No church on Sunday

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

 

In Christianity, worship is the act of attributing reverent honor and homage to God.^[1] In the New Testament, various words are used to refer to the term worship. One is proskuneo ("to worship") which means to bow down to God or kings.^[2]

Throughout most of Christianity's history, corporate Christian worship has been liturgical, characterized by prayers and hymns, with texts rooted in, or closely related to, the Scripture, particularly the Psalter; this form of sacramental and ceremonial worship is still practiced by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican churches, as well as some Protestant denominations such as Lutheranism and Methodism. In Evangelicalism, worship is viewed like an act of adoration of God, with a more informal conception.

 

Have you heard of right to assemble peacefully , freedom of speech or freedom of religion ? They were written to protect people like us from people like you who would restrict or eliminate those rights if given the chance . HAL does business in America and is subject to the same laws . I worship in private and in public and have the right to protest  something if I don't like it the same as you , hence this thread that you are writing on .  But I'm not trying to restrict your freedom as you are ours . There are many groups that HAL endorses by giving them space and time to meet and allows the people to know When and Where to meet that are not for profit so it's not only about profit . God help all if cruising becomes only about profit .

 

 

 

Actually, HAL does not abide by the same laws as you do in the US, particularly on their ships, which are not US territory.  So, the question of equal opportunity to religious services is not subject to US law, but to Dutch law.  While not denying your right to religious freedom, within the US, as defined by US law, when outside the country, you are subject to their law.  This would be similar to protesting that you were not given religious freedom in a country with a single, official religion, just because you have that freedom in the US.

 

HAL, and all cruise lines, do not endorse various groups, just because they allow space for meetings.  They allow these meetings as a convenience to the passengers.

[TiogaCruiser]

3 hours ago, rafinmd said:

What's really galling about this is that Ecumenical Interfaith services is one of the services they say Priests will provide:

 

http://www.aos-usa.org/store/pg/40-About-the-Cruise-Ship-Priest-Program-clone.aspx

"

"Basic Services provided by the Cruise Ship Priest:

• Daily Mass for Cruise Passengers
• Weekly Mass for the crew
• Ecumenical or Interfaith services for non-Catholic Passengers
• Pastoral care and visitation to the infirmed for all passengers and crew
• Other religious and spiritual responsibilities as requested "

Crystal provides a Priest on every OCEAN ship (they don't have Priests on the yachts or river boats but I've also never seen a Priest on a HAL yacht or river boat) and Crystal advertises that they do an ecumenical service on "Sundays at Sea" but in fact I've very rarely seen a time when they didn't do it as well on port days.  They have always do  an excellent job.

 

I don't understand why HAL refuses to asks their priest  to perform this basic service.  I know a few take the initiative themseves but not nearly enough.

 

Roy

"

Interesting. When I did South America in March 2018, I boarded right behind the priest. In chatting with him, I asked if he would be leading a non-denominational service also. He replied he would like to and he didn’t know yet, as it wasn’t up to him. He had to take direction from the ship,  and sometimes the direction was to lead, sometimes not. He did invite me to Mass (which I did attend several times).

[whogo]

27 minutes ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

Have you heard of right to assemble peacefully , freedom of speech or freedom of religion ? They were written to protect people like us from people like you who would restrict or eliminate those rights if given the chance .

Who is eliminating any rights? If you think that HAL is required to provide meeting space and a protestant service, you are badly mistaken. HAL has no more obligation to satisfy your religious desires than Walmart does. You are free to complain to HAL, HAL is free to ignore you. My guess is that it is an economic decision and the priest is onboard solely to satisfy some crew members, pleasing some cruisers is a side benefit. HAL will bring on protestant clergy when they bring in more money than a casino dealer, photographer, or spa worker.

 

 

 

 

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, luapram said:

PS.. I am not sure that HAL comps the fare for RC clergy.. I believe that HAL has a very firm policy on non-discrimination and I cannot believe they would single out one denomination over another as beneficiaries of comp fares..

Thats my assumption on this matter without any inside knowledge..

 

About 5 years ago we befriended a Catholic Priest on one of our HAL cruises and occasionally joined him for dinner and/or cocktails.  His regular job was in the office of the NYC Archdiocese.  He told us that it was pretty competitive to get the cruise line assignment which is coveted by many priests for obvious reasons.  The cruise was provided free by HAL although the priest was responsible for his own transportation to and from the ship.  What is interesting is that with over 4000 religions in the world, HAL has chosen to only provide this kind of routine service to Roman Catholic priests.  We  know a rabbi who has been on several HAL cruises and he also cruised free (with his lovely wife)...but this was only provided during a few major Jewish holidays (such as the high holy days).   Whether this is still the current policy is unknown to us.

