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New "fee" of $14/day on Perks Drink Package to be added?

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2 hours ago, richstowe said:

Fascinating . Where did you get this info ?

Is your hypothesis that revenue P P translates directly into cruising quality (to use your term cruising tiers) ? Perhaps but not perfectly .

I found it at Wikipedia , downloaded it into Excel, and did a few calculations. Other than the obvious correlation of the top revenue lines being most associated with the ultra-premium category, while the lowest are certainly more discount and family oriented, I have no hypothesis about quality. I've only ever cruised Carnival, Princess , and Celebrity. Celebrity has been my favorite, but even in the past three years I've been with them, I've seen a stark erosion of value for the dollar spent for the same services. I still like Celebrity, but I'm looking more and more to other lines like Oceania, Silversea, or Azamara to see how they compare for future cruises. Here's the data source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cruise_lines

Edited by misterkevin
correction

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1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

"Average Revenue" is really a worthless number as it does not account for the length of a cruise.

 

You really need to consider what is provided for your money.   

 

Hard to believe that our recent 14 day Seabourn cruise actually cost a lot less then a Celebrity cruise (in a similar sized cabin) and there is no comparison between Celebrity and Seabourn when it comes to overall quality.

Three points: 

1. I wouldn't agree that the average value per passenger is a worthless statistic. However, I do agree that how the number is calculated is based on multiple factors with length of cruise driving heavily into the equation. It's true that the ultra-premium lines tend to only offer longer cruises or they tend to have cruisers who book b2b fares which drives up revenue per passenger. However, the average acts as a  proxy for cost of entry.

 

2. Value is completely subjective. What's included for the higher cost lines like premium beverages, specialty restaurant reservations, butlers, shore excursions, and transportation drives up those costs. But what's valuable to one isn't to another. One of the reasons I'm disinclined to book the higher end lines is because the entertainment which for me includes music, trivia, and shows is either lacking or classical music focused. Other people want ice rinks, roller coasters, and water parks which are lost on me.

 

3. I want to know how you got on Seabourn for less than Celebrity. Did you only ever cruise Celebrity in suites?

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We are not affected by this change, however, the rapid fire changes that LLP is making and has made has forced us to move on. Other changes that have been made did affect us, but we were loyal and hung in there. No more. Color us gone.

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We are gone as well.  We never minded paying more for Celebrity as they were a bit of a step above as far as a mass market line is concerned.  But their 'in general' fare increases and now raising rates on packages, etc has pushed us away.  They just aren't worth it.  We have 2 cruises left with them - one of them we already paid the final payment and cancelling isn't a valid option.  The other is a full transit Panama and I would rather cancel but DH would rather keep it.  We generally have 4 to 5 cruises scheduled with Celebrity, it's too bad because Celebrity always provided what we felt was a decent value for our money - but not anymore.  Others will be perfectly happy with the changes and increases and that's ok too.

Edited by vermonter16

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It isn't just the money...but the general ambiance is eroding overall. Maybe not in suites but def in  other categories,  The management is now from  Royal C   so it was to be anticipated,,, sticking with X through early  2021 but looking at Azamara again. ( Wish they had a bit larger ships) 

Edited by hcat

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1 hour ago, misterkevin said:

Three points: 

1. I wouldn't agree that the average value per passenger is a worthless statistic. However, I do agree that how the number is calculated is based on multiple factors with length of cruise driving heavily into the equation. It's true that the ultra-premium lines tend to only offer longer cruises or they tend to have cruisers who book b2b fares which drives up revenue per passenger. However, the average acts as a  proxy for cost of entry.

 

2. Value is completely subjective. What's included for the higher cost lines like premium beverages, specialty restaurant reservations, butlers, shore excursions, and transportation drives up those costs. But what's valuable to one isn't to another. One of the reasons I'm disinclined to book the higher end lines is because the entertainment which for me includes music, trivia, and shows is either lacking or classical music focused. Other people want ice rinks, roller coasters, and water parks which are lost on me.

 

3. I want to know how you got on Seabourn for less than Celebrity. Did you only ever cruise Celebrity in suites?

Actually we never book X suites but have done several AQ cruises.  But I was giving a head to head match.  On Seabourn one does get a small suite (to us it is more like an extra large Deluxe balcony cabin).  But our Seabourn bathroom had a full size tub and separate shower as well as double since.  All very nice.  Consider that Seabourn is all-inclusive and we had trouble using up our OBC in 14 days because there are so few ways to spend your money (premium wines, excursions, etc).  That Seabourn cruise cost us about $400 per passenger day...and that is the true cost with absolutely no add-ons.  Take a look at what you would pay for a 295 sq foot cabin on Celebrity, then add gratuities, premium drink package, and some money for alternative restaurants (no charge on Seabourn).  Even a Sky Suite on Celebrity is smaller but if you use that as a comparison Celebrity actually would cost more.

