Family's statement on toddler's cruise death

[NightOne]

19 hours ago, JennyB1977 said:

@NightOne Yes, every time it's been mentioned, it's gotten deleted. I actually thought the thread that was longest seemed about the same as this one....

 

Well that is pretty sad. I wonder what the reasoning behind that it. I mean it doesn't seem like arguing, fighting, etc. would be the cause because they can moderate that. That sounds like a "corporate" decision. 😉

[NightOne]

Regarding the Grandpa:

 

I don't see any positive whatsoever for any party by sending the Grandpa to jail for any amount of time. He already has to live with what he did and unless I hear contradictory evidence I would conclude that it was just 100% an accident. Was it preventable? Sure, but isn't EVERY accident preventable.

 

Now if the Grandpa was drinking/impaired or was negligent in another manner it would be a different story.

 

I just don't see where putting him in jail helps anyone including the public. (Even though he is solely at fault)

[GeezerCouple]

1 hour ago, UFMOM said:

 

While we are talking about accidentally leaving children in cars, I just want to mention that there is a new initiative for women to put their purse in the back seat so it forces them to look back there to retrieve their purse. It was started by a woman who actually did leave her child and lost them.  Not sure what would work for men, maybe a briefcase if they use one. Know this is off topic,  but wanted to get it out there. My daughter does this now with my granddaughter and so do I. 

 

Mary Ann

 

I just read that part of that movement was to leave something one would NOT forget (not that one expects anyone to forget a CHILD, but never mind that....) such as a purse, briefcase, or ONE SHOE, presumably one that isn't ordinarily used during driving.  (Do manual transmission cars still have a pedal clutch, or is that elsewhere these days?   I haven't driving an "only manual" transmission car in decades; our cars now have an *optional* "manual-type" transmission with little [what do they call 'em] on the steering wheel, to shift up or  down one at a time, etc.)

 

There was also just a mother who inadvertently left 2(?) young children in the car when accidentally locking her keys in the car.

But SHE REALIZED what happened, and called the police, who broke the car window, opened the door, and rescued the children.

THAT was indeed an accident, but she was *not* oblivious to and/or did not forget about those children.  I'm assuming she was *not* charged, but don't know for sure.

 

ETA:  Just read that NLH Arizona mentioned leaving a shoe on the backseat.  Or how about IN the child seat, further reinforcing looking THERE all the time...

 

GC

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by GeezerCouple

[ColinIllinois]

1 hour ago, PTC DAWG said:

Wow, talk about veering off topic.  

 

It's been off topic since it was posted on the NCL forum.

[GeezerCouple]

1 hour ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Leaving your phone on the back seat would work for both sexes and helps to fight that urge to read any new message as it arrives while driving a car.

 

I would NOT recommend leaving a phone where IT could so easily get locked in.

See above where I mention recent episode where mother locked  children in car bur REALIZED it and phoned the police...!

 

GC

[AmazedByCruising]

2 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

I would NOT recommend leaving a phone where IT could so easily get locked in.

See above where I mention recent episode where mother locked  children in car bur REALIZED it and phoned the police...!

 

There's not a phone within yards everywhere, everytime?

[mjkacmom]

7 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

There's not a phone within yards everywhere, everytime?

No there is not. There were many times I’d run errands with my kids, and have to drop things off in people’s mailboxes. During the day, many people aren’t home, and some won’t open their doors to strangers. My friend locked her phone and nephew in a car, but luckily in a friend’s driveway and the friend was home (she was coming to visit). Fortunately response time in my town is usually under one minute.

[WickedRed]

1 hour ago, GeezerCouple said:

 

  (Do manual transmission cars still have a pedal clutch, or is that elsewhere these days?   I haven't driving an "only manual" transmission car in decades; our cars now have an *optional* "manual-type" transmission with little [what do they call 'em] on the steering wheel, to shift up or  down one at a time, etc.)

 

 

Yes manual transmission cars still have a pedal clutch. 

[ash2bear]

3 hours ago, smplybcause said:

 

Considering you have adult children - it possibly wasn't brought up because the two bigger catalysts for the uptick in child car deaths weren't prominent or a law then. The uptick occurred after 1) young children were removed from the front seat after it was discovered that airbags could severely injure them followed by 2) the revelation that backwards car seats are safer for smaller children. 

I have 3 children(teenagers) who all rode in the backseat and were in rear facing car seats until they were past their first birthday.  I worked and had to drop them off at daycare. Never once forgot they were with me. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by ash2bear

[smplybcause]

2 minutes ago, ash2bear said:

I have 3 children(teenagers) who all rode in the backseat and were in rear facing car seats until they were past their first birthday.  I worked and had to drop them off at daycare. Never once forgot they were with me. 

