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Family's statement on toddler's cruise death

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29 minutes ago, NLH Arizona said:

So you are saying, if someone shoots another person and it would be bad for them and their family if he goes to jail, they should lie and blame an innocent party, because it would basically be the same scenario.  If the Grandpa was negligent and that resulted in the death of the child, he should take his punishment.  Sorry, but what your way of thinking is a great way to teach children not to be responsible for their doings.

sorry (not sorry) but your way of thinking is what keeps people in prison for minor infractions (just an example) for extended amounts of time wasting tax payer dollars and lets other very guilty people walk free bc our prisons are too overcrowded to keep them

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, mjkacmom said:

Actually kids are safest in strollers at WDW over Christmas, it can be dangerous with wall to wall people (I could never do it).

Normally I'd agree but what we saw this past year....folks were on another level to put it nicely. Routinely banging into our stroller, pushing it, stepping on it -- it was a mess. Don't even get me started on the ECV one of our family members had - but essentially it seems like people really hate disabled folks...they really do

 

Anyway, we'll never be back at that time of year again. We said "HAPPIEST PLACE ON EARTH" sarcastically for the entirety of the two weeks because everyone around us looked and acted completely miserable the entire time. Very rare to encounter folks who even held a door open behind them like that is how wild it was - where were even basic manners? guess we'll never know. but we've never experienced the kind of vitriol and flat out rudeness anywhere in the world (and we're from New York City okay supposedly the rudest city in the world or whatever) as we did those two weeks at Disney World it was WILD

Edited by CarnivalCruiser32

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38 minutes ago, CarnivalCruiser32 said:

Normally I'd agree but what we saw this past year....folks were on another level to put it nicely. Routinely banging into our stroller, pushing it, stepping on it -- it was a mess. Don't even get me started on the ECV one of our family members had - but essentially it seems like people really hate disabled folks...they really do

 

Anyway, we'll never be back at that time of year again. We said "HAPPIEST PLACE ON EARTH" sarcastically for the entirety of the two weeks because everyone around us looked and acted completely miserable the entire time. Very rare to encounter folks who even held a door open behind them like that is how wild it was - where were even basic manners? guess we'll never know. but we've never experienced the kind of vitriol and flat out rudeness anywhere in the world (and we're from New York City okay supposedly the rudest city in the world or whatever) as we did those two weeks at Disney World it was WILD

Disney and the Holidays...a recipe for disaster.  

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They found an ambulance chaser who convinced them  that RCCL was at fault. What else can you expect? Nobody takes responsibility anymore. The only person responsible  is grandpa, like it or not. All of Royal's windows are tinted green. If it's totally clear and there is fresh air coming in, wouldn't that tell the average person that the window is open?

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11 hours ago, Sailor Taylor said:

Probably a lapse of judgement in a fraction of a second by an elderly man.  Paid the ultimate price.  

 

And some of the replies in this thread.  SMH.  Reminds me why I don't like this particular board.  

He hasn't paid the ultimate price....the baby paid the ultimate price.

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13 minutes ago, deliver42 said:

They found an ambulance chaser who convinced them  that RCCL was at fault. What else can you expect? Nobody takes responsibility anymore. The only person responsible  is grandpa, like it or not. All of Royal's windows are tinted green. If it's totally clear and there is fresh air coming in, wouldn't that tell the average person that the window is open?

 

 

Sadly to end the drama of a trial RC will probably pay a settlement to the family. Like my husband said RC should sue the family for the bad press they got over this.                       I can tell you right now if that happened to us once my daughter finished screaming bloody murder she would say “ ***** was you thinking putting my baby in an open window” not blaming a cruise line for an open window.  Warning signs- that is really crazy. A more appropriate sign would read “if you are too stupid to cruise stay home”

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2 hours ago, old nutter said:

The use of the word "accident" or "fell off" to describe someone departing over the side of a cruise ship is plain wrong.

 

In the UK, we used to have "Road Traffic Accidents"on our roads - not any more.  After years of investigations by police, it turned out that most of them had a cause and were actually "On Purpose" because they could be attributed to some positve action - wrong, but positive by someone.  As a result we now have "Road Traffic Collisions".

 

Having cruised many times now, I can confirm that in my opinion it is impossible to just accidently fall from a cruise ship.  You can go overboard because of some action by yourself or someone else, like being pushed or dropped or doing something silly, or climbing over to go to do yourself serious damage or death, but never just fall for no reason. The outer decks on cruise ships always have rails or  supports at a height that makes it impossible to just go over "accidently"  I wish the media would stop saying "fell off" as though it just happens without something else causing the departure - it can't.