 

This has long been an argument by those who routinely use the luxury lines.  Many will tell you that once you compare apples to apples the luxury lines are a better value and often less expensive then the comparable cabin (plus add ons) on mass market lines.  This is not always true as luxury lines can often cost $800 per passenger/day and more....but when you get a good price (like we did on Seabourn) it is true that the luxury line is a much better value.  In fact if you simply consider the space ratio on our Seabourn ship (over 80 tons per passenger) vs most Celebrity ships (in the area of 40 tons per passenger) it makes those luxury lines an even better value.  We never had to fight to get a seat in the Lido, showroom, or on deck.  Sit in a deck lounger and a waiter would be at your seat within a min and would bring you any drink and even food.  Want room service and you can get just about anything.  When I asked to have some Cognac stocked in our mini-bar (no extra charge) our stewardess left a full 750ml bottle of decent cognac (Imagine what they would charge on X).  Or consider that I could sit at the bar on Seabourn and order a large serving of Caviar and some French Champagne....for no extra charge.  If they even had that quality of caviar on X it would probably cost me $70 - $100 for a single portion.

 

Hank

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24 minutes ago, hcat said:

It isn't just the money...but the general ambiance is eroding overall. Maybe not in suites but def in  other categories,  The management is now from  Royal C   so it was to be anticipated,,, sticking with X through early  2021 but looking at Azamara again. ( Wish they had a bit larger ships) 

Totally with you on this.  

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11 minutes ago, hcat said:

It isn't just the money...but the general ambiance is eroding overall. Maybe not in suites but def in  other categories,  The management is now from  Royal C   so it was to be anticipated,,, sticking with X through early  2021 but looking at Azamara again. ( Wish they had a bit larger ships) 

 

We have our first Azamara cruise in 11 days.  Looking forward to it, but we also like the size of M class ships.  My fear is that the Lutoff-Perlo, who is in love with suites and her "Edge" concept, who is on her way to ruining S Class, will also ruin the M class ships.  I know there are many of us who hopes her "revolution" goes up in flames.

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4 hours ago, vtcruising said:

Not quite good-bye. For existing reservations, will have to figure in the $14/day addition when taking advantage of new offers, if chose beverage package (still might be worthwhile to change), though after 10/10 all of the new reservations will already be charged the surcharge, if beverage pkg chosen, so won’t have to keep paying the surcharge over and over for each change in reservations. 

Thanks for pointing that out.  One would have to figure if the BP is worth more/less than a price drop or new offer.

 

I'll be interested in hearing from cruisers booking & sailing after Oct 10 how Future Cruise handles it, if offered. If not, we'll pick another desirable perk. We always do FC because they make it very enticing.

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18 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Actually we never book X suites but have done several AQ cruises.  But I was giving a head to head match.  On Seabourn one does get a small suite (to us it is more like an extra large Deluxe balcony cabin).  But our Seabourn bathroom had a full size tub and separate shower as well as double since.  All very nice.  Consider that Seabourn is all-inclusive and we had trouble using up our OBC in 14 days because there are so few ways to spend your money (premium wines, excursions, etc).  That Seabourn cruise cost us about $400 per passenger day...and that is the true cost with absolutely no add-ons.  Take a look at what you would pay for a 295 sq foot cabin on Celebrity, then add gratuities, premium drink package, and some money for alternative restaurants (no charge on Seabourn).  Even a Sky Suite on Celebrity is smaller but if you use that as a comparison Celebrity actually would cost more.

 

This has long been an argument by those who routinely use the luxury lines.  Many will tell you that once you compare apples to apples the luxury lines are a better value and often less expensive then the comparable cabin (plus add ons) on mass market lines.  This is not always true as luxury lines can often cost $800 per passenger/day and more....but when you get a good price (like we did on Seabourn) it is true that the luxury line is a much better value.  In fact if you simply consider the space ratio on our Seabourn ship (over 80 tons per passenger) vs most Celebrity ships (in the area of 40 tons per passenger) it makes those luxury lines an even better value.  We never had to fight to get a seat in the Lido, showroom, or on deck.  Sit in a deck lounger and a waiter would be at your seat within a min and would bring you any drink and even food.  Want room service and you can get just about anything.  When I asked to have some Cognac stocked in our mini-bar (no extra charge) our stewardess left a full 750ml bottle of decent cognac (Imagine what they would charge on X).  Or consider that I could sit at the bar on Seabourn and order a large serving of Caviar and some French Champagne....for no extra charge.  If they even had that quality of caviar on X it would probably cost me $70 - $100 for a single portion.