 

Considering there's only a small number of deaths from that, most never forget their children or don't forget them long enough to cause harm. That doesn't necessarily mean those that do are horrible parents. If you read the articles with the science that goes into the whys of how this could happen, it's quite interesting and scary to a certain point. It's often with these tragedies that it's the parent who doesn't regularly drop the kids off at daycare had them but the "autopilot" took over. I have arrived to my commute at work before and don't remember the drive there and conversely had a different destination in mine but my brain went into autopilot at started taking me to work. It's fascinating how our brains divide up work. 

 

But as people stated, this is getting way off topic now. 

[esm54687]

4 hours ago, NLH Arizona said:

Sorry double post.

Surely after 19 pages and 467 posts.......  many off topic.....  apology not required.   ☺ 

[ShelleyQT]

On 7/22/2019 at 3:45 PM, Jasonmom said:

 

Might be right about the not being afraid of litigation about a toenail (but some people might try to sue for less) but I was told by NCL person when I was filling out papers in Medical center that they do not make any charges for accidents like this that occur on board.

Not to take away from RCCL being kind by not billing you, but if you think about it, it didn't cost the cruise line anything to treat your son.  They were already paying the medical staff to be there anyway, so they might as well treat the guest who has had a mishap.  This prevents possible lawsuits, builds up good will, and costs them nothing more than the sunk cost of having a medical staff in the first place.

[brillohead]

On 7/29/2019 at 4:32 PM, NightOne said:

I was just looking at the RCCL forum section and there is not a peep about it over there. Are they literally deleting every single post about it over there?

Yes, because it never stays civil.
 

On 7/29/2019 at 10:01 PM, graphicguy said:

I believe that CC has some sort of tie to Royal.  They filter out just about all negative when it comes to Royal.  

That is definitely NOT the case.  I'm a regular on the Royal board, and there are always people saying negative things about Royal there, including one of the CC hosts there. 
 

On 7/30/2019 at 11:49 AM, NightOne said:

Well that is pretty sad. I wonder what the reasoning behind that it. I mean it doesn't seem like arguing, fighting, etc. would be the cause because they can moderate that. That sounds like a "corporate" decision. 😉

No, they can't moderate that, because people simply can't behave themselves.  Someone always seems to take it personally whenever someone says anything good OR bad on the forum, and it quickly devolves into an utter crap show of name-calling and finger-pointing.  
 

 

As a regular Royal cruiser whose favorite ship/class is the Freedom which where this horrible accident happened, I'm extremely disappointed in both the media AND Royal Caribbean for not doing more to put the truth out there about this incident. 

Basically ALL of Royal's ships from Voyager class on up (pretty much every ship built since the turn of the century) have this identical glassed in pool deck area (it's possible the older/smaller ships do, as well, but Voyager class is the oldest and smallest Royal ship I've been on so far, although I'll be on Majesty in less than a month and will be happy to report back on that later if anyone cares).  

The entire cruising industry should be speaking out about the truth on this issue, IMO, because non-cruisers see the entire industry as being totally identical -- different companies / lines / ships mean nothing to those who have never cruised, in most cases.  Newbies will refuse to cruise with children because -- based on the way the family and their lawyer have portrayed this over and over in the media -- their child could just all of a sudden fall through a random open window at any time.  

Those of us who have been on a ship know that you simply cannot just fall off a ship without actually trying (or doing something monumentally stupid).  If the grandpa in this case had put the child on his balcony's railing and let go, who would the family blame/sue in that case?  What if he'd been down on the promenade deck or up on the sun deck and sat the girl on the railing and let go of her?  What if he'd been in the elevator lobby inside and sat her on the railing and let go of her?  Or on the railing around the top floor of the main dining room to get a better look at the big chandelier?  

Everyone knows that railings are there to keep people from falling (or out of a restricted area).  Everyone knows that you're not supposed to sit on a railing, or climb over a railing -- or set a child on a railing and let go of them.  And if the pool area were completely glassed in with no windows that opened, there would be no reason to have any railing there at all.  (It would also be well over 100 degrees Fahrenheit on any tropical cruise.... that would put us right back into the discussion about not leaving children in hot enclosed cars!)   

It says a lot that this exact pool deck design has been sailing for two decades -- over a dozen ships, millions and millions of passengers -- and never once has a child randomly fallen off a pool deck until this grandparent put this child on the railing and let go of her.  This is not a design flaw, and putting a sign up that says "don't put children on the railing and let go of them" every two feet on every foot of railing (which honestly is probably well over a MILE of railing on each ship) is not necessary to prevent this from happening again. 

