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On 10/7/2019 at 11:03 PM, new_cruiser said:

 

I've never gone through them personally, but from what others have experienced, the alternative procedures are very time consuming. There has to be some way for a person to board if, for example, they are away from home and their wallet gets stolen so they have no ID, but in that case, the person can realize that they need to show up to the airport early for an extended procedure. 

 

If someone showed up without a RealID or passport because they didn't know that the old type of driver's license wasn't going to cut it anymore, they probably wouldn't have enough time to make their flight with the alternative process. From people who have been through it, I've heard it can take like an hour (off in a side interview room, not in the regular line). It can involve the kind of questions where some service supplies facts about you and you have to supply the answers (similar to verifying who you are for some kinds of on-line services). Basically, they go through alternative ways of verifying that you are who you say you are. 

 

It isn't something that any one with any sense would do just for the heck of it. 

 

Edited to add, I don't know if they'd even allow the alternative procedure to be used for someone who didn't bring the right ID because they hadn't gotten the right kind of license. That's not the same as the hardship reason of being away from home and having a lost/stolen ID.


It happened to my SIL--her handbag was stolen from someone reaching over the top of the stall in a ladies room and grabbing it from the hook and running off.  She had a police report, an old college ID, a library card, and her birth certificate.  She had a full body search and they searched and swabbed all of her items.  It was over an hour start to finish.  I think having the police report helped a lot in how they treated her.

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On 10/7/2019 at 11:20 PM, new_cruiser said:

 

Apparently we don't know that yet. The news report I just read said she didn't have ID or a boarding pass when she was on the plane. We don't know if she had an ID and a boarding pass (or alternative) when she was screened.

 

There are some alternatives to a boarding pass that can get you through TSA. E.g. you are standby on a flight so instead of a boarding pass you have something similar that says you are standby. I've had that when a canceled flight meant that I had to stay overnight someplace and try to get on another flight standby the next day. Parents (or other adults) escorting an "unescorted minor" to the gate so they can start their trip or picking up an unescorted minor at the gate. 

 

And of course all the airport workers who don't have boarding passes get in without one. 

 

I'm surprised that the person got on the plane without a boarding pass. I've boarded a lot of flights, dozens per year, and usually the gate staff is pretty good - you can't walk by them without scanning a boarding pass. I guess anything can happen once. 


She was not booked onto any flight, had not shows a government issued ID, and had not had any sort of "pass."  Airport and TSA  officials are being very tight lipped which tells me a number of people are going to end up fired over this.  And rightfully so.

 

I'd also add that the two responding officers will very likely face discipline for allowing her to just walk away after she left the plane.

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On 10/8/2019 at 2:29 AM, slidergirl said:

Can you say "full body strip search in a private room" and "full search of all your luggage" and "an hour of interrogation"???  I've got a nice woman who checked into the hotel tonight - she lost her wallet somewhere between the boarding gate and baggage claim.  Delta said she has to go through their online service to fill out a form before they'll look.   She had her husband do screenshots of the front and back of a joint credit card and send them to her so we had a credit card to put on her reservation.  She's going to Venmo (or whatever that is called) a friend at the conference to get some cash.    But, she's going to have major issues when she tries to fly back.  She can show screenshots of stuff, but it's going to be interesting how long it's going to take her to get through TSA on the way back.  I thought of having her DH Fedex her work badge to the hotel so she'd at least have something with her name and face on it to maybe ease the pain.  

 

Back when they started having the "show your ID at security", my now-ex discovered he lost his drivers license on the way back from Arizona.  He used his officials license from a sport we juried on - it had his photo and name on it.  He also had his Costco credit card that had his name on it.  They let him through!!!


My SIL didn't get strip searched.  She was wanded and had a very full pat down.  She was also not "interrogated,"  they asked a few questions to help identify her through their systems--I believe they were actually able to pull up her license with photo from the DMV database.  Again, she had a police report, which probably helped.  She said they were polite and even sympathetic.

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On 10/8/2019 at 12:50 PM, Donray said:

With an estimated 70,000 showing up the first day and maybe one person capable of doing the screening if you no ID how long will the wait time be to get the No ID check??????????


Hopefully they will have a corral to herd them all into and out of the regular lines.

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On 10/8/2019 at 1:54 PM, sparks1093 said:

I doubt that there would be thousands and I'm sure that the airlines and travel agents will be advising customers. If the DHS FAQ is any indication then they will be playing hardball, but something tells me that in this day and age that will quickly fall by the wayside (the lack of political will that I mentioned earlier). I personally don't care since I have two forms of acceptable ID- my EDL and in the event I'm careless enough to allow it to be stolen I have my passport.