 

Hank

 

 

Hank

This sounds unbelievably wonderful.

If you don't mind - can I ask when and where you sailed?

We've just about had it with Celebrity (I agree with everyone about the ambience changing) and this seems like a good fit.

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2 minutes ago, chamima said:

 

 

Hank

This sounds unbelievably wonderful.

If you don't mind - can I ask when and where you sailed?

We've just about had it with Celebrity (I agree with everyone about the ambience changing) and this seems like a good fit.

Our cruise was a 14 day Alaskan (Seward to Vancouver) on the Soujourn.  Was it perfect?  No, but a darn good product...especially at the price Seabourn was charging for their Alaskan cruises.  And consider we only had about 420 on our cruise.  One big adjustment from lines like X is that the Lido buffet had a smaller selection...although the quality of what they offered did shine.  If I wanted blue cheese it was Roquefort, shrimp were large and there was table service...in the buffet area where you could order food items.  Small ship cruising is a different experience and we can imagine some of those used to always cruising large ships not being happy with the smaller size.   But we did love never having to deal with queues....anywhere!  For those interested in nature, our ship had its own Zodiacs. Kayaks with the professional staff to handle that stuff (we are talking about marine biologists, licensed captains running the zodiacs, etc).  Or course Zodiac and Kayak tours were pricey.

 

Hank 

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We're fine with the small ships.

We've sailed them many times on Princess - the Tahitian (which became the Ocean), the old Royal and now the Pacific are some of our favorite cruises.

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The Wikipedia data doesn't tie back to Royal's financials.  Passenger count falls somewhere between what they reported for 2017 and 2018.  Have no idea where the revenue numbers for X came from as RCCL doesn't break out line of business financial data in either their annual report or SEC filings.  Some other listed cruise lines are privately held and do not report their financials.  For competitive reasons doubt they would release information they didn't have to.

 

As others said the meaningful number for analysis is revenue pp/per day. 

For 2q 2019 the 3 major companies reported rev pp/pd of:

 

                                                               CCL      RCL        NCLH

Tickets                                               $143     $178            $235

Onboard                                                 69          70                97

Total                                                   $212      $248           $332

 

None broke this information down by brand.  Total NCLH likely highest due to weighting of Oceania and Regent vs NCL.

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My next two sailings on celebrity are avg 250 pp with 2 perks in concierge c1 that’s including air n excursions.  I have 2 perks.  I have never paid higher than 275 pp per night.  Seaborn or silver seas etc would be great but hey all average out at least Minimum 150 pp per night.  Yes definitely better overall but doesn’t appeal to me at this point.  Chaise lounge clean room good service wide selection of food etc is what I look for.  Movies tote bags shampoo not so important. To some it is and that’s fine. Celebrity still works for me even with the 28 per night increase with beverage. I look at the other lines and do compare always. But for basic Caribbean still good. When I look for European definitely different story most likely will go for river cruise or something much more intimate 

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Just MHO but I would not say we are done with X yet, just this week before BP increase, we booked 2 more cruises. We don't NEED the BP as we don't drink a lot but the water and coffee included is nice.

We have NO interest in Edgey ships as we don't care about fashionable, just serviceable and comfortable and at the current prices and where they sail, not for us. We like the M class ships as they go where Edge can't at this point in time. Even the S class isn't bad.

 

Bottom line we will sail X when there is somewhere we want to go for a price we want to pay. Just got back from a HAL cruise and we were pleasantly surprised. No  trying to sell BP or spa services every 2 steps you take . There were tables set up if you wanted specialty dinning, spa or BP but you went to them. They also offered a "happy hour" where you got a drink for set price and another of the same for $2, that worked great for us. So when the "deal" is right for us we will take it, as it should be, I will never say never, except maybe for Carnival, unless I "win" a cruise on them.

 

There are other good products out there and we all should do what is best for ourselves.

Linda

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2 hours ago, JOVERNITE said:

Thanks for pointing that out.  One would have to figure if the BP is worth more/less than a price drop or new offer.

 

I'll be interested in hearing from cruisers booking & sailing after Oct 10 how Future Cruise handles it, if offered. If not, we'll pick another desirable perk. We always do FC because they make it very enticing.