I understand why Royal can't speak out in the media on this issue -- they are currently being sued, so everything they say has to come through the legal department.  But it stinks that the real truth isn't getting told.

And for everyone who is claiming "conspiracy theory" and "Royal owns the media" and various other comments of that nature... if that were really the case, wouldn't Royal be making sure all these "journalists" have an opportunity to board the ship and take a look at the "children's play area" firsthand?  All the media cares about these days is drama -- not the truth.  The truth is that this grandfather made a horrible, terrible mistake, and a little girl died as a result.  

[2bthere]

At what point does our  mod shut down this post? It has nothing to do with NCL.
Who is our mod?

 

[ceilidh1]

48 minutes ago, 2bthere said:

At what point does our  mod shut down this post? It has nothing to do with NCL.
Who is our mod?

 

Why should it be shut down? Moved, maybe...but the number of posts and views shows that this is a topic of interest!

[ceilidh1]

1 hour ago, brillohead said:

Yes, because it never stays civil.
 

That is definitely NOT the case.  I'm a regular on the Royal board, and there are always people saying negative things about Royal there, including one of the CC hosts there. 
 

No, they can't moderate that, because people simply can't behave themselves.  Someone always seems to take it personally whenever someone says anything good OR bad on the forum, and it quickly devolves into an utter crap show of name-calling and finger-pointing.  
 

 

As a regular Royal cruiser whose favorite ship/class is the Freedom which where this horrible accident happened, I'm extremely disappointed in both the media AND Royal Caribbean for not doing more to put the truth out there about this incident. 

Basically ALL of Royal's ships from Voyager class on up (pretty much every ship built since the turn of the century) have this identical glassed in pool deck area (it's possible the older/smaller ships do, as well, but Voyager class is the oldest and smallest Royal ship I've been on so far, although I'll be on Majesty in less than a month and will be happy to report back on that later if anyone cares).  

The entire cruising industry should be speaking out about the truth on this issue, IMO, because non-cruisers see the entire industry as being totally identical -- different companies / lines / ships mean nothing to those who have never cruised, in most cases.  Newbies will refuse to cruise with children because -- based on the way the family and their lawyer have portrayed this over and over in the media -- their child could just all of a sudden fall through a random open window at any time.  

Those of us who have been on a ship know that you simply cannot just fall off a ship without actually trying (or doing something monumentally stupid).  If the grandpa in this case had put the child on his balcony's railing and let go, who would the family blame/sue in that case?  What if he'd been down on the promenade deck or up on the sun deck and sat the girl on the railing and let go of her?  What if he'd been in the elevator lobby inside and sat her on the railing and let go of her?  Or on the railing around the top floor of the main dining room to get a better look at the big chandelier?  

Everyone knows that railings are there to keep people from falling (or out of a restricted area).  Everyone knows that you're not supposed to sit on a railing, or climb over a railing -- or set a child on a railing and let go of them.  And if the pool area were completely glassed in with no windows that opened, there would be no reason to have any railing there at all.  (It would also be well over 100 degrees Fahrenheit on any tropical cruise.... that would put us right back into the discussion about not leaving children in hot enclosed cars!)   

It says a lot that this exact pool deck design has been sailing for two decades -- over a dozen ships, millions and millions of passengers -- and never once has a child randomly fallen off a pool deck until this grandparent put this child on the railing and let go of her.  This is not a design flaw, and putting a sign up that says "don't put children on the railing and let go of them" every two feet on every foot of railing (which honestly is probably well over a MILE of railing on each ship) is not necessary to prevent this from happening again. 

I understand why Royal can't speak out in the media on this issue -- they are currently being sued, so everything they say has to come through the legal department.  But it stinks that the real truth isn't getting told.

And for everyone who is claiming "conspiracy theory" and "Royal owns the media" and various other comments of that nature... if that were really the case, wouldn't Royal be making sure all these "journalists" have an opportunity to board the ship and take a look at the "children's play area" firsthand?  All the media cares about these days is drama -- not the truth.  The truth is that this grandfather made a horrible, terrible mistake, and a little girl died as a result.  

THIS!!!

 

The first time I cruised I had a 14 month old who was just walking. I was TERRIFIED that she was going to "fall" off the ship! As soon as I set foot on the ship, I realised that it would be pretty hard to "fall" off! Granted, if I had allowed her to climb or sat her on railings then she could have "fallen" but I never did! Twelve years on and she has almost 30 cruises to her name and her 8 year old brother has 24! If it was an dangerous as this family, the lawyer, and the media are making out, I would have quit cruising long ago!