 

 

Exactly what I said earlier about the concept of 'accidents'.  Hope you don't get flamed for it too! 🙂

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2 hours ago, Newleno said:

I understand your argument, I guess my point is if this truly is an incredibly negligent accident, what would be best for the family?  Would it best serve the family by having Grandpa in Jail or would it make the situation worse?  We dont know what type of charges may be filed.  Bottom line is Grandpa's negligent act resulted in a death.  Could that not be some type of manslaughter?  This grandpa needed a lawyer not to sue nor profit but to help keep him out of jail.


Negligence in and of itself removes the concept of accident.

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2 hours ago, CarnivalCruiser32 said:

well Puerto Rico has pretty strict laws about negligent manslaughter in which the grandfather could be charged for so they absolutely 5000% need a lawyer immediately...

 

not everything is about money...

 

So they need 50 lawyers? 😉

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1 hour ago, mjkacmom said:

I don’t know if I read that anyone blamed the cruise line, and thinks a lawsuit is a good idea.

 

 

The mother has been quoted as complaining that there were no warning signs about not putting a two year old child on a ledge with an open window 150' above a concrete pier.

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2 hours ago, CarnivalCruiser32 said:

No according to Puerto Rican authorities he'd be charged with negligent MANSLAUGHTER. for a tragic accident. Yes people should take responsibility when they make mistakes however this very much seems like an accident not you know...murder... so no I do not think that her grandfather should be in PRISON wasting tax payer dollars over a tragic accident that he's going to torture himself over as long as he lives anyway

 

 

Fallacy of equivocation.  No one has said it was murder.  It may well be manslaughter though.  Grandpas did not put that child ion the ledge accidentally.  He did so intentionally.  If in the eyes of the court (if it ever gets to that) his intentional act was the direct cause of the child's death then he may well be in serious legal trouble.  However there was nothing done accidentally here.  Saying it was not an accident does not mean it was murder though.  But YES if his negligence led to the death of another human being he absolutely should be in jail.  Lots, probably most,  of people in jail torture themselves the whole time they are there.

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2 hours ago, CarnivalCruiser32 said:

sorry (not sorry) but your way of thinking is what keeps people in prison for minor infractions (just an example) for extended amounts of time wasting tax payer dollars and lets other very guilty people walk free bc our prisons are too overcrowded to keep them

 

 

manslaughter is a minor infraction?  wow...

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2 hours ago, CarnivalCruiser32 said:

No according to Puerto Rican authorities he'd be charged with negligent MANSLAUGHTER. for a tragic accident. Yes people should take responsibility when they make mistakes however this very much seems like an accident not you know...murder... so no I do not think that her grandfather should be in PRISON wasting tax payer dollars over a tragic accident that he's going to torture himself over as long as he lives anyway

 

Manslaughter is for when accidents cause death, but isn't murder. Like if you're the cause of a car accident that killed someone yet you weren't trying to kill them, they could charge you with manslaughter. It's above my paygrade to determine if he actually should be charged, but this meets the literal definition of manslaughter.

 

Manslaughter: the crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or otherwise in circumstances not amounting to murder.

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On 7/9/2019 at 5:50 PM, cruisinmeme said:

This is beyond sad but hello shouldn’t grandpa be able to tell the difference in glass and open air. This is how it goes these days, dont watch the kids and blame someone else. Before long people will have to sign wavers that they will not hold the cruise line responsible for what parents should be doing.

again it is awful this poor child died, i get that. 

+  1     Not too hard to tell when a window is open or closed.   Too easy to blame the cruise line.  

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54 minutes ago, Birdie And Sue said:

 

 

The mother has been quoted as complaining that there were no warning signs about not putting a two year old child on a ledge with an open window 150' above a concrete pier.

Really there needs to be a sign saying this?  Reminds me of the McDonald's coffee incident.  Now there are warnings on take out coffee saying it hot.  

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41 minutes ago, nascarcruiser said:

Really there needs to be a sign saying this?  Reminds me of the McDonald's coffee incident.  Now there are warnings on take out coffee saying it hot.  

 

 

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2 hours ago, Birdie And Sue said:


Negligence in and of itself removes the concept of accident.

hmm, I think this is one of the those moments where something is written that is just not accurate. it is the  negligence that causes the accidents.

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4 hours ago, CarnivalCruiser32 said:

we're from New York City okay supposedly the rudest city in the world or whatever) as we did those two weeks at Disney World it was WILD

Just pointing out - at WDW you're not going to be surrounded by all locals.  Those people are from all over the world.  Could have been New Yorkers, who knows?

 

 

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3 hours ago, smplybcause said:

 

Manslaughter is for when accidents cause death, but isn't murder. Like if you're the cause of a car accident that killed someone yet you weren't trying to kill them, they could charge you with manslaughter. It's above my paygrade to determine if he actually should be charged, but this meets the literal definition of manslaughter.

 

Manslaughter: the crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or otherwise in circumstances not amounting to murder.