 

It will be handled like booking via any other source.  Select a bev package as a perk and the booking software will add $14 pp/pd to your cruise fare.   It would be interesting to hear if the Future Cruise Consultant explains this to the client.

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24 minutes ago, wrk2cruise said:

 

It will be handled like booking via any other source.  Select a bev package as a perk and the booking software will add $14 pp/pd to your cruise fare.   It would be interesting to hear if the Future Cruise Consultant explains this to the client.

 

Interesting point!!!

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Here is my fear: RCCL has “dynamic pricing” on their ships. The price of certain items, especially the beverage package changes depending on demand for it on a specific cruise. Unlike Celebrity, where the price stays the same, if you buy the BP on RCCL it varies. It can vary from one day to the next within the same cruise. I am afraid that this will be Celebrity’s next step. Remove the BP as a perk. If you want it, you must buy it, and then they will play games with the pricing. 

Edited by Straughn

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When did the gratuities increase to 20%?

Have they increased Specialty Dining Pkgs. prices ?

 

I booked a B2B cruise 6 weeks ago.  Today price is $1500 more, gratuity now not included that’s $609 more, Bev. Pkg that’s $588 more, obc is $100 less.

That’s $2800 more or a price hike of 45%  - My last Celebrity Cruise I think..........!

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14 minutes ago, mickey89 said:

When did the gratuities increase to 20%?

 

 

I forgot to note that.

I was under the impression that gratuities were 18% but when I called last week to upgrade our Classic package to the Premium it was an even $12/pp/day rather than the $11.80 I expected.

Not a big deal but I don't remember being notified of the change.

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4 hours ago, bikerunner said:

My next two sailings on celebrity are avg 250 pp with 2 perks in concierge c1 that’s including air n excursions.  I have 2 perks.  I have never paid higher than 275 pp per night.  Seaborn or silver seas etc would be great but hey all average out at least Minimum 150 pp per night.  Yes definitely better overall but doesn’t appeal to me at this point.  Chaise lounge clean room good service wide selection of food etc is what I look for.  Movies tote bags shampoo not so important. To some it is and that’s fine. Celebrity still works for me even with the 28 per night increase with beverage. I look at the other lines and do compare always. But for basic Caribbean still good. When I look for European definitely different story most likely will go for river cruise or something much more intimate 

For us Celebrity still works if it’s the Caribbean and we go for the ship anyway. We were around £125 per person per night this time including the drinks package in an 1A room. We can’t get near that with any of the luxury lines and we’re more than happy with the product we received. As with yourself we don’t stress about many of the little things but concentrate on what’s important to us, the staff, overall service, food ( we ate in Murano five times, Sushi on 5  twice, Tuscan one time, buffet twice, and the MDR the one time ( as poor as last time and not to be repeated). They all met our expectations, if not we would simply have cruised another line next time but we see no reason to change at the moment.

Edited by yorky

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1 hour ago, Straughn said:

Here is my fear: RCCL has “dynamic pricing” on their ships. The price of certain items, especially the beverage package changes depending on demand for it on a specific cruise. Unlike Celebrity, where the price stays the same, if you buy the BP on RCCL it varies. It can vary from one day to the next within the same cruise. I am afraid that this will be Celebrity’s next step. Remove the BP as a perk. If you want it, you must buy it, and then they will play games with the pricing. 

Well then, that really will be when I say good-bye to Celebrity.  There's just too many other options out there to have to deal with that kind of variability.

Edited by Georgia_Peaches

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2 hours ago, wrk2cruise said:

 

It will be handled like booking via any other source.  Select a bev package as a perk and the booking software will add $14 pp/pd to your cruise fare.   It would be interesting to hear if the Future Cruise Consultant explains this to the client.

I know it will be the $14/pp/pd. I wrote "I'll be interested in hearing from cruisers booking & sailing after Oct 10 how Future Cruise handles it" meaning the same thing. 

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3 hours ago, Straughn said:

Here is my fear: RCCL has “dynamic pricing” on their ships. The price of certain items, especially the beverage package changes depending on demand for it on a specific cruise. Unlike Celebrity, where the price stays the same, if you buy the BP on RCCL it varies. It can vary from one day to the next within the same cruise. I am afraid that this will be Celebrity’s next step. Remove the BP as a perk. If you want it, you must buy it, and then they will play games with the pricing. 

Dynamic pricing sounds more like going to the local fish market than  on a Modern Luxury cruise!

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