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Do you Like the direction..

Right or wrong direction for Holland America Line?  

228 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you like the direction Orlando Ashford seems to be leading Holland America Line?



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2 hours ago, true45 said:

I’m with you.  Taking our first HAL sailing after 25+ on other lines but mostly Celebrity.  The cruisers are saying the same things on the board there.

 

Is it that bad over there?

 

Why don't you try a similar poll at Celebrity? Would the cruisers be 66% negative?

 

Some of us are worried about the long term viability of HAL and Carnival. Read post 401, 405. 415 and 420. This would impact the enjoyment of passengers willing to pay $$$, and the value of being a senior member of the Mariner rewards program.

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44 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

Why don't you try a similar poll at Celebrity? Would the cruisers be 66% negative?

 

That would be an interesting thread... I won't post it but I hope someone does.. would love to compare results!

 

Joseph

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We have never run a cruise line so I am not an expert..........but after 8 cruises I would say things are going down hill a bit with regards to services and entertainment.  You can have all the new bells and whistles you want to keep modern or contemporary to meet society demands but if you dont have that solid service and professional entertainment then you have lost the whole reason we like holland.......

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19 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Sorry. I see no evidence that anyone here has mastered undergrad stats or portfolio theory?

Actually, I was writing about graduate level studies taken by me.  Even the question "Do you like the direction . . ." is flawed.  "like" and "direction" can be interpreted very differently.  Hence, my continued skepticism.

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1 minute ago, Dunelm said:

Actually, I was writing about graduate level studies taken by me.  Even the question "Do you like the direction . . ." is flawed.  "like" and "direction" can be interpreted very differently.  Hence, my continued skepticism.

then if I may ask, how would you phrase the question?

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8 minutes ago, rucrazy said:

then if I may ask, how would you phrase the question?

 

8 minutes ago, rucrazy said:

then if I may ask, how would you phrase the question?

It would have to be composed of several neutral questions, not only one, and would certainly not lay any implied change on one person.  Major changes are never the result of one person in a company.  As you can certainly tell, I am not a fan of polls and would not want any part in them.  Also, people polled should always be a random sample.  An impossibility on this site.

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1 minute ago, Dunelm said:

 

It would have to be composed of several neutral questions, not only one, and would certainly not lay any implied change on one person.  Major changes are never the result of one person in a company.  As you can certainly tell, I am not a fan of polls and would not want any part in them.  Also, people polled should always be a random sample.  An impossibility on this site.

I agree with your analysis, the question was not meant to be scientific, it was more for me.

Joseph

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3 hours ago, Dunelm said:

 

Also, people polled should always be a random sample.  An impossibility on this site.

 

Of course, a sample of 200 is not representative of a universe of 00s of thousands.

 

However, I would suggest that the 200 are more important than the average/typical HAL customer.

 

That is, the 200 voters are not random. They are here on CC. Have more than the average number of cruises. Above all, they are vocal influencers.

 

https://influencermarketinghub.com/what-is-an-influencer/

 

They have strong opinions and express them. With their extensive experience, they are able to influence others. In this instance, being critical of the company, 'Do you like the direction Orlando Ashford seems to be leading Holland America Line?'.

 

One of our members was saying that he wrote a complaint directly to the BoD, and the response was action. That is indirect power.

 

Hope this helps.

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Any undergraduate knows know to calculate the margin of error from a table. But, a real world poll requires knowledge of the reliability of the method; phone, internet, mail.

 

There are random household surveys of consumer optimism. But, there are also smaller polls of economists, CEO and CFO about their expectations for the economy.

 

These knowledgeable people have intimate knowledge of the spending and production plans for their industries.

 

Do the pollsters include every CEO, CFO and economists in the country? Of course not. They have a selected corporate/academic list that they use every survey. Ensuring consistency.

 

This thread has been viewed 16k times. Only 220 respondents have participated. I would suggest that these people are more certain of their preferences and will spend more on cruises than the 'average' consumer.

 

Equally important are the comments in this thread. No need for a fifty-question poll. We should be able to identify the qualitative issues from just reading. Any unbiased person should be able to draw their own conclusions.