 

As part of this discussion, I think it would be prudent to clarify some misconceptions with respect to manslaughter, in both a general common law sense and what appears to be in the actual case of Puerto Rican law.

 

First, "manslaughter" is not plainly for situations involving accidents.  Most commonly manslaughter still involves an intentional act, but the mens rea (the mental element necessary for a crime) is less than that of murder (malice aforethought), or some mitigating circumstance may be present.  For instance, if a person's actions are intended to kill another but are done in the heat of the moment or in a fit of rage (classic example is walking in on cheating spouse), then the crime is manslaughter instead of murder because the killing was done intentionally but without prior thought (i.e., malice aforethought).  Of course, arguments exist as to how long something has to be considered to have been pre-planned--is one second enough... ten seconds... one minute... ten minutes...?  The law is almost never black and white.

 

While common law provides for the concept of involuntary manslaughter, it often still requires an intentional act.  Furthermore, although manslaughter by gross negligence is yet another concept under common law, see the argument earlier in the thread about the connotative vs. denotative meaning of "accident" as to whether gross negligence still requires intent.  In addition to these common law standards, there is a statutory concept known as negligent homicide, although the definition in various jurisdictions may essentially be involuntary manslaughter.

 

In any event, in a quick look, Puerto Rico defines manslaughter more in line with common law voluntary manslaughter.  That is, a crime that would be murder but for the fact that it is mitigated due to occurring "in circumstances sudden heat of passion or rage" per 33 L.P.R.A. § 4736.

 

Puerto Rico does have negligent homicide on the books under 33 L.P.R.A. § 4737.  It is defined as a misdemeanor, but is made subject to the same penalties as a fourth degree felony.  With respect to negligence, under 33 L.P.R.A. § 4652, "A crime is deemed to be committed negligently when it is performed without intent, but imprudently, when not observing the standard care that a reasonably prudent person would have observed in the same situation as the author in order to prevent the result."

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6 hours ago, cruisinmeme said:

 

 

Sadly to end the drama of a trial RC will probably pay a settlement to the family. Like my husband said RC should sue the family for the bad press they got over this.                       I can tell you right now if that happened to us once my daughter finished screaming bloody murder she would say “ ***** was you thinking putting my baby in an open window” not blaming a cruise line for an open window.  Warning signs- that is really crazy. A more appropriate sign would read “if you are too stupid to cruise stay home”

SO TRUE!!!!

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As tough as it is the grandfather has to admit he made a tragic mistake.  Can not blame the cruise ship for it.  

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I commented a few days ago that none of us really knows the exact details of the incident.  But one thing that doesn't seem logical to me is why Grandpa would have placed the child on the railing if the purpose for doing so was that the child wanted to bang on the glass like she had done at hockey games.  In looking at pictures of the window area of the site where she fell, I believe the glass window area is floor to ceiling.  Why not let the child stand on the floor (below the railing) look out and bang on the lower part of windowed area?  The lower floor area windows are fixed closed and do not open.  This would have been more like what the child would have experienced at a hockey rink.  So, now I wonder why grandpa would have placed this child on the railing even if he believed the window was closed when she could have just stood and banged on the glass.  

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Not sure why the family is pushing the whole thing about him putting her on the ledge to bang on the glass like she did at hockey games.  That makes no sense.  The picture they showed of her banging on the glass at a game was her standing on the floor.  Being that the windows on the ship are in rows of 3 and start at the floor, If she wanted to bang on the glass, she could have without being lifted up.  I feel so bad for the family and can’t imagine the guilt of the grandfather.  And everyone felt this way and was grieving with them.  But their actions of going public with these ridiculous explanations and blaming the cruise line have turned the tide of public opInion against them.  Instead of memorializing their beautiful daughter’s memory, they come off as trying to benefit from it.

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7 minutes ago, cruise52 said:

I commented a few days ago that none of us really knows the exact details of the incident.  But one thing that doesn't seem logical to me is why Grandpa would have placed the child on the railing if the purpose for doing so was that the child wanted to bang on the glass like she had done at hockey games.  In looking at pictures of the window area of the site where she fell, I believe the glass window area is floor to ceiling.  Why not let the child stand on the floor (below the railing) look out and bang on the lower part of windowed area?  The lower floor area windows are fixed closed and do not open.  This would have been more like what the child would have experienced at a hockey rink.  So, now I wonder why grandpa would have placed this child on the railing even if he believed the window was closed when she could have just stood and banged on the glass.  

Wow, I was typing the exact same thing as you at the same time!

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2 minutes ago, Shidah said:

Wow, I was typing the exact same thing as you at the same time!

I see that.  I was looking at a photo tonight and then it dawned on me - why place her on the rail.  The security / surveillance footage will hopefully show what transpired.  I feel for the grandpa and entire family.  It was a bad split-second decision that ended horribly.  I can't begin to imagine the pain this family is experiencing.  

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