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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, USC Adventurer said:

to the last four posters and you know who you are:

i was wondering how long it would take for the mean and name calling responses to show up here and you four didn't disappoint.  if someone can conform to your ideas, then instead of respecting their decisions, you all just need to call them names.  why don't you all just give it a rest and let it go. 

your posts reflect the small minded mass market cruisers that you don't think you are but you are one of them.  i hope i don't meet any of you on my crystal cruise.

 

So, in other words, yours was a troll post, which is also against the guidelines of CC. Thanks for your honesty.

Edited by fyree39

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It's a vacation, people.  VACATION.  It's supposed to be fun.  Nothing seems to bring out the worst in Crystal passengers than dress codes and the discussion or enforcement of them -- is it any wonder Crystal has been trying to reduce the restrictions so much over the years?

 

Vince

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i remember even back in the old days when Crystal (and other lines) were a lot more formal people would show up for dinner in jeans and the staff would never do anything about it. 

As VInce said it is a vacation and enjoy it - You do what you do to feel comfortable both physically and emotionally.  Hey it isn't like someone texting while driving. 

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38 minutes ago, BWIVince said:

It's a vacation, people.  VACATION.  It's supposed to be fun.  Nothing seems to bring out the worst in Crystal passengers than dress codes and the discussion or enforcement of them -- is it any wonder Crystal has been trying to reduce the restrictions so much over the years?

 

Vince

 

And I would submit, Vince, that reducing those restrictions has lead us to where we are today. I can remember reading comments, back when it was BT without the O, along the line of "next thing we will be seeing jeans in the MDR at dinner!"😏 Like suzeluvscruze, when the line (or the host in my wedding analogy) requests a certain dress standard I don't think it is unreasonable to expect guests to comply. In fact, the only real "complaint" I have about Crystal is they don't "enforce" the dress rules more closely. Not because I particularly care what others wear, but because all you have to do is look at some of the "better" mass market lines, like Holland and Celebrity, where almost anything now goes, to see what happens when you stop. 

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57 minutes ago, BWIVince said:

It's a vacation, people.  VACATION.  It's supposed to be fun.  Nothing seems to bring out the worst in Crystal passengers than dress codes and the discussion or enforcement of them -- is it any wonder Crystal has been trying to reduce the restrictions so much over the years?

 

Vince

Do you cruise often on Carnival, NCL, Royal or Princess? Do you want the same attitudes about dress, seat saving and line cutting to be seen all over Crystal? I'd really love to enjoy a cruise on a line without the thoughtlessness I see on the mass market lines. I'm hoping to find this on Crystal, but your post is leading me to believe Crystal is really no different than any other line when it comes to passenger mix.

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2 minutes ago, Roland4 said:

 

And I would submit, Vince, that reducing those restrictions has lead us to where we are today. I can remember reading comments, back when it was BT without the O, along the line of "next thing we will be seeing jeans in the MDR at dinner!"😏 Like suzeluvscruze, when the line (or the host in my wedding analogy) requests a certain dress standard I don't think it is unreasonable to expect guests to comply. In fact, the only real "complaint" I have about Crystal is they don't "enforce" the dress rules more closely. Not because I particularly care what others wear, but because all you have to do is look at some of the "better" mass market lines, like Holland and Celebrity, where almost anything now goes, to see what happens when you stop. 

 

I agree that loosening the code creates more of a dust-up initially, but it also starts retraining passengers that this is a guideline and not a restriction anymore.  To your point that may be a slippery slope, but to culture's point -- the entire world isn't where it was "back in the day". 

 

Even the dress code at my company is now deliberately vague and designed to give people guidance and not restrictions.  This is the world we are increasingly living in, and fighting it would just make me grumpy and bitter.  I certainly don't need to do that on vacation when I'm supposed to be enjoying myself.

 

Vince

 

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20 minutes ago, fyree39 said:

Do you cruise often on Carnival, NCL, Royal or Princess? Do you want the same attitudes about dress, seat saving and line cutting to be seen all over Crystal? I'd really love to enjoy a cruise on a line without the thoughtlessness I see on the mass market lines. I'm hoping to find this on Crystal, but your post is leading me to believe Crystal is really no different than any other line when it comes to passenger mix.

 

In all seriousness, what does that have to do with someone wearing a sweater instead of a coat over their button down shirt?