 

Hank

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

About 5 years ago we befriended a Catholic Priest on one of our HAL cruises and occasionally joined him for dinner and/or cocktails.  His regular job was in the office of the NYC Archdiocese.  He told us that it was pretty competitive to get the cruise line assignment which is coveted by many priests for obvious reasons.  The cruise was provided free by HAL although the priest was responsible for his own transportation to and from the ship.  What is interesting is that with over 4000 religions in the world, HAL has chosen to only provide this kind of routine service to Roman Catholic priests.  We  know a rabbi who has been on several HAL cruises and he also cruised free (with his lovely wife)...but this was only provided during a few major Jewish holidays (such as the high holy days).   Whether this is still the current policy is unknown to us.

 

Hank

I think you misrepresent HAL's attitude here, Hank.  HAL comps the cruises to AOS because AOS requests putting a priest onboard full time.  I'm sure that if a Jewish organization were to request that a rabbi be placed on the ship full time, or a Protestant minister, from a religious organization, that they would be willing to do so.  I believe that in the case of the Protestant minister, they found that the services were underattended compared to the Catholic services, and so they have scaled both Protestant and Jewish services (though Jewish services were never weekly on the ship) to only at times of high holy days.

[scubacruiserx2]

25 minutes ago, whogo said:

Who is eliminating any rights? If you think that HAL is required to provide meeting space and a protestant service, you are badly mistaken. HAL has no more obligation to satisfy your religious desires than Walmart does. You are free to complain to HAL, HAL is free to ignore you. My guess is that it is an economic decision and the priest is onboard solely to satisfy some crew members, pleasing some cruisers is a side benefit. HAL will bring on protestant clergy when they bring in more money than a casino dealer, photographer, or spa worker.

 

 

 

 

 

Anybody who says that we have to cruise on the basis of their rules . We have had 45 cruises and spent $4o K on HAL cruises this year , subject to change . 

 

[scubacruiserx2]

11 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I think you misrepresent HAL's attitude here, Hank.  HAL comps the cruises to AOS because AOS requests putting a priest onboard full time.  I'm sure that if a Jewish organization were to request that a rabbi be placed on the ship full time, or a Protestant minister, from a religious organization, that they would be willing to do so.  I believe that in the case of the Protestant minister, they found that the services were underattended compared to the Catholic services, and so they have scaled both Protestant and Jewish services (though Jewish services were never weekly on the ship) to only at times of high holy days.

 

Our Zaandam service on Sunday filled the place in January . 50% of the people in America are Protestant compared to 23% of Catholics .

[rkacruiser]

3 hours ago, rafinmd said:

"Basic Services provided by the Cruise Ship Priest:

• Daily Mass for Cruise Passengers
• Weekly Mass for the crew
• Ecumenical or Interfaith services for non-Catholic Passengers
• Pastoral care and visitation to the infirmed for all passengers and crew
• Other religious and spiritual responsibilities as requested "

 

As a Protestant, may I add my experience to this important discussion?

 

Embarking a ship on a Sunday, while a Mass would be held, no non-denominational services are likely.  No issue with that what so ever.

 

On long cruises, defined as being in excess of 7 day shorties, a Protestant Minister often was on board:  always?  No,  but the Priest then substituted for one who wasn't.  The non-denominational service that the Priest led ranged in quality from "I can't wait until next Sunday" to "I won't be returning next Sunday.  On my most recent Zaandam long cruise, the Priest had no idea before Saturday night that the CD expected him to lead a non-denominational service the next day.  He did "the best that he could do" on Sunday morning.  The following Sunday, non-ordained, but their local church connected guests, planned and led the service.  Once was enough of that for me.  But, bless their hearts that tried their best.  It was simply not a worship service that is right for me.

 

HAL has employed some truly excellent Pastors in the past.  I remember one, in particular, a Methodist Pastor from Dallas (?) who provided messages on Sunday that were informative, uplifting, and inspiring.  He taught me to be cognizant of the contribution of Fanny Crosby to the Methodist Hymnal.  HAL also employed one DUD.  A Protestant couple on my Christmas/New Year's Cruise where every service--Sunday and Christmas Eve--was a Communion Service with little/to no message.  

