets with a $250 deposit.  When I do have a guest with a service animal, our Housekeeping does a very thorough deep cleaning after the animals departs - several hours worth vs the usual hour for a standard departure clean.   For those who complain or worry about their canine/equine allergies: I have never had a guest come down with an allergic reaction in a room that previously had a service animal in it, nor have I had a guest come down with an allergic reaction from being next door to a service animal or walk down the hallways where a service dog is staying in a room.  When you go to a restaurant and you see a service animal at a table or waiting with it's owner to be seated. do you leave the restaurant because of allergy concerns? 

 

As much as I love Therapy Dogs and the job they do, unfortunately they are not covered under the ADA as a service animal.  

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2019 by slidergirl

[kura]

28 minutes ago, rugerdog said:

Has any had any experience with being bitten by a dog whilst on a cruise?  I tried using the search feature, but couldn't find any information.

I was not bitten but injured by a Dog. I am the OP......as I said in the first post, I was knocked over by this “Service dog”. This happened on a HAL excursion in Taormina in Italy. The bus parked in a parking station and there was only 1 elevator working. Being fit for our ages(70+) my DH and I volunteered to walk up the 7+ floors of a narrow staircase as there were many others who needed the elevator more than us. We were almost at the top when and on a small landing when I saw this dog and owner (who would have probably been only 30+ years old) running up the stairs with lead fully extended. The dog went one side of me and she went the other and down I went. The lady and her dog didn’t stop to see if I was Ok....just kept on running. I was very shaken and sat there for a while....other passengers came to my aid. When I got to the top, I reported the incident to the tour guide and asked her if she could make a report. She told me she couldn’t as the lady was blind and it was a service dog. I told her she wasn’t blind!!......on the bus she sat in the front seat with dark glasses on and had told the guide she had to sit in the front seat. I later photographed her texting and reading on her mobile phone! On other occasions I had also seen her reading and jogging ashore without the dog.

later on the same excursion, I was in a shop and the lady and her dog came in and the dog brushed passed me....I politely asked her to keep her dog away from me as I was still shaken from the fall. Her reply was “ It wasn’t my dog that knocked you down....you are obviously in such poor health that you collapsed on the stairs!!!”

After a lot of insistence I convinced the guide to fill in a report. On returning to the ship I went to Guest Services and reported the incident. By now I had some very sore spots, including a graze across the back of my leg where the lead caught me. I was sent to the Medical Centre at no cost to me. 

Guest Relations were wonderful and there was follow up the next day. I was also told they had a large folder of complaints about this dog from passengers and crew that was being sent to Seattle. They wished that I had reported everything unusual for a service dog I had seen.

In future I will be notifying GR if  I see an out of control dog on board a ship!!

like I said in my OP....I have no objection to properly trained Service dogs. This particular dog was a lovely exuberant animal...a pet.....but NOT a service animal....and had no place on a ship....it was a puppy.....only 12 months old...and behaved like one. I believe everyone should report these animals as they are making it hard for people with a legitimate need for a service dog.

 

[rugerdog]

6 minutes ago, kura said:

I was knocked over by this “Service dog”.

 

I'm so sorry for your experience.  I have seen animals on previous cruises, but never have had any actual interaction with them until this past cruise.  

 

I was in a specialty restaurant and a passenger with a dog were there as well.  As they were walking by my table, they came up behind me, and in a series of very quick events, I ended up having been bitten on the ankle by this animal.  I was startled, shaken, and completely caught by surprise.  I've had dogs all my life and have never been bitten.

 

For the record, the manager of the restaurant sent me to the medical center to be treated.  The doctor ascertained who owned the dog, and received copies of documentation regarding current vaccinations.  My injury was not significant, but I certainly did avoid that animal for the duration of the cruise.

 

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, slidergirl said:

Carnival Corporation and it's cruise lines were sued and ruled that they MUST abide by the ADA law when they are in US and Territorial ports and waters.  If you want to look up the case, it is DJ No. 202-17M-206 in the DOJ rulings library (or just Google it).  