 

I agree that I love the atmosphere on Crystal and I don't want to see people wearing bathrobes in the dining room.  Crystal HAS firm lines against the really crazy violations that cause disruptions.  But Crystal's passengers are a pretty well traveled and pretty worldly group -- they manage to dress themselves the rest of the year, and clearly if they wear most of what they do in similar situations at home, they would be fine onboard.  What someone is wearing reflects on that person, not on others.  If someone wants to embarrass themselves with some non-safety or decency related infraction, why should others let it darken their own vacation making some big deal out of it?  My dinner is not going to be ruined because I'm wearing a suit and someone else in the dining room is wearing a nice sweater -- because I'm on vacation and I'm trying to have a good time.

 

This WILL get more casual.  EVERYTHING is more casual than it was, and that trend will continue.  As Crystal gets younger passengers, and as younger passengers get older and reach the Crystal level, things will continue to change.  I now have coworkers that don't even own a suit, where we were once required to dress for client meeting.  I have CLIENTS that don't even own a suit now.  Maybe that evolution is cause for panic for some people, but there is nothing that offended passengers will be able to do to change it, unless they want to start some VERY small cruise line for people that love formalwear.

 

Vince

 

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Posted (edited)

Most repeat cruisers of Silversea enjoy formal wear.  Maybe SS is aware of its niche market.

Edited by Camillus112

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1 hour ago, Camillus112 said:

Most repeat cruisers of Silversea enjoy formal wear.  Maybe SS is aware of its niche market.

 

Hopefully...  There was a time when Crystal's passengers did too.  But nowadays Crystal is trying to justify new ships through sustained load factors, so they can't turn off the majority to focus on a niche.

 

Vince

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I think we have two items here.

 

First hopefully has been answered and that was about the evening attire for BTO nights and how it might vary by restaurant and whether or not it is enforced. Hopefully the questions have been answered.

 

As to the attire changing over time, it has.  😁  When we began sailing Crystal there were three different evening attires; Formal, Informal (or Semi-Formal) and Casual.  If you take Formal and Informal that has become BTO.  Casual is pretty much the same but is called Crystal Casual. In addition, the quantity of casual nights has increased since there are no Informal nights and because the quantity of formal nights reduced.  Years ago the majority of cruises were 12 or more days with maybe one seven day cruise each year.  On 12 day cruises you had three formal nights.  Now it is likely to be 2.  On seven day cruises you used to have one to two formal nights.  Now there are none.

 

This is a reflection of how things have changed on Land with many businesses going casual; first once a week or once a month and eventually everyday for the vast majority of businesses at least in the USA.

 

All cruise lines have gone a bit more casual.  For some it is all casual.  Even Cunard has reduced the number of formal nights it has.  We did a crossing in 2014 and I believe there were three and just the year before there would have been more.  Silversea has cut back a little bit.  They allow semi formal on formal nights in some of the restaurants.  

 

Several years ago Crystal chose to follow rather than lead.  They knew that many Crystal Society members wanted to keep with the formal attire so they went slow.  Eventually they had to change as the long timers were not sailing and the new ones wanted more casual attire.  Unless something on land changes I expect this trend to continue.  However, should it change on land then things could change at sea.

 

Same went with the changes to the menu which is why they have both a traditional menu and the modern menu at Waterside.  It was to allow for a transition that was designed to please both the society members plus newer and younger cruisers.

 

I am reminded that on land when we would go to a Broadway show that most people would dress up.  That is not the case anymore.  And back in the 1960's at many stadiums people would dress to go to a baseball game.  Times change.  People change.  I remember the time when in the USA the women would wear hats to receptions in the evening or many gents would wear hats to functions.  I had to wear one to certain functions.  Times have changed.

Anyway, discussions of attire have always been rather interesting on CC and across all cruise line boards.  Same with smoking although less so with less smoking allowed.  And there are a few other topics like this as well.  

 

Keith

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keith,

thank you very much for your comments.  i believe the question about attire on bto and non bto nights has been answered and beaten to death!

i'd like your opinion about an eight night cruise.  will there be a bto night?

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11 minutes ago, USC Adventurer said:

i'd like your opinion about an eight night cruise.  will there be a bto night?

 

Yes - it’s longer than 7 nights so 1 BTO

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keith,

is there any way to know which night of the cruise will be the bto night?  i'm interested to know in order to make specialty dining room reservations?

 

 

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9 hours ago, BWIVince said:

 

I agree that loosening the code creates more of a dust-up initially, but it also starts retraining passengers that this is a guideline and not a restriction anymore.  To your point that may be a slippery slope, but to culture's point -- the entire world isn't where it was "back in the day". 

 

Even the dress code at my company is now deliberately vague and designed to give people guidance and not restrictions.  This is the world we are increasingly living in, and fighting it would just make me grumpy and bitter.  I certainly don't need to do that on vacation when I'm supposed to be enjoying myself.