 

The lack of a Pastoral care service for those who are not of the Catholic faith on short cruises by HAL, I accept.  For those of us of other denominations and religions, this change by HAL is not one that I happily accept.  But, I do not need any religious leader to communicate with my Heavenly Father.  Simply being at sea, on a dark, cloudless night, how can anyone not be a believer?

 

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

But, I do not need any religious leader to communicate with my Heavenly Father.  Simply being at sea, on a dark, cloudless night, how can anyone not be a believer?

 

 

I'm right there with you.

[kochleffel]

I'm Jewish and trained to officiate at services. There is no Jewish worship service that actually requires an ordained rabbi or cantor, and in some synagogues lay volunteers do most of the service leading even when an ordained rabbi is present. At my local synagogue, lay leaders substitute whenever the rabbi is absent. The lack of a rabbi on cruises doesn't bother me, and I never travel on major holidays when the liturgy is too complex for lay officiation.

 

On cruises, I'm always willing to lead Sabbath services, but almost never do. There is usually someone else who insists on doing it, often a man who feels that it is his duty but who is sometimes not very competent.

 

My understanding is that most Protestant denominations do not require an ordained officiant at every service, either, but many church members prefer to have one. A close friend is a retired minister in a large denomination--that is, retired from full-time church work--who works nearly every Sunday as a supply (substitute) pastor, a different church almost every Sunday.

 

To my mind, the least-served Christians on HAL might be those from other denominations with sacramental liturgies, such as Episcopalian or Orthodox, that a lay officiant can't fully perform, especially if their own churches aren't in communion with Roman Catholicism. And I think that people of any religion would feel the lack of professional clergy more with long itineraries.

[AncientWanderer]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

 

 

The lack of a Pastoral care service for those who are not of the Catholic faith on short cruises by HAL, I accept.  For those of us of other denominations and religions, this change by HAL is not one that I happily accept.  But, I do not need any religious leader to communicate with my Heavenly Father.  Simply being at sea, on a dark, cloudless night, how can anyone not be a believer?

 

 

It's the dark, stormy nights that perhaps concern me more.  On those nights, feeling right with my worship routine could be a real comfort.

[luapram]

2 hours ago, Randyk47 said:

 

The Protestant clergy I talked to said he was being comped.   I distinctly remember the conversation as his wife hadn’t been able to join him in the first cruise of something like four or five in a row.   

That may have been at one time but as I said the need for Non-denominational ministers has been severely curtailed and limited to cruises over Easter,Christmas etc.. 

[DougK]

2 hours ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

But I'm not trying to restrict your freedom as you are ours . There are many groups that HAL endorses by giving them space and time to meet and allows the people to know When and Where to meet that are not for profit so it's not only about profit .

 

 

I haven't seen anybody trying to restrict your freedom here. If you or anybody else puts a group together for whatever reason, whether it's worship, knitting, card playing, etc., I would hope that HAL would make accommodation and provide an appropriate space if one is available. But my understanding is that you're asking for more than space; you're also asking for HAL to provide a minister to lead services. That's a big difference, with a significant expense to HAL, whether by paying the minister, or by comp'ing the cruise. It seems like HAL has chosen to do so for Catholic priests, but I don't think they're required to do so; nor do I think they're required to provide spiritual leaders for other faiths, any more than they're required to provide knitting instructors for a group interested in knitting.

 

My guess is that they're trying to balance the demand against the cost. Perhaps they see more demand for Catholic priests than they do for other ministers; although there are more Protestants than Catholics in the US, they're also divided among many different branches, and it may not be clear (at least to HAL) how well a minister of one Protestant branch would do at serving passengers of other branches. Or perhaps the cost is lower because of support provided by AOS, with there being no comparable organization for other faiths. Or perhaps it's something entirely different; I have no clue.

 

The bottom line is that if you want ministerial services, you'll have to show HAL that there is sufficient demand to warrant the costs. But unless HAL sees such demand, I wouldn't just expect them to provide ministerial services. In the meantime, it seems like your choices are either to survive without organized services while cruising, find another line that provides the clergy you want, or give up cruising.

 

Those are the same choices that we all have to make with regard to a variety of aspects of cruising, whether it be entertainment, dancing, dining/liquor, itinerary, dress code, or something else. Either convince HAL that item has high demand, find another line that provides what we want, or give up cruising. I don't see why religious services would be treated any differently. Obviously, the depth of commitment to religion may be different than other things, but the concept remains the same--HAL is figuring out what combination of services to provide is most cost-effective/profitable to them, based on their perceived demand.

[colbe]

The tone of this thread is why we choose to always sit at two tops in the MDR.

