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Copper10-8

Prinsendam's conversion into Amera

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1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Phoenix Reissen obviously doesn't agree. They are putting a substantial amount into her. It seems from other comments on this thread that they already have another ship of her lineage, so perhaps they realize there is a market for a well-designed, well-built smaller vessel. However, they don't have mass-market pressure.

 

All the same, I am happy rather than sad to see the photos -- I'd much rather see the Prinsendam nicely launched into her second (third?) life than headed for the breakers....

Despite what lots of folks think, the Prinsendam would never have gone that route. We saw the MV Astoria which was the MS Stockholm, the ship that sank the Andrea Doria in Geiranger in June. She was built in 1946. And she is still sailing. We were told that the Germans feel that they can easily sail the Prinsendam for another 20 years. 

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44 minutes ago, Storylady said:

Despite what lots of folks think, the Prinsendam would never have gone that route. We saw the MV Astoria which was the MS Stockholm, the ship that sank the Andrea Doria in Geiranger in June. She was built in 1946. And she is still sailing. We were told that the Germans feel that they can easily sail the Prinsendam for another 20 years. 

 

Exactly Ma'am! Amera will remain with Phoenix for quite a few years to come and, yes speculating here, she will be a very successful ship for them, just like their other oldies; Albatross, Amadea and Artania. Just like Prinsendam did with HAL, she and her fleet mates attract a specific type of, mostly German, pax 

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4 hours ago, Hawaiidan said:

 Time is more valuable than  money...  to get the best experience of that time.

 

Well....yes, but there are very different ways in which we all choose to define what is the "best experience of that time".

 

For me -- as one who cruises for the ports and the adventures -- the best experiences are the ones that enable me to spend the most days traveling given my travel budget. I don't have to be wrapped in a cocoon of luxury or eat the equivalent of specialty dining every evening to have a great experience. I'd rather take three trips to Europe on a reasonable budget than one splash-out trip. What I will pay more for:  unusual itineraries, smaller ships, good onboard lectures or enrichment.

 

Being a solo traveler brings a very different outlook on pricing. Most mass market lines charge me 200% for a room. Premium lines aren't any better. But some luxury lines offer 125 or 130%, making it almost the same cost (considering the inclusions I'd actually purchase) as some mass market lines and lower than the Premium ones. I shop around just about all the lines that I would be willing to set sail on. I currently have cruises booked on HAL (14 night Japan), Celebrity (Eastern Med with some unusual ports), Crystal (Black Sea) and Oceania (Dubai to Athens in including Israel and Egypt) over the next two years. On almost all of these I have shopped around for a good deal and booked the lowest category room on the ship. 

 

Anyway, that's my take on value -- the best experience is the one that nets me the most time to enjoy new experiences, having met my threshold requirements.

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15 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Well....yes, but there are very different ways in which we all choose to define what is the "best experience of that time".

 

For me -- as one who cruises for the ports and the adventures -- the best experiences are the ones that enable me to spend the most days traveling given my travel budget. I don't have to be wrapped in a cocoon of luxury or eat the equivalent of specialty dining every evening to have a great experience. I'd rather take three trips to Europe on a reasonable budget than one splash-out trip. What I will pay more for:  unusual itineraries, smaller ships, good onboard lectures or enrichment.

 

Being a solo traveler brings a very different outlook on pricing. Most mass market lines charge me 200% for a room. Premium lines aren't any better. But some luxury lines offer 125 or 130%, making it almost the same cost (considering the inclusions I'd actually purchase) as some mass market lines and lower than the Premium ones. I shop around just about all the lines that I would be willing to set sail on. I currently have cruises booked on HAL (14 night Japan), Celebrity (Eastern Med with some unusual ports), Crystal (Black Sea) and Oceania (Dubai to Athens in including Israel and Egypt) over the next two years. On almost all of these I have shopped around for a good deal and booked the lowest category room on the ship. 

 

Anyway, that's my take on value -- the best experience is the one that nets me the most time to enjoy new experiences, having met my threshold requirements.

 

Value  is like food...subjective.    Each of us decides, as you outlined... budget, destination, comfort, Pricing,  and personal likes and dislikes           Along those lines I find it some what interesting  when people ask another they do not know, what  they like or liked.     The point being that they are not the person  who is asking  making it almost impossible  to get into another's head.      They are not you. ...   Whats your favorite  restaurant..     Oh, Wally's... ( because Wally serves  grilled Shark eyeballs  and sauerkraut ) and you might love that  but  the Other parson has no idea upon how you evaluated...     Or I LOVE  Bobs cruise line (because I can get a cabin next to the engine room where they store the trash.  I love the noise..) 