 

Vince

 

 

Vince, you and I rarely disagree, but this is one of those exceptions...

 

Leaving aside what may be happening in the real world outside of cruising, and the entitled attitude of the "gentleman" who started this, I still think Crystal, or any line, has the right to establish a recommended dress code for its guests, and expect them to comply. And given that the majority of Crystal guests do comply, I think those guests have a reasonable expectation that Crystal WILL enforce its recommended dress code on those who choose not to comply. It's not like Crystal hides the BTO dress recommendation and springs it on people with the welcome aboard issue of Reflections! 

 

At the end of the day, this is to me more about what comes next. I think you and I agree that BTO is ultimately destined to go the way of the Dodo Bird. The concern I have is if Crystal does not take a stand on dress now, before it ultimately goes Crystal Casual all the time (which I personally don't have a problem with), then it will become almost impossible to enforce later. I don't know if you have sailed a mass market line lately, but on Celebrity last November we saw dress in the evenings that would get people ejected from any self-respecting flop house!! A bit of an exaggeration? Yes. But not much of one, and I really would hate to see Crystal start down that path!

 

Larry

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Have to chime in here. Sailed Silverseas east coast cruise last September and saw worn out jeans repeatedly in dining room. Definitely not designer! Also recent Regent cruise saw a man turned away for wearing shorts( he returned in long khakis). On our many Crystal cruises we have never observed jeans of any type in the dining room. If you want to be a rebel and “stand out” , then wear your jeans. Everybody knows how to dress nicely for a nice restaurant or show. Putting on a pair of regular pants shouldn’t be so hard.No one cares, but you will get stares.

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2 minutes ago, Roland4 said:

 

Vince, you and I rarely disagree, but this is one of those exceptions...

 

Leaving aside what may be happening in the real world outside of cruising, and the entitled attitude of the "gentleman" who started this, I still think Crystal, or any line, has the right to establish a recommended dress code for its guests, and expect them to comply. And given that the majority of Crystal guests do comply, I think those guests have a reasonable expectation that Crystal WILL enforce its recommended dress code on those who choose not to comply. It's not like Crystal hides the BTO dress recommendation and springs it on people with the welcome aboard issue of Reflections! 

 

At the end of the day, this is to me more about what comes next. I think you and I agree that BTO is ultimately destined to go the way of the Dodo Bird. The concern I have is if Crystal does not take a stand on dress now, before it ultimately goes Crystal Casual all the time (which I personally don't have a problem with), then it will become almost impossible to enforce later. I don't know if you have sailed a mass market line lately, but on Celebrity last November we saw dress in the evenings that would get people ejected from any self-respecting flop house!! A bit of an exaggeration? Yes. But not much of one, and I really would hate to see Crystal start down that path!

 

Larry

 

Larry, let me clarify my earlier posted because I think it was received incorrectly.

 

Crystal has two parts to its dress code -- they have the "house rules" and they have the "suggested dress."  The house rules cover the decency suggestions, and those -- if anything -- have only gotten stronger over the years as the suggested dress has gotten more vague.  I think that is ENTIRELY to your point.  As you give people more freedom on what to wear, you have to establish more fences on what's unacceptable under any circumstances.  Also as society is changing, you have to tell people more specifically on what is never going to fly.  There are notices in Reflections telling people what not to wear that I never would have imagined in a million years.

 

The "no daytime attire after 6:00pm" is an example of a house rule, along with no jeans on BTO nights.  Crystal needs to, and I assume always will continue to, enforce these rules in order to maintain their desired atmosphere.  Agree completely.

 

What I disagree on is the "suggested" dress portion, where there are no hard and fast rules.  Everything is "examples of" this and "we request" that.  This is the part that is globally changing everywhere, and I have a really hard time setting that aside.  This is my every day world working for a major company in 2019, and Crystal seems to be responding to the same business climate that my own company is. 

 

When my company adopted a suggested dress portion of the dress code like Crystal did (while also keeping the house rules part of what's unacceptable), everyone thought it was going to be the end of the world.  Has it gotten more casual?  Sure.  But the rules keep the offensive pieces out of play, and everyone's own sense of what's appropriate in an office has proven a lot more resilient than I think everyone expected.  The power of our staff to want to look good has triumphed over the will to dress fast, easy or cheap.