 

Actually, it is a settlement, not a ruling, and it mainly covers again the provision of accessible accommodations, and as a settlement with the DOJ does not override the SCOTUS and their ruling in Specter v NCL.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, rugerdog said:

 

I'm so sorry for your experience.  I have seen animals on previous cruises, but never have had any actual interaction with them until this past cruise.  

 

I was in a specialty restaurant and a passenger with a dog were there as well.  As they were walking by my table, they came up behind me, and in a series of very quick events, I ended up having been bitten on the ankle by this animal.  I was startled, shaken, and completely caught by surprise.  I've had dogs all my life and have never been bitten.

 

For the record, the manager of the restaurant sent me to the medical center to be treated.  The doctor ascertained who owned the dog, and received copies of documentation regarding current vaccinations.  My injury was not significant, but I certainly did avoid that animal for the duration of the cruise.

 

 

Even if that had been a service animal, trained to perform a service task for its owner, the fact the dog bit you was legal reason to require the dog be removed from the premises (the ship), under the definitions of the ADA.

[slidergirl]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

Actually, it is a settlement, not a ruling, and it mainly covers again the provision of accessible accommodations, and as a settlement with the DOJ does not override the SCOTUS and their ruling in Specter v NCL.

I stand corrected.  I was hoping you'd chime in.  But, that said that SCOTUS remanded back to the lower court.  I couldn't find a resolution?  Did NCL drop the appeal?   It was interesting that that suit was about accessibility with wheelchairs/scooters, but was ended up including everything in ADA...

[slidergirl]

30 minutes ago, kura said:

I was not bitten but injured by a Dog. I am the OP......as I said in the first post, I was knocked over by this “Service dog”. This happened on a HAL excursion in Taormina in Italy. The bus parked in a parking station and there was only 1 elevator working. Being fit for our ages(70+) my DH and I volunteered to walk up the 7+ floors of a narrow staircase as there were many others who needed the elevator more than us. We were almost at the top when and on a small landing when I saw this dog and owner (who would have probably been only 30+ years old) running up the stairs with lead fully extended. The dog went one side of me and she went the other and down I went. The lady and her dog didn’t stop to see if I was Ok....just kept on running. I was very shaken and sat there for a while....other passengers came to my aid. When I got to the top, I reported the incident to the tour guide and asked her if she could make a report. She told me she couldn’t as the lady was blind and it was a service dog. I told her she wasn’t blind!!......on the bus she sat in the front seat with dark glasses on and had told the guide she had to sit in the front seat. I later photographed her texting and reading on her mobile phone! On other occasions I had also seen her reading and jogging ashore without the dog.

later on the same excursion, I was in a shop and the lady and her dog came in and the dog brushed passed me....I politely asked her to keep her dog away from me as I was still shaken from the fall. Her reply was “ It wasn’t my dog that knocked you down....you are obviously in such poor health that you collapsed on the stairs!!!”

After a lot of insistence I convinced the guide to fill in a report. On returning to the ship I went to Guest Services and reported the incident. By now I had some very sore spots, including a graze across the back of my leg where the lead caught me. I was sent to the Medical Centre at no cost to me. 

Guest Relations were wonderful and there was follow up the next day. I was also told they had a large folder of complaints about this dog from passengers and crew that was being sent to Seattle. They wished that I had reported everything unusual for a service dog I had seen.

In future I will be notifying GR if  I see an out of control dog on board a ship!!

like I said in my OP....I have no objection to properly trained Service dogs. This particular dog was a lovely exuberant animal...a pet.....but NOT a service animal....and had no place on a ship....it was a puppy.....only 12 months old...and behaved like one. I believe everyone should report these animals as they are making it hard for people with a legitimate need for a service dog.

 

 

Sorry the dog scared you.  I'm a trail runner and encounter people with dogs who don't control them - you can't hear them coming up behind you and whomp!   I'm not sure your particular incident could be put on the ship's back.  You and then other guest were off the ship and not in "jurisdiction" of the ship.   The age of the dog is a little young for a finished service animal.  Not having seen the animal nor knowing the owner, perhaps it was a puppy in training,  Still not an excuse for not being in control of the animal.  

