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Fantasy failed inspection


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1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

And we all thank you and your colleagues for all the work you do to make our cruises wonderful. But, it is still the stewards and waiters who get out tips. LOL

And they are welcome to them, for putting the smiling face on the operation.  The only time my guys got some tips were the few occasions where someone dropped jewelry down the sink drain, and the plumbers took the trap apart and got it back.

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6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The time frame for the FDA/CDC switch on the Aloha was in the 2004-2008 time frame.  I was Staff Chief during that time as well.  Both governmental agencies made it very clear that there was little love lost between the two, and each felt the other was not doing a good enough job.

 

 

2004-2008?

 

That's a long time ago.

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7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Maybe to you.  Do you think the Federal government has changed that much in a decade?

 

 

😀

 

Actually, laws and budgets are passed every year. Changes in funding can result in programs being reallocated or out-sourced.

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13 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

 

😀

 

Actually, laws and budgets are passed every year. Changes in funding can result in programs being reallocated or out-sourced.

You do know the term "bureaucracy"?  At least with our government it has always been equated with "inertia".  And a change in a department's line of responsibility or even a change in a program being reallocated would end up in the USC or CFR, and I don't see any amendment regarding changing the VSP from the CDC to the FDA.

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6 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

How far back have you gone?

 

So, why don't you show us the organizational chart that you're working with. Let everyone have a look?
 

I've done one better.  I've used the "CDC-INFO" contact to ask the following question:

 

"When I worked for NCL, I was on a ship that went from foreign flag (USPH jurisdiction) to US flag domestic voyages (Hawaii)(FDA jurisdiction), and then to US flag foreign voyages (USPH jurisdiction).  This was back in 2004-2008.  Someone has told me that all of the VSP inspectors are now under the FDA.  Is this correct?"

 

I've had responses from them (at the CDC, not the FDA) regarding the VSP within the last couple of years, so we'll see in about 2-3 days what response I get.

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i have not read all of the posts about the fantasy. we will be on her sept. 16th for a 10 day panama canal cruise and feel real good about the ship. i bet the fantasy will be in tip top shape for this cruise. i like the fantasy size ships. lets hope i am right.

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2 hours ago, linbobky said:

i have not read all of the posts about the fantasy. we will be on her sept. 16th for a 10 day panama canal cruise and feel real good about the ship. i bet the fantasy will be in tip top shape for this cruise. i like the fantasy size ships. lets hope i am right.

 

With all of the bad attention coming down on CCL lately on this and other things I bet there's been some really tense staff meetings on the corporate and Fantasy ship level.

 

Trust me. Fantasy will be the cleanest ship in the fleet after this PR disaster... at least for the near term. Timing is really good for you on your Sept. cruise so no worries. 

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3 hours ago, Decali said:

 

Trust me. Fantasy will be the cleanest ship in the fleet after this PR disaster... at least for the near term. Timing is really good for you on your Sept. cruise so no worries. 

 

Let us know how it goes!

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I'm sure that you have seen this VSP page on the CDC site. Says that “primarily based on standards found in the FDA Food CodeExternal and the World Health Organization’s Guide to Ship Sanitation.External.”

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/desc/aboutvsp.htm

 

Also, this page lists the outbreaks back to 1994. Surprisingly, Carnival has had no outbreaks in recent years, but HAL has had multiple. 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm

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Okay, as my final debate as to who the cruise ship inspectors work for, this is the response I received from the CDC:

 

Thank you for contacting CDC-INFO.

 

We hope you find the following information about the Vessel Sanitation Program (VSP) helpful.

 

The Vessel Sanitation Program (VSP) at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) assists the cruise ship industry to prevent and control the introduction, transmission, and spread of gastrointestinal (GI) illnesses on cruise ships. VSP operates under the authority of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. Section 264 Quarantine and Inspection Regulations to Control Communicable Diseases).

 

This information can also be found on CDC’s website at https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/desc/aboutvsp.htm.

For more information about the The Vessel Sanitation Program (VSP), please visit the following CDC website:

CDC Resources

Vessel Sanitation Program
National Center for Environmental Health, Division of Emergency and Environmental Health Services
http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/default.htm

 

A little cryptic, but with some digging, here is the CDC organizational chart:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/about/organization/orgChart.htm

 

And you will find that under the Deputy Director for Non-Infectious Diseases, is the "National Center for Environmental Health", as noted above in the CDC response regarding the VSP.

 

Then, looking at:

 

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/02/13/2018-02821/statement-of-organization-functions-and-delegations-of-authority

which is a statement of organization from 2018 from the CDC, it describes the function of the National Center for Environmental Health, and in particular the "Division of Environmental Health Science and Practice (CUGE)" within the Center, and includes

 

" (11) operates a model vessel sanitation program that includes the development of standards, inspection of vessels, sanitation and disease prevention training of the cruise ship industry, conducting gastrointestinal (GI) illness surveillance and disease outbreak investigations on vessels sailing internationally;"

 

This "model vessel sanitation program" is the VSP.  Note that it states that the CUGE operates the program, meaning the inspectors are under the CUGE and therefore the CDC, which is separate from FDA under HHS, as can be seen here in the HHS organizational chart:

 

https://www.hhs.gov/about/agencies/orgchart/text/index.html

 

And, yes, I'm quite well aware of the VSP pages on the CDC website, as these are what are used (both the operational and construction manuals) when working on cruise ships, and as you quoted, the VSP was developed from FDA requirements and WHO requirements, but it does not say that it is under FDA control.  The CDC took US requirements (FDA) and international requirements (WHO) and combined them into a single program (VSP).