[Randyk47]

18 minutes ago, luapram said:

That may have been at one time but as I said the need for Non-denominational ministers has been severely curtailed and limited to cruises over Easter,Christmas etc.. 

 

For sure.   

[rkacruiser]

19 minutes ago, colbe said:

The tone of this thread is why we choose to always sit at two tops in the MDR.

 

And your contribution further advances our discussion?  

[rkacruiser]

34 minutes ago, DougK said:

The bottom line is that if you want ministerial services, you'll have to show HAL that there is sufficient demand to warrant the costs. But unless HAL sees such demand, I wouldn't just expect them to provide ministerial services.

 

And, what bottom line might be sufficient?  

[cowmilker]

3 hours ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

 

In Christianity, worship is the act of attributing reverent honor and homage to God.^[1] In the New Testament, various words are used to refer to the term worship. One is proskuneo ("to worship") which means to bow down to God or kings.^[2]

Throughout most of Christianity's history, corporate Christian worship has been liturgical, characterized by prayers and hymns, with texts rooted in, or closely related to, the Scripture, particularly the Psalter; this form of sacramental and ceremonial worship is still practiced by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican churches, as well as some Protestant denominations such as Lutheranism and Methodism. In Evangelicalism, worship is viewed like an act of adoration of God, with a more informal conception.

 

Have you heard of right to assemble peacefully , freedom of speech or freedom of religion ? They were written to protect people like us from people like you who would restrict or eliminate those rights if given the chance . HAL does business in America and is subject to the same laws . I worship in private and in public and have the right to protest  something if I don't like it the same as you , hence this thread that you are writing on .  But I'm not trying to restrict your freedom as you are ours . There are many groups that HAL endorses by giving them space and time to meet and allows the people to know When and Where to meet that are not for profit so it's not only about profit . God help all if cruising becomes only about profit .

 

 

 

 I don't see anyone trying to restrict anyone's religious expression at all.

HAL is not a religious organization. It's a business.  If they choose to assist you in your choice of religious expression, well, that's great.  If they don't, well, it's their choice.  Should they offer prayer mats and calls to prayer for Muslim passengers?

The laws doesn't have anything to do with this.

 

[luapram]

45 minutes ago, DougK said:

 

I haven't seen anybody trying to restrict your freedom here. If you or anybody else puts a group together for whatever reason, whether it's worship, knitting, card playing, etc., I would hope that HAL would make accommodation and provide an appropriate space if one is available. But my understanding is that you're asking for more than space; you're also asking for HAL to provide a minister to lead services. That's a big difference, with a significant expense to HAL, whether by paying the minister, or by comp'ing the cruise. It seems like HAL has chosen to do so for Catholic priests, but I don't think they're required to do so; nor do I think they're required to provide spiritual leaders for other faiths, any more than they're required to provide knitting instructors for a group interested in knitting.

 

My guess is that they're trying to balance the demand against the cost. Perhaps they see more demand for Catholic priests than they do for other ministers; although there are more Protestants than Catholics in the US, they're also divided among many different branches, and it may not be clear (at least to HAL) how well a minister of one Protestant branch would do at serving passengers of other branches. Or perhaps the cost is lower because of support provided by AOS, with there being no comparable organization for other faiths. Or perhaps it's something entirely different; I have no clue.

 

The bottom line is that if you want ministerial services, you'll have to show HAL that there is sufficient demand to warrant the costs. But unless HAL sees such demand, I wouldn't just expect them to provide ministerial services. In the meantime, it seems like your choices are either to survive without organized services while cruising, find another line that provides the clergy you want, or give up cruising.

 

Those are the same choices that we all have to make with regard to a variety of aspects of cruising, whether it be entertainment, dancing, dining/liquor, itinerary, dress code, or something else. Either convince HAL that item has high demand, find another line that provides what we want, or give up cruising. I don't see why religious services would be treated any differently. Obviously, the depth of commitment to religion may be different than other things, but the concept remains the same--HAL is figuring out what combination of services to provide is most cost-effective/profitable to them, based on their perceived demand.

Can  I respectfully remind you that HAL does not supply RC Priests for their cruises .They are supplied and booked by ‘Apostles of the Seas’ Now if Hal pay or Comp their Fare I do not know.. The difference between RC & Non-Denominational ministers is that RC clergy conduct daily services onboard and other denominations do not...  There are many other groups on HAL ships that HAL provides space for.... and I for one,applaud them for doing so.. If an outside group want to book space for and supply Non-denominational clergy and operate on same basis that Apostles of the Seas do,then I am sure HAL would grant them same terms that AOS have... I am not sure that services for other denominations would be held on same regularity that RC do and therein lies the difference.. Also the fact that services other than RC services do not require ordained ministers,contribute to the differences in the two services.. This is why on most ships -non-denominational services can be can be conducted ad-lib and often by voluntary folk..