As for the guest being "blind" - hopefully you know that someone who is medically, legally blind, may be able to see.  There are adaptive apps on phones and pads that allow those with limited vision to use them.  I have volunteered for the adaptive ski program at a local resort - there are all levels of blindness and how we help them.  Please do not be so quick to judge a whether or not someone has a disability - some are not readily "visible"...  

[kura]

6 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

 I'm not sure your particular incident could be put on the ship's back.  You and then other guest were off the ship and not in "jurisdiction" of the ship.

I was on a HAL excursion

8 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

As for the guest being "blind" - hopefully you know that someone who is medically, legally blind, may be able to see.  

I DO understand that.....my Mother was legally blind but could see a little. .

9 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

Please do not be so quick to judge a whether or not someone has a disability - some are not readily "visible"...  

11 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

perhaps it was a puppy in training,  

I do realise that some disabilities are not readily visible. My point was that this was NOT a Service animal and these animals on ships make it difficult for those in genuine need. A genuine service animal does not race up stairs with lead extended, fight with other dogs that I also witnessed on this same excursion, is let off the lead in the Crows nest to lick the tables etc.

[rugerdog]

38 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Even if that had been a service animal, trained to perform a service task for its owner, the fact the dog bit you was legal reason to require the dog be removed from the premises (the ship), under the definitions of the ADA.

 

I have no idea the status of the animal, and I am not knowledgeable about service animals, but many other passengers told me that an actual service animal would not have behaved in this manner.  This was a transatlantic crossing, and the incident occurred shortly into the cruise.  I did wonder if the dog had been confined to quarters since I did not see it for a few days.  

[slidergirl]

7 minutes ago, kura said:

I was on a HAL excursion

I DO understand that.....my Mother was legally blind but could see a little. .

 

But, the excursion was on land...  I don't know if the ADA rule would travel with you off the ship.   Other ship excursions will not permit people with scooters or wheelchairs.   Sure, you complained the Guest Services and your medical visit could have been extended to you as a service recovery.  Your complaint alone probably wouldn't have sufficed - the guest could have said she was trying to get some exercise for herself and the animal.  I have a friend who has a service animal - she makes sure he gets regular exercise - letting him run with others at the off-leash dog park.   

 

I'm just trying to add to the conversation.   There is never a solid answer to these issues, unfortunately.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, slidergirl said:

I stand corrected.  I was hoping you'd chime in.  But, that said that SCOTUS remanded back to the lower court.  I couldn't find a resolution?  Did NCL drop the appeal?   It was interesting that that suit was about accessibility with wheelchairs/scooters, but was ended up including everything in ADA...

Actually, NCL and the International Cruise Line Association welcomed the decision as a ruling that clearly clarified the applicability of the ADA, something that had been up in the air previously.

[slidergirl]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Actually, NCL and the International Cruise Line Association welcomed the decision as a ruling that clearly clarified the applicability of the ADA, something that had been up in the air previously.

thanks.   

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, kura said:

I was on a HAL excursion

I DO understand that.....my Mother was legally blind but could see a little. .

If you read the HAL ticket contract, it specifies the limitation of liability of HAL with regards to excursions, even those sold by HAL for the independent contractors who operate the excursion, including the statement that HAL has no liability for injury when on one of these excursions.

[Miki_moto]

5 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I think (or hope) that most people can recognize a properly trained service dog by its behavior and attention to its owner, and will respond with tact and understanding. Some people may ask you what the dog does for you, but let's hope that's genuine interest in and admiration for the variety of tasks dogs can be trained to do, not a challenge to the legitimacy of the service performed.

 

 

I think we may be on the same Alaskan cruise!  I’ll be the one with the dog - also a power wheelchair but most people clock the dog first.  🙂

 

[Wehwalt]

3 hours ago, slidergirl said:

I stand corrected.  I was hoping you'd chime in.  But, that said that SCOTUS remanded back to the lower court.  I couldn't find a resolution?  Did NCL drop the appeal?   It was interesting that that suit was about accessibility with wheelchairs/scooters, but was ended up including everything in ADA...