 

I don't think Crystal moving from a list of things you have to wear to a suggestion of things you can wear has really been THAT dramatic.  Luxury cruise passengers MOSTLY want a somewhat fashionable experience and mostly dress well.  There are examples of people that don't, and while they may have gone up a little, I feel like there were always rich people that dressed badly -- their garments of choice may just have been a little more fitting a guideline than actually tasteful back then.

 

Anyway, just to clarify, I agree about the "house rules" completely, and I don't see Crystal ever stopping that part.  However, for better or worse, Crystal puts the coat on BTO nights in the suggestions with "we request" and NOT the house rules -- and that was the foundation of my earlier message.

 

Vince

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, USC Adventurer said:

keith,

is there any way to know which night of the cruise will be the bto night?  i'm interested to know in order to make specialty dining room reservations?

 

 

 

Just as your TA for your booking confirmation, it's listed there along with the ports, times, and dress codes for the evening. As soon as you are paid in full, you can make specialty restaurant reservations on the PCPC web site.

Edited by suzeluvscruz
added info

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5 hours ago, USC Adventurer said:

keith,

is there any way to know which night of the cruise will be the bto night?  i'm interested to know in order to make specialty dining room reservations?

 

 

Yes, if you go to PCPC which is where you would make the specialty restaurant reservations the first thing you see is a calendar. The calendar reflects for each day the evening attire assuming it has been updated.  It should be but if not it will be.  Typically (although there are exceptions) the BTO night is the second evening.  Once in awhile it is not.  Again the calendar will have this.  The calendar is almost always right on this.

 

Keith

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5 hours ago, sugar333 said:

Have to chime in here. Sailed Silverseas east coast cruise last September and saw worn out jeans repeatedly in dining room. Definitely not designer! Also recent Regent cruise saw a man turned away for wearing shorts( he returned in long khakis). On our many Crystal cruises we have never observed jeans of any type in the dining room. If you want to be a rebel and “stand out” , then wear your jeans. Everybody knows how to dress nicely for a nice restaurant or show. Putting on a pair of regular pants shouldn’t be so hard.No one cares, but you will get stares.

I just want to note that jeans (no holes) are allowed in Waterside or the other restaurants in the evening on Crystal Casual nights. It has been like that for many years.  Ironically I actually see less Jeans than I did several years ago.  Not sure why but maybe with more Crystal Casual nights people are just bringing more causal clothing with them with other type of clothing.  My experience is you will see them a little more the first and last evenings of a cruise.  As I mentioned earlier they are not noted in the write-ups but most defiantly permitted.

 

Keith

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On the topic of what is and not permitted I wanted to address one more item.

 

On selected BTO nights on Serenity there is one additional dining venue I didn't address earlier and that is the Supper Club.  It is offered on the first and last BTO nights if there is at least one BTO night on the cruise.  Anything greater than such as a three or four nights on a long voyage again has the Supper Club on the first and last nights.  BTO attire is required and if one is not dressed appropriately they will be turned away.  

 

Keith

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5 hours ago, Keith1010 said:

I just want to note that jeans (no holes) are allowed in Waterside or the other restaurants in the evening on Crystal Casual nights. It has been like that for many years.  Ironically I actually see less Jeans than I did several years ago.  Not sure why but maybe with more Crystal Casual nights people are just bringing more causal clothing with them with other type of clothing.  My experience is you will see them a little more the first and last evenings of a cruise.  As I mentioned earlier they are not noted in the write-ups but most defiantly permitted.

 

Keith

We saw jeans with holes on several nights on our recent (ten days ago) Serenity cruise.  

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14 minutes ago, almostretired said:

We saw jeans with holes on several nights on our recent (ten days ago) Serenity cruise.  

 

I've never understood $500 purposely ripped jeans. Now, if you look like Melania (no politics please, just commenting on her physical appearance), you can "pull it off". I have an 8 x 10 glossy with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back (you have to be a certain age to "get" that) of me in the same outfit!!!😱🤡😎

 

Patty

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, almostretired said:

We saw jeans with holes on several nights on our recent (ten days ago) Serenity cruise.  

My only point about blue jeans was to mention what we have been told is part of the recommended guidelines (since blue jeans are not listed)  and what is not (holes) but not to imply that there are not some people who choose to ignore the recommendations.   😣 

 

Patty, maybe not the best analogy but I've never understood how swimwear companies can justify charging more money the skimpier the bathing suit is.  Interesting how they provide less material and charge more.  Obviously it works because people buy them.  Oh well this is what makes the world go round.  😱

 

Come to think of it I am not sure if I've seen a thread on what types of swim suits are permitted on-board.  Ummm, maybe for another time/discussion.  LOL.

 

Keith

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