 

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20 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Very basic statistical trap. 

 

Correlation does not imply causation.

 

 

Causality?

 

The simple answer is 'Always blame management. Never blame the customers.'
 

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2 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Causality?

 

The simple answer is 'Always blame management. Never blame the customers.'
 

 

Yes. Fingers were not cooperating with brain. 

 

Also just want to toss out that the "simple answer" does not necessarily mean the "best answer".

 

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On 10/12/2019 at 8:29 PM, cruisemom42 said:

my father wisely said to me "You are fortunate enough to have a good education, good job and good prospects. Unlike many people in the world, you can do almost anything you want -- but you cannot necessarily do everything you want.

 

These words are what my Mother and my Maternal Grandfather never stated so eloquently as your Father did.  But, my Grandfather's and my Mother's message to me was the same.  

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11 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Yes. Fingers were not cooperating with brain. 

 

Also just want to toss out that the "simple answer" does not necessarily mean the "best answer".

 

 

Unless... the simplest explanation is the right explanation?

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I have no doubt that HAL management pays far more attention to the feedback from their top bookers and agencies, from focus groups, and from industry experts than they do from many of the people on this forums who are on the wrong end of the age scale when it comes to determining short and long term direction.  Lot of grumps on this forum who complain but are unwilling to either ‘pony up’ for a better experience, set in their ways, or simply like to hear themselves complain.

 

We spend a fair amount on travel.  We are in our late sixties.  A smaller, high end cruise that caters to our specific demographic may care about our opinion.  But I do not believe that a mass market cruise line would turn to us in developing a short or a long term business plan.  We probably won’t be around for the long term part of the plan!  

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On 10/14/2019 at 3:27 PM, Dunelm said:

 

 As you can certainly tell, I am not a fan of polls and would not want any part in them.  Also, people polled should always be a random sample.  An impossibility on this site.

 

Of course, this is not a scientific poll. It does not include all the HAL cruisers who have simply walked away. Not included in this poll. However, this can be described as a straw poll...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_poll

 

That fact that it keeps running is because ….. it is relevant. Example, creel5857 (post 453) has reached the tipping point. In his own words...

 

......but after 8 cruises I would say things are going down hill a bit with regards to services and entertainment. You can have all the new bells and whistles you want to keep modern or contemporary to meet society demands but if you dont have that solid service and professional entertainment then you have lost the whole reason we like holland.......”

 

 

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On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 3:30 PM, rucrazy said:

I agree with your analysis, the question was not meant to be scientific, it was more for me.

Joseph

I appreciated your question.  One more point, and then I am moving on from this topic.  Questions should never have only three responses, particularly "yes" or "no" answers.

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There's an attempt to invalidate the poll in this thread. It is a simple poll, asking “Do you like the direction ...”

 

What should we expect to learn from the poll?

 

First, this online poll is different from the questionnaires send out by customer service. You would expect the company to receive mainly negative feedback.

 

Customers with negative experiences are motivated to respond. Few with positive experiences would bother to say Thank You.

 

By comparison, this online poll is political. For comparison, look at the movie ratings at IMDB. Advocates and critics are motivated to defend their position. Most movies have a rating score of 5/10 to 8/10.

 

https://www.imdb.com/

 

 

Any movie with a rating of 6, demonstrates a lack of enthusiasm among the movie buffs. A score of 5 or less signifies a disaster for a mainstream film.

 

That was my expectation for the poll on this thread. That HAL would get a >60% support. Instead, there is a 66% negative score, and only 20% positive.

 

HAL is able to (mostly) fill its ships. But, at ever lower prices, leading to further cuts in costs and quality. That's a downward spiral.

 

The evidence lies in Carnival's lower profit margins compared to the competitors. And, investors are rating Carnival lower than RCCL (for a loss of $10b in market cap).

 

HAL is filling its ships mainly with lukewarm newcomers from the budget brands. The kind of people who tell us that they have no loyalty. Shop for the best deal. Hurrah for deep discounts.

 

HAL would be on a different trajectory if it were poaching from the luxury brands. It's not. Instead, HAL is losing its $$$ customers to upmarket competitors. That says it all.