 

The case was remanded, and would have returned to the District Court, because some of the plaintiffs' claims had been dismissed, and the Supreme Court reinstated them . So these dismissed claims would have gone back to District Corut for trial.. In practice, given that the plaintiffs likely got what they wanted from the Supreme Court, the case probably settled.

[slidergirl]

43 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

 

The case was remanded, and would have returned to the District Court, because some of the plaintiffs' claims had been dismissed, and the Supreme Court reinstated them . So these dismissed claims would have gone back to District Corut for trial.. In practice, given that the plaintiffs likely got what they wanted from the Supreme Court, the case probably settled.

thanks for the additional info.  

[STI]

I have a "Mobility" dog. She is certified after 1 year of puppy school and then over 2 years of Service Dog school. According to the ADA and  other countries I may be asked "what does your dog do for you?" and my answer must be task specific to my needs. I may not be asked "what is wrong with you" as it violates American confidentially laws..... however I am always happy to explain. We have been on 3 HA cruises with Brigid and have never had a problem with her. SHe is trained to lie down under the table while we are eating. HA provides a "potty" place out on a deck so I can't imagine why any "service dog" would have an accident.

She has been beside me at the pool (NOT in it), gone on excursions including churches, restaurants, sailing ships. We have been to Holland, Norway, Spain, Alaska, and Canada. Holland America has been VERY thorough in vetting us and I don't know how the dogs described in these posts ever got though their process. We have to provide Vet records, certification records, paperwork signed and notarized by authorities in the US so we can get back home. What you described makes me furious. These"fake" service dogs are making it very difficult for those of us who are really dependent on our dogs. "Comfort Dogs" don't qualify as Service Dogs. By the way Brigid has to go through the whole certification test yearly to be sure both she and I are staying up to par. Without her I could not travel. I can't do steps without rails, uneven ground, cobblestones, or anything where I could twist a foot, trip, or loose my balance. If I fall and break the large graft in my leg I would likely lose it. I am so sorry that so many of you have experienced untrained dogs masquerading as service dogs. Real Service Dogs are a God Send.

Here is a picture of Brigid taken while we were in Spain on a Pilgrimage.

[TiogaCruiser]

She’s really tall and beautiful!

[Copper10-8]

2 hours ago, STI said:

 

 

Thank you very much Sister! Brigid is a good lookin' lady! 

[Mary229]

6 hours ago, Copper10-8 said:

9 hours ago, STI said:

I have a "Mobility" dog. She is certified after 1 year of puppy school and then over 2 years of Service Dog school. According to the ADA and  other countries I may be asked "what does your dog do for you?" and my answer must be task specific to my needs. I may not be asked "what is wrong with you" as it violates American confidentially laws..... however I am always happy to explain. We have been on 3 HA cruises with Brigid and have never had a problem with her. SHe is trained to lie down under the table while we are eating. HA provides a "potty" place out on a deck so I can't imagine why any "service dog" would have an accident.

She has been beside me at the pool (NOT in it), gone on excursions including churches, restaurants, sailing ships. We have been to Holland, Norway, Spain, Alaska, and Canada. Holland America has been VERY thorough in vetting us and I don't know how the dogs described in these posts ever got though their process. We have to provide Vet records, certification records, paperwork signed and notarized by authorities in the US so we can get back home. What you described makes me furious. These"fake" service dogs are making it very difficult for those of us who are really dependent on our dogs. "Comfort Dogs" don't qualify as Service Dogs. By the way Brigid has to go through the whole certification test yearly to be sure both she and I are staying up to par. Without her I could not travel. I can't do steps without rails, uneven ground, cobblestones, or anything where I could twist a foot, trip, or loose my balance. If I fall and break the large graft in my leg I would likely lose it. I am so sorry that so many of you have experienced untrained dogs masquerading as service dogs. Real Service Dogs are a God Send.

 

 

This is comforting to hear. Stringent guidelines are necessary for the comfort of all because let's face it - we all have to be together in confined spaces and the greater good must be first and foremost