[brillohead]

 

5 hours ago, 2bthere said:

At what point does our  mod shut down this post? It has nothing to do with NCL.
Who is our mod?

 

It does have to do with cruising, and with families who cruise, and while I haven't been on an NCL ship yet, I have been on Carnival, Holland American, Princess, Celebrity, and Royal through the years, and this is something that can happen on any line.  

 

I think we're all here because we're all interested in cruising, and I think we all have a vested interest in keeping the frivolous lawsuits to a minimum -- otherwise we're all going to be cruising in ships with metal bars everywhere, like a huge prison cell. 

There's already been talk about "why didn't they have screens over the window so the baby couldn't fall out".... a simple window screen isn't going to be strong enough to hold back a human body, so they'd have to install prison-style bars like a cage around the entire ship, including every single balcony.  Talk about messing up your view of the ocean.
 

[WrittenOnYourHeart]

27 minutes ago, brillohead said:

There's already been talk about "why didn't they have screens over the window so the baby couldn't fall out".... a simple window screen isn't going to be strong enough to hold back a human body, so they'd have to install prison-style bars like a cage around the entire ship, including every single balcony.  Talk about messing up your view of the ocean.
 

 

I hate how people jump to adding barricades rather than common sense “DO NOT PUT BABIES - OR YOURSELF - ON RAILINGS! ESPECIALLY OPEN ONES!”

 

This is why we have Halloween costumes with tags like “Cape does not enable wearer to fly.” At least the stupidity goes back to the early 1900s when “pixie dust” had to be added for flying in Peter Pan as children were jumping off things simply thinking happy thoughts. So it’s not a new stupidity that has overtaken us.

Edited August 2, 2019 by WrittenOnYourHeart

[mjkacmom]

7 hours ago, brillohead said:

Yes, because it never stays civil.
 

That is definitely NOT the case.  I'm a regular on the Royal board, and there are always people saying negative things about Royal there, including one of the CC hosts there. 
 

No, they can't moderate that, because people simply can't behave themselves.  Someone always seems to take it personally whenever someone says anything good OR bad on the forum, and it quickly devolves into an utter crap show of name-calling and finger-pointing.  
 

 

As a regular Royal cruiser whose favorite ship/class is the Freedom which where this horrible accident happened, I'm extremely disappointed in both the media AND Royal Caribbean for not doing more to put the truth out there about this incident. 

Basically ALL of Royal's ships from Voyager class on up (pretty much every ship built since the turn of the century) have this identical glassed in pool deck area (it's possible the older/smaller ships do, as well, but Voyager class is the oldest and smallest Royal ship I've been on so far, although I'll be on Majesty in less than a month and will be happy to report back on that later if anyone cares).  

The entire cruising industry should be speaking out about the truth on this issue, IMO, because non-cruisers see the entire industry as being totally identical -- different companies / lines / ships mean nothing to those who have never cruised, in most cases.  Newbies will refuse to cruise with children because -- based on the way the family and their lawyer have portrayed this over and over in the media -- their child could just all of a sudden fall through a random open window at any time.  

Those of us who have been on a ship know that you simply cannot just fall off a ship without actually trying (or doing something monumentally stupid).  If the grandpa in this case had put the child on his balcony's railing and let go, who would the family blame/sue in that case?  What if he'd been down on the promenade deck or up on the sun deck and sat the girl on the railing and let go of her?  What if he'd been in the elevator lobby inside and sat her on the railing and let go of her?  Or on the railing around the top floor of the main dining room to get a better look at the big chandelier?  

Everyone knows that railings are there to keep people from falling (or out of a restricted area).  Everyone knows that you're not supposed to sit on a railing, or climb over a railing -- or set a child on a railing and let go of them.  And if the pool area were completely glassed in with no windows that opened, there would be no reason to have any railing there at all.  (It would also be well over 100 degrees Fahrenheit on any tropical cruise.... that would put us right back into the discussion about not leaving children in hot enclosed cars!)   

It says a lot that this exact pool deck design has been sailing for two decades -- over a dozen ships, millions and millions of passengers -- and never once has a child randomly fallen off a pool deck until this grandparent put this child on the railing and let go of her.  This is not a design flaw, and putting a sign up that says "don't put children on the railing and let go of them" every two feet on every foot of railing (which honestly is probably well over a MILE of railing on each ship) is not necessary to prevent this from happening again. 

I understand why Royal can't speak out in the media on this issue -- they are currently being sued, so everything they say has to come through the legal department.  But it stinks that the real truth isn't getting told.