You take care.

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18 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Phoenix Reissen obviously doesn't agree. They are putting a substantial amount into her. It seems from other comments on this thread that they already have another ship of her lineage, so perhaps they realize there is a market for a well-designed, well-built smaller vessel. However, they don't have mass-market pressure.

 

All the same, I am happy rather than sad to see the photos -- I'd much rather see the Prinsendam nicely launched into her second (third?) life than headed for the breakers....

Prinsendam, was originally  a German build for Royal Viking in the mid 1980's and of Norwegian design.. designed to be a world all weather cruiser.   Italian and french  ship builders are fine for pazazze,  but  the German Norse builds were heavy duty engineering.  You can see that in her striking different design.

THe SUN, SEA and STAR were also made by the the same ship yard.      Phoenix Travel, ( Risen is German for travel)   has already experienced one Older Royal Viking  ship and knows  they are quality.    I suspect  the ship yard will return her to the original  Layout of the Royal Viking SUN... they have the blueprints and they know their workmanship.     Seabourn and HAL  each chopped  her up poorly ,from what she was originally designed......It would wow any HAL passenger to see  how the Old SUN looked...

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14 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

I suspect  the ship yard will return her to the original  Layout of the Royal Viking SUN... they have the blueprints and they know their workmanship. 

 

I have studied the new layout of the ship and I would venture to say that it is not like the Royal Viking Sun.  They are keeping passenger capacity at 835 which is not what the Viking Sun had.  Some aspects are reminiscent but most are not IMO.

 

I agree - the Prinsendam was a well built ship.  I often had technical staff and officers point out the differences in the build in this ship and how solid she was compared to the other ships in the fleet.

 

I will miss her, the crew and her wonderful itineraries.  Where or what we cruise on after next year is a big question mark.

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1 hour ago, Hawaiidan said:

Prinsendam, was originally  a German build for Royal Viking in the mid 1980's and of Norwegian design.. designed to be a world all weather cruiser.   Italian and french  ship builders are fine for pazazze,  but  the German Norse builds were heavy duty engineering.  You can see that in her striking different design.

THe SUN, SEA and STAR were also made by the the same ship yard.      Phoenix Travel, ( Risen is German for travel)   has already experienced one Older Royal Viking  ship and knows  they are quality.    I suspect  the ship yard will return her to the original  Layout of the Royal Viking SUN... they have the blueprints and they know their workmanship.     Seabourn and HAL  each chopped  her up poorly ,from what she was originally designed......It would wow any HAL passenger to see  how the Old SUN looked...

 

You do know that Royal Viking Sun/Seabourn Sun/Prinsendam and soon Amera, was built in Turku, Finland, right? The Star, Sea and Sky were all Finish-built. As Sheriff Buford T. Justice of Montague County, Texas once aptly put it "The gosh darn Germans had nothing to do with it" :classic_cool:

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18 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

You do know that Royal Viking Sun/Seabourn Sun/Prinsendam and soon Amera, was built in Turku, Finland, right? The Star, Sea and Sky were all Finish-built. As Sheriff Buford T. Justice of Montague County, Texas once aptly put it "The gosh darn Germans had nothing to do with it" :classic_cool:

I spent almost 300 days on her and now I speak German fluently, remarkable..

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2 hours ago, kazu said:

 

I have studied the new layout of the ship and I would venture to say that it is not like the Royal Viking Sun.  They are keeping passenger capacity at 835 which is not what the Viking Sun had.  Some aspects are reminiscent but most are not IMO.

 

I agree - the Prinsendam was a well built ship.  I often had technical staff and officers point out the differences in the build in this ship and how solid she was compared to the other ships in the fleet.

 

I will miss her, the crew and her wonderful itineraries.  Where or what we cruise on after next year is a big question mark.

We will to Kazu. We were told on the last cruise that 7 of the Bridge team are staying with the ship. She is one of the prettiest ships we have seen. No wonder she was called the elegant explorer. HAL could have done the same thing the Germans are doing. After all the Germans will spend less making her brand new than building a new ship. Her hull was thicker than other ships according to the Chief Engineer. But their excuse was that they could have Lincoln Center, BB King and Dueling Pianos on her. That was the message from the Hotel Director onboard.

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24 minutes ago, Sir PMP said:

I spent almost 300 days on her and now I speak German fluently, remarkable..

wirchlich.... klar.

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On 7/19/2019 at 10:55 AM, kazu said:

 

What CCL wants /thinks will happen is NOT what seems to be happening.  Seabourn has a lot of competition out there and most CC’ers that I know have not moved to Seabourn.  It’s a small sampling of course but they are moving to Viking, Oceania, Azamara and Silversea, etc.  

