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2 hours ago, bEwAbG said:

 

.  .  .  What if the volunteer requests that it be moved to Saturday?  There are 101 reasons why this could be happening on any individual sailing.  .  .   I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any semblance of a majority who would insist that you can only have a church service on Sunday.

 

The volunteers usually feel blessed to get a time and place provided by HAL.  They are not in a position to choose the details.  Surprises get lived with.

Saturday is the Sabbath.  Sunday is the Lord's Day.

Certainly we Protestants feel envious that the Catholics can count on so many services.  However, we are thankful to get a place and a time on Sunday.

Barbara

 

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Perhaps I have missed this bit of information on this thread, but HAL does have a room on its ships to serve those of the crew of the Muslim faith.  It's their Mosque.  

 

I do appreciate those who posted that we Protestants could attend a Catholic service if we wished.  I never have (while I often find the Priest on-board to be a most interesting fellow with very good stories).  Why?  I guess I think I would feel "uncomfortable" in attending a Catholic service.  Reflecting on this thread, my potential "uncomfortable" feeling is silly.

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On 6/23/2019 at 4:07 PM, scubacruiserx2 said:

Have you heard of right to assemble peacefully , freedom of speech or freedom of religion ? They were written to protect people like us from people like you who would restrict or eliminate those rights if given the chance . HAL does business in America and is subject to the same laws .

 

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution prohibits Congress from interfering with the right of the people to assemble peacefully and from abridging the freedom of speech or of religion.  It has absolutely no bearing on what a private company may do on its premises.  HAL has no obligation to provide clerics of any denomination on its ships, nor any space for passengers to "assemble" and worship together.   That it may have chosen to do so is a voluntary decision on its part.   One may have opinions on whether HAL should continue to do so or not, but the Constitution has no relevance here.

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I am wondering if the Muslim passengers are welcome to worship downstairs in the crew's Mosque room?

Barbara

 

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2 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

Perhaps I have missed this bit of information on this thread, but HAL does have a room on its ships to serve those of the crew of the Muslim faith.  It's their Mosque.  

 

I do appreciate those who posted that we Protestants could attend a Catholic service if we wished.  I never have (while I often find the Priest on-board to be a most interesting fellow with very good stories).  Why?  I guess I think I would feel "uncomfortable" in attending a Catholic service.  Reflecting on this thread, my potential "uncomfortable" feeling is silly.

Ever since my childhood church did a kids' series on different religions, I've been very comfortable in just about all religious settings (each Sunday, they took us to a different church for a service and on Saturday we drove 45 minutes to the nearest synagogue).  It did teach me that God is everywhere and we can be reverent wherever.  I find Catholics Mass very interesting from the standpoint of the very solid rituals.  And, sermons/homilies are good everywhere.  You should try it once!  

On the shofar - back in 1977, I helped my History of the Jews professor at UCLA conduct the first major survey of the Los Angeles area Jewish community.  Facinating.  I still remember one of the questions: "I am moved by the sound of the shofar."  I ended up buying a shofar in Jerusalem on a trip.  It is a valued souvenir of that trip to Israel.   

If you want "uncomfortable", try an Evangelical church that practices The Toronto Blessing...  😮

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On 6/24/2019 at 7:56 PM, Petronillus said:

Yes, I can understand the sadness. But I can also imagine that if the priest had been able to orchestrate his own passing, he might have placed it on a cruise ship!

 

I think you are right about the priest.  I would much rather die peacefully on a cruise ship than in a hospital.  If I could choose my way to die, it would be lying on a lounger on the promenade deck,  having just finished a good martini and watching the sunset, and then just fall asleep.  We don't get to choose how we come into this world, but it would be nice to choose how we leave it.  

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Posted (edited)

In my previous cruising experience, I did not remember seeing mass advertised daily, yet I saw it advertised every day on the When & Where. Additionally, HAL seems to offer more religious centred excursions than other cruise lines we have been on. Perhaps it was due to the sites that we visited (eg. Ephesus in Turkey) or what was offered to HAL by local tour operators, but I have never seen biblical excursions on offer before. 

 

Though it does not personally affect me if religious services are offered or not, I do hope that there are services available to all that may require them on board, from all religions. If there is mass being offered to Catholic passengers, I hope a mosque is made available to Muslim passengers, and that an nondenominational service is available to all. However, I do wonder what the attendance levels to such services are. Perhaps attendance is such that HAL can no longer justify having someone on board specifically to perform these services, and this is why they have asked the congregation to lead the service?

Edited by simplyrubies

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13 hours ago, Turtles06 said:

 

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution prohibits Congress from interfering with the right of the people to assemble peacefully and from abridging the freedom of speech or of religion.  It has absolutely no bearing on what a private company may do on its premises.  HAL has no obligation to provide clerics of any denomination on its ships, nor any space for passengers to "assemble" and worship together.   That it may have chosen to do so is a voluntary decision on its part.   One may have opinions on whether HAL should continue to do so or not, but the Constitution has no relevance here.

True, and even if someone could make a case that the First Amendment did apply, the ships are not American flagged so that would end their reasoning very quickly.

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21 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

True, and even if someone could make a case that the First Amendment did apply, the ships are not American flagged so that would end their reasoning very quickly.