Edited by chengkp75
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On 8/20/2019 at 3:31 PM, linbobky said:

i have not read all of the posts about the fantasy. we will be on her sept. 16th for a 10 day panama canal cruise and feel real good about the ship. i bet the fantasy will be in tip top shape for this cruise. i like the fantasy size ships. lets hope i am right.

You will have a blast. I have friends on the ship this week and they report not seeing any issues and enjoying themselves immensely.

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We were on the ship in July during Hurricane Barry--the week prior to the inspection.  I have NO doubt those folks were exhausted from the massive amounts of vomit they were cleaning up, the increased number of requests for towels and toilet paper, the extra day with a ship full of cruisers who just want OFF.  While there were some concerns I noticed (side question below), the crew was on top of their stuff cleaning that ship--until we hit Barry.

The next set of cruisers on the week after us...well, I think we would've taken the refund/rebook option.  Will we sail on the Fantasy again?  Probably not, but that's because the food overall was MEH and I'd like to sail on a larger ship.

 

Side question: Why is it that people REFUSE to use the tongs and use their hands to grab food items?  This was THE major problem I noticed--nasty ass kids and their parents (some older folks too!) using their hands.

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chengkp75, thank you for posting factual and documented information on this and many other topics over the years. You certainly have more patience than I do. I really enjoy reading and learning about the ships and their operation from your posts.

 

Rob

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On 8/20/2019 at 9:51 PM, HappyInVan said:

 

Let us know how it goes!

 

I've never been on Fantasy and I don't want to get into your pillow fight about statistics. I'm sayin' that the hammer has come down on that ship now and the person who is sailing in Sept. has no worries about the cleanliest of that ship.

 

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2 hours ago, Decali said:

 

I've never been on Fantasy and I don't want to get into your pillow fight about statistics. I'm sayin' that the hammer has come down on that ship now and the person who is sailing in Sept. has no worries about the cleanliest of that ship.

 

Enjoy your cruise.

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As we close this thread, I would like to thank the OP for the heads up. To thank all the members who have posted complaints and warnings about the shortcomings of the company and its employees.

 

To thank the members, in general, who are not experts. For contributing their experiences which enrich our knowledge base. Thank You .

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3 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

As we close this thread, I would like to thank the OP for the heads up. To thank all the members who have posted complaints and warnings about the shortcomings of the company and its employees.

 

To thank the members, in general, who are not experts. For contributing their experiences which enrich our knowledge base. Thank You .

We want to thank you and Chengkp75 for giving us some great information. It may get a little over our head sometimes but I still appreciate the knowledge.

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4 hours ago, kenb said:

We want to thank you and Chengkp75 for giving us some great information. It may get a little over our head sometimes but I still appreciate the knowledge.

True! As much as I appreciate the expert knowledge of chengkp75 and HappyInVan, their back and forth reminded me of conversations between my hubby & me about 401Ks, retirement plans & Medicare supplement plans...

Hubby: 'Hrrdeferr de griggen fir; jrfoin oifiu oijeofh npsok bas'. Me: 'hmmmm, okay (as I go back to reading a book)'

 

Not that I am not interested in the outcome, just the getting there details are above my head, and therefore, out of scope for me!

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On 8/9/2019 at 10:43 PM, Lottacruises said:

Maybe the silverware wiper was concerned for the environment and did not want to unnecessarily run those unused utensils through the dishwasher. 

 

The answer:  I already have and you probably have too....

As though not washing these items is going to make any difference to a cruise ships impact on the environment !

You can get away with a lot of things in your own home , but in a closed environment with hundreds of people you need to be more than clean. Noro virus just loves to cruise

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On 8/24/2019 at 12:34 PM, HappyInVan said:

As we close this thread, I would like to thank the OP for the heads up. To thank all the members who have posted complaints and warnings about the shortcomings of the company and its employees.

 

To thank the members, in general, who are not experts. For contributing their experiences which enrich our knowledge base. Thank You .

 

 

 C'mon. Lighten up Richard.

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I'm trying to construct a narrative in my own head about the staffer who was wiping the possibly/probably used silverware. I'm pretty sure it would be less work for this person to toss everything in the bin of dirty silverware than to do that, so I wonder if they are supposed to clean the crud (cole slaw, for instance) off the dirty silverware so it doesn't end up glued to some clean plate/fork/coffee cup when it goes through the dish machine. If so, this person may have been putting it in the wrong bin after wiping.

 

As others have said, that would be a failure of training and supervision of staff, and possibly exacerbated by fatigue or just lack of attention. 

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