 

Just because people liked Prinsendam is no guarantee they will stay loyal to CCL.

 

In fact, a number of people I knew on Prinsendam who were very high star Mariners only sailed Prinsendam.  They didn’t sail any other HAL ship.  Rather, they sailed other cruise lines.  I suspect they will all return to them.  JMO though.

You are right. One President Club couple are seriously thinking of booking the Amera since they speak German. Another couple are now sailing on Azamara instead of HAL. And another long time cruising couple on the Prinsendam are drifting to Viking. Roy also liked the Prinsendam and he is probably going back to Crystal. And those are the ones we know quite well. I have been looking, but so far Viking looks the best. The rooms on Azamara are too small for us. Just wished I had learned German.

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3 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

wirchlich.... klar.

Ja, fliessend...

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For those hopefully for a HAL small rebuild or new build, on the 2019 WC, Orlando said it ain’t happening.

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44 minutes ago, Storylady said:

We will to Kazu. We were told on the last cruise that 7 of the Bridge team are staying with the ship. She is one of the prettiest ships we have seen. No wonder she was called the elegant explorer. HAL could have done the same thing the Germans are doing. After all the Germans will spend less making her brand new than building a new ship. Her hull was thicker than other ships according to the Chief Engineer. But their excuse was that they could have Lincoln Center, BB King and Dueling Pianos on her. That was the message from the Hotel Director onboard.

 

I am actually dreading the Billboard as that is where HAL wants our Meet and Greet.  It’s loud, no one can hear anyone and who cares?

If that is HAL’s definition of a good ship, then they better rethink that excuse as it’s not on any of the S & R ships.  (BBKings was on Rotterdam in the Crow’s Nest on our cruise and it was packed and, now HAL has taken it off???).

 

None of those things are on the S & R ships.  It’s just the direction Ashford is taking and chasing more of us away. And to Viking, Oceania,, Silversea, whatever.  Probably he’ll sell of the flagships next.

 

Big ships are everywhere - the Prinsendam was special and had a price tag to match.  And many of us paid it happily.  We have lots of choices and, sadly HAL is asking us to make them.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sir PMP said:

I spent almost 300 days on her and now I speak German fluently, remarkable..

 

Ach du lieber! :classic_wink:How' bout your Suomi linguistic skills?

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23 minutes ago, Storylady said:

Roy also liked the Prinsendam and he is probably going back to Crystal.

Kind of stunned {but NOT offended) to be mentioned in this thread when I haven't posted to it.

 

I wouldn't say I'm going back to Crystal as I never left and actually have probably sailed Crystal about as much since becoming a semi-regular on HAL as I did previously.  I sail quite a variety of lines but my major ones are Crystal, HAL, Cunard, and Royal Caribbean (largely for cruises out of Baltimore).  I now have 397 days on HAL and "only" 171 of them were on the Prinsendam.  I prefer smaller ships but size is not a deal breaker, my real needs are service, itinerary, a civilized atmosphere, and a decent place to walk.  I expect with the Prinsendam I may sail a little less on HAL and a little more on Crystal but it will be more of an evolutionary than a revolutionary change.

 

It's kind of ironic that my next cruise will be on a small ship.but certainly NOT a replacement for the Elegant Explorer.  With the demise of cruises to Cuba I got a decent deal on the Empress of the Seas.  She's small enough to sail into Hamilton but carries over 1800 guests, so it will probably be a one and done.

 

I don't speak German and will never sail Amera but will certainly get a lump in my throat if I run into her, just as I do now with Asuka II, the former Crystal Harmony.

 

Kind of odd that what started out as a pictoral thread has now morphed into a critique of HAL's stewardship of the Prinsendam.  I never sailed Royal Viking Sun but the Prinsendam was what she was and I was blessed to have 171 days on an absolutely awesome ship.

 

I've enjoyed the photos; I'm hoping eventually there will be some of the conversion of the lido pool to a beer garden.

 

Roy

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1 hour ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

Ach du lieber! :classic_wink:How' bout your Suomi linguistic skills?

Finnish pretty good but Laps is lacking...

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19 hours ago, KirkNC said:

For those hopefully for a HAL small rebuild or new build, on the 2019 WC, Orlando said it ain’t happening.

 The  market demographic of HAL would  just not accept  paying 600-1000 a day for a cabin in a  new Prinsendam size.....   Too Silver Sea, Azamar, Crystal,  Oceaina, Viking,, Pondant (?) Regent have the market already covered.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Sir PMP said:

Finnish pretty good but Laps is lacking...