 

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52 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

HAL is filling its ships mainly with lukewarm newcomers from the budget brands. The kind of people who tell us that they have no loyalty. Shop for the best deal. Hurrah for deep discounts.

 

HAL would be on a different trajectory if it were poaching from the luxury brands. It's not. Instead, HAL is losing its $$$ customers to upmarket competitors. That says it all.

 

Do you have any data on this?  I'm not saying it isn't happening, but I'd be curious to seem some actual numbers.  

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What is wrong with having no brand loyalty when it comes to cruise lines?  We have preferences but not loyalty.  Besides, we do not want to be stuck in the same old rut with only one cruise line when the industry and the ships are changing so much.

 

We shop  based on ship, itinerary, and cost.  We are happy to sail on HAL’s newer ships but have zero interest in their older ships. The same goes for a few other lines. 

 

The HAL of today is not the HAL of ten years ago.   Same for other lines.  Are you suggesting that customers should be loyal notwithstanding changes that are made to the products and services?   HAL management is responsible for where the company is today and how it is perceived.  Not the customers.

Edited by iancal

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I very rarely comment on this type of thing, but here goes. We have only done around 20 cruises, the majority with HAL. Missed about 5 years do to family health issues. Returned last winter for an 11 day on Koningsdam and thought it was great. Certainly a bit different from our 1st cruise on Ryndam which was a 10 day Caribbean and magical. 

Did we miss the old-style Ocean Bar?  Yes, but thought BB King was great. Found the food (late seating, fixed) just fine, and the servers outstanding. 

 

Spent a lot of time at the stern pool and loved it. Plenty of comfortable seating with large shaded areas. Bar service and drinks excellent. 

 

When I look at alternatives am not thrilled. Those tiny balconies on the newer Princess ships?  No thanks. The “virtual “ balcony cabins on the newer Celebrity ships. As a confirmed balcony rat, no way. 

 To be completely honest, I cruise to be back at sea (20 years USN). I’ve seen a good part of the world already and the Caribbean is just fine. 

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10 hours ago, jimmy2x said:

 To be completely honest, I cruise to be back at sea (20 years USN). I’ve seen a good part of the world already and the Caribbean is just fine. 

 

I'm with you, and can relate big time. I cruise to be on a ship at sea... 24 years USN, and still love sailing the world's oceans. Currently looking at HAL's 17-day circle Hawaii sailing.. 10 full sea days.. Ahhhh! 😀

Edited by KroozNut

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Good news for you. Likely to have a lot of good deals.

 

I canceled an NA cruise departing Rome Oct 18 …

 

On Tuesday, still vacancies for inside ($1700) and veranda ($2400) . That's a huge discount from what I booked. Great for bargain hunters. Looks like same price as budget ships?

 

Next year, every cruise from May to October is still open for every category. Does it make sense to book a year ahead and pay the asking price?

 

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/find-a-cruise/E0M12E/I047.html

 

Is this the right direction for HAL?

 

 

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Why not.?  You can always cancel.  In the past we ave done four Med cruises.  Each one was booked inside the final payment window.  

 

We we narrowed it down and watched pricing on HAL, Princess, and Celebrity.  We booked when our target price for a balcony hit.    It is all down to demand,supply,and the pricing logarithms used by the various cruise lines.

 

On one occasion we cancelled a cruise just prior to final payment and re booked the same cruise two or three weeks later at a substantial discount and were still able to get a balcony in a good location.

Edited by iancal

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This WILL be my last post here.  I just had a chuckle thinking about the ways in which Hal is not what it used to be.  The chuckle?  Neither am I.  I know my chuckle has nothing to do with the topic, but I like to smile.

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I waited to vote until we completed our Oosterdam Mexico run, to make sure our summer Alaska cruise wasn't just a "one off."

I don't like the direction HAL is going.  Everything so pared down!  

The ship was in great condition, though, and lots of big families and groups seemed to be enjoying themselves.  Must be some great third- and fourth-guest deals.   But for us, no; the new HAL doesn't work for us at all.

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