 

[HAL4NOW]

We were cruising on the Zaandam last April, during the Easter Season. HAL had a priest on board from AOS, but he died a few days into the cruise. He had been planning on assisting in congregationally led interdenominational services, but obviously could not carry out that plan. Guest Services accommodated the needs of both Catholic and Protestant passengers to the best of their ability. They were flexible in providing space (the Hudson Room most of the time) and in addition to the Sunday interdenominational services a Maundy Thursday service and an Easter Sunrise service (6:00 AM) were added. The Hudson room was packed with 45-50 guests for each interdenominational service. The Catholic group couldn't have mass each day because a qualified priest wasn't available, but they continued to meet each day for prayer and readings. There were between 5 and 10 in attendance at most of the Catholic gatherings.

HAL no longer assigns ministers for protestant interdenominational services, except for "Grand World Voyages and Legendary Voyages" according to some correspondence I received from Guest Staff personnel. 

 

[slidergirl]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

And, what bottom line might be sufficient?  

Put a notice on your Roll Call to see if anyone has interest in a service.  Put in a call to Guest Services (or whatever the land version is called).  Say you want a room for a non-denominational Christian worship service and ask that the priest who will be onboard conduct the service.  Do it enough times and maybe HAL will do it.  

 

I do not need a formal setting and an officiant for me to worship.  I am open enough that, if a Mass or even a Jewish service is available, I am happy to reverently sit in and be a silent part of the service.  Providing, of course, that they are open to a Protestant attending.   I was raised that, if my church is unavailable, it is perfectly acceptable to attend any house of worship that welcomes me and if no church available, I am capable of making my personal service and connection.   Open and with others worship is not required, even the Bible says so.

 

No cruise line is required to provide religious officiants for anyone.  HAL may still because it is a tiny tradition that costs not too much (a thousand or so per cruise) and that The Netherlands is still a largely Catholic country, although the majority is secular.  Catholicism is still the majority religion.

 

[AncientWanderer]

So did we determine what is to be expected per the promotional materials?  A Catholic priest who will also do nondenominational services?  As well as a rabbi if there are Jewish religious holidays during the cruise?

 

Obviously unless something goes wrong.  Hal4Now's story at post 45 was so sad about the priest passing away onboard.  

[scubacruiserx2]

One of our major points was not only who but when . The assigned time was on a Saturday not a Sunday . Sunday is when we worship communally and this as well as how as been changed . It hurt HAL at all to at least acknowledge the proper day for us - not the Sabbath .

[billbunger]

7 hours ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

 

In Christianity, worship is the act of attributing reverent honor and homage to God.^[1] In the New Testament, various words are used to refer to the term worship. One is proskuneo ("to worship") which means to bow down to God or kings.^[2]

Throughout most of Christianity's history, corporate Christian worship has been liturgical, characterized by prayers and hymns, with texts rooted in, or closely related to, the Scripture, particularly the Psalter; this form of sacramental and ceremonial worship is still practiced by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican churches, as well as some Protestant denominations such as Lutheranism and Methodism. In Evangelicalism, worship is viewed like an act of adoration of God, with a more informal conception.

 

Have you heard of right to assemble peacefully , freedom of speech or freedom of religion ? 

 

 

Excuse me but, stop preaching to me and others on this board, HAL  is not obligated to support any religion. For you to tell me time should be set aside to observe your religious beliefs is just so much hooey. Take your religion with you where ever you go but don’t expect me and others to observe your dogma. 

[AncientWanderer]

6 hours ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

One of our major points was not only who but when . The assigned time was on a Saturday not a Sunday . Sunday is when we worship communally and this as well as how as been changed . It hurt HAL at all to at least acknowledge the proper day for us - not the Sabbath .

 

Yeah.  It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to expect a Sunday service on a cruise ship.  Cruise ships do provide most all the amenities you'd find in a small town -- health care, laundry, restaurants, cocktail lounges, entertainment venues.  Church on Sunday could reasonably be expected to be part of that mix, IMHO.  

And that's the end of my contribution to this thread, since it kind of segued into the forbidden "politics and religion" territory.