German  is good....The Germans have been, shall we say prolific in their geographic adventure and political aspirations of  the last 100+ years.  With rather aggressive  requirements  for people they ran into to  rapidly develop a basic German vocabulary , or how shall is say this  " face  a  unpleasant consequence" .

 Good  language to know...

 

Edited by Hawaiidan

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34 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

 The  market demographic of HAL would  just not accept  paying 600-1000 a day for a cabin in a  new Prinsendam size.....   Too Silver Sea, Azamar, Crystal,  Oceaina, Viking,, Pondant (?) Regent have the market already covered.

 

Huh?  Did you ever sail on the Prinsendam?

 

Have you seen some of the pricing on some of the itineraries that they had?

 

Insides and OV’s weren’t bad but once you got past that the pricing was not low (and those that did the insides or OV’s would say the same).

 

I can assure you people did pay it and were very willing to pay it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, kazu said:

 

Huh?  Did you ever sail on the Prinsendam?

 

Have you seen some of the pricing on some of the itineraries that they had?

 

Insides and OV’s weren’t bad but once you got past that the pricing was not low (and those that did the insides or OV’s would say the same).

 

I can assure you people did pay it and were very willing to pay it.

 

 

Sailed the Sun and saw what Seabourn did and what Hal did after adding cabins and chopping space it was painful. what they did... to what was once.

   I know they charged more... with HAL  but  I assumed that  what HAL would have to charge for a new build would be far beyond the target market for  even an up scale mass market ship..   

You would have to  very very set on that ship where cost was no object and exceeded Prem and luxury lines. Just to be on it.    Thats a tough sell  to a logical person.   

Can you cite me some fares as an example 

 

I could be wrong....  However,  I have seen many HAL ships , NOT the Prinsendam   charging far more than lines like Crystal and Oceaina for the same routes?   Cabin rates are all over the map on many lines depending on  who what and where.     

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11 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

Sailed the Sun and saw what Seabourn did and what Hal did after adding cabins and chopping space it was painful. what they did... to what was once.

 

so, you did not sail her when she was the Prinsendam nor pay the pricing

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

Can you cite me some fares as an example 

 

Nope, there is no need for this.  You can take me at my word as someone who has sailed her a LOT or not.  

11 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

I could be wrong....  However,  I have seen many HAL ships , NOT the Prinsendam   charging far more than lines like Crystal and Oceaina for the same routes?    

 

This sounds good in theory but the Prinsendam didn’t sail the same routes as Crystal and Oceania.  Oceania’s itineraries are pretty ‘standard’.  Most of Prinsendam’s were not.  That’s part of what made her special.  Nothing like being greeted in open arms as the first cruise ship to visit a port ever or the first cruise ship in 30 years to visit.

 

She sailed to a lot of ports that the others didn’t go to and yes, that carries a cost and yes, a number of us were willing to pay for it.

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Posted (edited)

It seems to me that if Prinsindam was such a wonderful, well built ship, if it had such a loyal following, if it was the most profitable ship in the fleet, and IF HAL was committed to this market, then why did HAL sell the ship?

 

HAL could be doing what the new owners are doing AND have it turned around within months.  This  appears to me to be a bit of a  contradiction.

Edited by iancal

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Just now, iancal said:

It seems to me that if Prinsindam was such a wonderful, well built ship, if it had such a loyal following, if it was the most profitable ship in the fleet, and IF HAL was committed to this market, they why did HAL sell the ship?

 

HAL could be doing what the new owners are doing AND have it turned around within months.  It appears to me to be a bit of a  contradiction.

 

Two words - Orlando Ashford. 

He’d rather build ships with no worthy promenade deck 😉 smaller cabins, etc. 😉 

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Posted (edited)

I don't think so. Why on earth would a CEO do something to reduce profit...which he is measured and  bonused on , award stock options on, etc?

Especially when it appears that HAL's policy is to squeeze as much revenue as possible out of older ships.

 

Seems to me that Orlando is NOT the reason.  When something does not make sense it is usually attributable to  missing data.

 

Tax reasons?   Change in market direction?  Or did HAL feel that they could get a better return on capital by focusing on larger builds?  Whatever it is to simply blame this on Orlando makes no sense at all.  He may not be a fan but he is business man who did not get to where he is by not being astute.   He could also be actting on the direction of Carnival Corp.  Who really knows?   But to place the blame on Orlando does  not seem like a plausible reason to me.  I doubt whether he woke up one morning and just decided to unload this ship.

Edited by iancal

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