 

I didn't even want to get into that complexity.  😉

 

(PS:  Monticello!  I have such fond memories of Katz's Bakery...)

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FWIW, a Catholic service is held in my apartment building in NYC for those unable to attend mass because of illness or other reasons on the first FRIDAY of the month, so Sunday seems beside the point even to the church.

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The church, the Catholic Church, does not speak for other denominations.

Barbara

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2 hours ago, Turtles06 said:

 

I didn't even want to get into that complexity.  😉

 

(PS:  Monticello!  I have such fond memories of Katz's Bakery...)

Katz's Bakery no longer exists. It's truly a shame how many empty storefronts are now on Broadway in Monticello.

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1 minute ago, ontheweb said:

Katz's Bakery no longer exists. It's truly a shame how many empty storefronts are now on Broadway in Monticello.

 

Yes, thanks, I knew that (I should have said so).  The economic situation is a sad one.

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2 minutes ago, Turtles06 said:

 

Yes, thanks, I knew that (I should have said so).  The economic situation is a sad one.

Blame the county leaders for the economic situation. For years and years, all they pursued was a casino. It was the be all and end all of economic development. Now they have one, and it is losing money hand and foot. As for economic development since the opening of the casino, so far one diner in Monticello has closed, Staples has closed their Monticello store, and a bank has closed its Monticello branch.

 

The economic development that is going on in the county is on the Route 17B corridor because of Bethel Woods, the site of the original Woodstock festival. And for years and years, while the local tourist economy tanked, everything that could be done to stop people from visiting the one site that still attracted people was done by the county and local leaders. And then the county billionaire (he invented cable television) bought the site, and of course the leaders of the county all changed their ways.

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22 hours ago, bcummin said:

I am wondering if the Muslim passengers are welcome to worship downstairs in the crew's Mosque room?

Barbara

 

 

Your question is an excellent one,  Thanks for posting it.  And, the answer is......?

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Copper-10 and Captain Albert and a few others might know.

Barbara

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On 6/25/2019 at 7:45 PM, slidergirl said:

Ever since my childhood church did a kids' series on different religions, I've been very comfortable in just about all religious settings (each Sunday, they took us to a different church for a service and on Saturday we drove 45 minutes to the nearest synagogue).  It did teach me that God is everywhere and we can be reverent wherever.  I find Catholics Mass very interesting from the standpoint of the very solid rituals.  And, sermons/homilies are good everywhere.  You should try it once!  

On the shofar - back in 1977, I helped my History of the Jews professor at UCLA conduct the first major survey of the Los Angeles area Jewish community.  Facinating.  I still remember one of the questions: "I am moved by the sound of the shofar."  I ended up buying a shofar in Jerusalem on a trip.  It is a valued souvenir of that trip to Israel.   

If you want "uncomfortable", try an Evangelical church that practices The Toronto Blessing...  😮

My husband is Jewish and I am Christian. He's not a member of a synagogue, but we occasionally get to participate in Jewish events. I'm a member of a Community Evangelical interdenominational church and he occasionally attends events with me. We were on a cruise during Chanukah and one evening my presence meant they had a minyan and could hold the service. In my opinion opening up ourselves to exposure to other religions and peoples not only encourages understanding and cooperation, but can very well strengthen ourselves. 

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6 hours ago, Marigold252 said:

My husband is Jewish and I am Christian. He's not a member of a synagogue, but we occasionally get to participate in Jewish events. I'm a member of a Community Evangelical interdenominational church and he occasionally attends events with me. We were on a cruise during Chanukah and one evening my presence meant they had a minyan and could hold the service. In my opinion opening up ourselves to exposure to other religions and peoples not only encourages understanding and cooperation, but can very well strengthen ourselves. 

This is a truly wonderful post.

 

And also the first mention of a minyan, which is necessary for a Jewish service.

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With so many "true" religions in the world today and lots of people looking for a reason to be discriminated against or offended by a perceived slight, I would think the cruise lines would do well to stay out of the church business.  

 

When I am fortunate enough to be on the high seas on a Sunday, a cup of coffee somewhere on the promenade and some quiet reflection to be in and savor the moment is all that I need.  I don't need to have my " church service" card punched in order to feel good about myself.

 

 

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On 6/23/2019 at 10:07 PM, scubacruiserx2 said:

Have you heard of right to assemble peacefully , freedom of speech or freedom of religion ? They were written to protect people like us from people like you who would restrict or eliminate those rights if given the chance . HAL does business in America and is subject to the same laws .

 

As explained by The Chief, HAL is simply not subject to US laws (to a certain extent) .

 

Moreover, (IANAL), I'm sure the US rights you mention are meant to restrict the government, not a company or individual. Me and my friends cannot have a party in your living room because we have a right to assemble, I cannot mention travel agents on this site, and I cannot have a service to worship Zeus in your house. Unless you say it's OK.

 

Your government, however, cannot forbid a Protestant, Gay or knitting cruise. That's the only protection you have, and Dutch law is very similar in that regard.

 

 

On 6/23/2019 at 10:07 PM, scubacruiserx2 said:

God help all if cruising becomes only about profit .

 

Yeah, cruising was originally meant to be some sort of a charity, to help couples to refind their love outside their daily business, to give people a new perspective, to actually learn about different cultures. We'd be doomed if the cruise industry turns out to be all about earning money for their shareholders. 

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