And for everyone who is claiming "conspiracy theory" and "Royal owns the media" and various other comments of that nature... if that were really the case, wouldn't Royal be making sure all these "journalists" have an opportunity to board the ship and take a look at the "children's play area" firsthand?  All the media cares about these days is drama -- not the truth.  The truth is that this grandfather made a horrible, terrible mistake, and a little girl died as a result.  

You seem to be taking this very personal, I’m sure Royal and all of the cruise lines have fine legal and public relation teams that know what they are doing. Is the story still in the news? I haven’t searched for it, and I watch the news twice a day (mostly background), and I haven’t heard a peep. No one I know has even brought it up in conversation. I believe there have been a lot of shark attacks on the east coast, dd16 has been down the shore all week, dd18 at cape cod last week, and my family is going down on Saturday for a week. Will these news reports keep us from swimming? Nope.

 

RCL will just let this story get buried under new news, defending themselves will just keep it current, this thread is a good example of that.

[All-ready2cruise]

The sad truth is, we all know who is responsible for this tragedy and it's not the cruise line. 

[Cafedumonde]

Pretty obvious to me that it’s an open window.  Plus, everyone knows that you do not sit your children on railings.

[graphicguy]

@brillohead.....welcome to the NCL boards.  Appreciate your insight.

 

I will agree that that some (not all) of the Royal folks can get contentious.  Recently I was told I had “no class” over there because I refuse to dress in formal wear on Royal’s designated night for pictures to be taken.  I considered the source and refuse to respond to the name calling.

 

Some of the Royal posters have come over here in the past to denigrate NCL cruisers (me included).  To me, it sounded more like some sort of Royal gorilla marketing techniques as it became pretty vehement.

 

Not sure why that is, but it seems anything negative (like the topic of this thread) regarding Royal isn’t allowed over there.

 

I’ve sailed more NCL than I have Royal.  But, I have sailed Royal quite a bit, too.

 

If it’s not marketing attempts on what is probably the biggest cruise forum site on the internet, then some people over there are just not the sort I’d want to hang out with on a cruise.  They just don’t seem to be a very happy lot.

 

Regarding this thread, I believe we’ve looked at it from every angle.  I don’t think there’s much doubt regarding who’s at fault (GrandPa).  The lawyers can try to spin it...trying to make a buck off Royal.  But, unless they have footage of GrandPa slipping on an errant banana peel and losing his grip on the baby, he’s the culprit.  Was it an accident?  I’m 100% certain he didn’t do it on purpose.  But, at the end of the day, the child is dead because of his extremely poor judgement.

 

Don’t be a stranger.  I love hearing from people who sail other lines.

[brillohead]

8 hours ago, graphicguy said:

If it’s not marketing attempts on what is probably the biggest cruise forum site on the internet, then some people over there are just not the sort I’d want to hang out with on a cruise.  They just don’t seem to be a very happy lot.

Like I said, there are some (NOT ALL!!!) Royal cruisers who are just too personally invested in the whole internet forum thing.  It's like their life consists of cruising on Royal and posting on Cruise Critic and literally nothing else.  

I've been cruising since the 80s myself, and I remember all too well the whole "dressing up for dinner every single night" thing.  While I don't begrudge those who enjoy dressing up, it's just not something I have ever personally cared for.  If dress code were THAT important to me, I'd cruise on one of the super-expensive-fancy lines!  I don't wear a swimsuit in the MDR, but I have no problem with a t-shirt and sneakers.  It doesn't bother me when someone at another table is all gussied up, so I don't understand why people at another table should care that I'm not wearing pantyhose and high heels?

Kind of like how people claim that an inside room is like a coffin, or that if they can't cruise in a suite there's no point in going on a cruise.  Cruises are amazing vacations BECAUSE of the multitude of options available to meet everyone's budgets and preferences... I don't get why people get upset about someone else's choices that don't affect them at all.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that there ARE some cool people on the Royal boards.... it's like walking around in a dog park -- you just have to be careful where you step!  💩

[graphicguy]

^^^^^^^^^^^

 

I agree.  @brillohead you’re obviously one of them good ones.  I seem to find the mean spirited ones on occasion!

[brillohead]

13 hours ago, graphicguy said:

^^^^^^^^^^^

 

I agree.  @brillohead you’re obviously one of them good ones.  I seem to find the mean spirited ones on occasion!

All it takes is a few who post all day every day like rabid Tasmanian devils to really turn you off the forum, but there really ARE cool folks there! 

 

I just put the Negative Nellies on my "ignore user" list and it makes my experience much more enjoyable!