I have no doubt that there will be thousands.  1.73 people fly in the US every day.  Some simply won't be aware.  Some will think they are already compliant. Some will have gotten bad info from airline personnel or ill-informed TA's (and there are MANY of those out there).  Some will think it doesn't apply to them. 

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On 10/8/2019 at 2:18 PM, SRF said:

 

I am not sure how she go through TSA.

 

But I could see, and I remember it having happened before, that when boarding the flight, the person attaches them to a large family group, where the boarding passes are handed to the agent in a stack.  They scan them, check visually, and send them through.  I can see with a large group, where they might miss that they scanned 5 but 6 walked on.  Especially of the person stays somewhat hidden from sight by the others.

 

In many foreign airports, each person has to present their own boarding pass, and ID, when boarding.


Heck, in DUB coming back to the US after you've cleared not only DUB security but all US CBP and TSA, you still need to show your passport prior to boarding.

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2 hours ago, ducklite said:

Anyone who still believes that this billion dollar boondoggle called TSA is doing a single thing to protect you from the bogeyman is delusional.  

I've tried to remain positive but this pushed me over the edge.

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2 hours ago, ducklite said:


She was sitting in a seat assigned to another woman and refused to move.  The rightful "owner" of the seat went to an FA and complained.  The "stowaway" couldn't produce a boarding pass of government ID and refused to move.  Police were called, and the best part is that the lady slipped away and they had no idea who she even was.  What a Laurel and Hardy story.

 

OK, here is some SSI (sensitive security information). Failure to apprehend the woman should have resulted in evacuating the terminal and rescreening everyone.

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3 minutes ago, CPT Trips said:

 

OK, here is some SSI (sensitive security information). Failure to apprehend the woman should have resulted in evacuating the terminal and rescreening everyone.


They can kiss my behind if they think I'm going to be further inconvenienced because they can't do the most basic elements of their jobs.  Fire them first and until then, talk to the hand.

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3 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

I know a lot of younger people who also meet that definition (with the exception of jury duty and if not having a REAL ID gets you out of Federal jury duty that would be seen as a plus by many).

 

Which is a huge shame for those of us who do our civic duty and serve when called. I am already getting called every year or two for federal and district court jury service. If fewer people are serving it puts a burden on everyone else....

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3 hours ago, ducklite said:


My SIL didn't get strip searched.  She was wanded and had a very full pat down.  She was also not "interrogated,"  they asked a few questions to help identify her through their systems--I believe they were actually able to pull up her license with photo from the DMV database.  Again, she had a police report, which probably helped.  She said they were polite and even sympathetic.

Your SIL was lucky she had decent smurfs doing her SSSS.   Some aren't so lucky.  

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47 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Which is a huge shame for those of us who do our civic duty and serve when called. I am already getting called every year or two for federal and district court jury service. If fewer people are serving it puts a burden on everyone else....


I've been called half a dozen times, once got out of it because I had a vacation scheduled, a few times because when I called in the day before I learned that my pool number wasn't selected and I didn't need to report.

 

One time I sat through the entire thing and wasn't picked, and another time when I arrived I learned that one of my best friends was representing the plaintiff, I immediately told the clerk who told the judge who called up the attorneys for a quick conversation and I was out of there in about three minutes flat.

 

A year after I moved to Florida and changed my license over, I got summoned from NJ.  I wrote back and sent a copy of my new DL and a letter stating I no longer lived in NJ, and the summons with the forwarding sticker.  Two months later I got another summons.  I sent that back as well with a much more stern letter.  Three months after that I got yet another summons.  I called up there and left a message that I wasn't using any more of my stamps to fix their problem, and if they wanted me there they could send a deputy to come pick me up.  I never heard back.

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4 hours ago, ducklite said:


They can kiss my behind if they think I'm going to be further inconvenienced because they can't do the most basic elements of their jobs.  Fire them first and until then, talk to the hand.

 

When they do a terminal dump (very rare), the local LEOs get involved. No kisses, just more inconvenience.

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9 minutes ago, CPT Trips said:

 

When they do a terminal dump (very rare), the local LEOs get involved. No kisses, just more inconvenience.


The local LEO's were part of the problem in this case, because they allowed the lady to just walk away instead of being detained after she was removed from the plane.  The innocent flying public should not have to be researched because the bunch of idiots parading the illusion of safety can't do their jobs.   Go ahead and dump the terminal then parade a bunch of LEO, TSA, and gate agents away down the perp walk in handcuffs before asking the public to bend over and cough due to a trifecta of incompetence.  

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15 hours ago, ducklite said:


The local LEO's were part of the problem in this case, because they allowed the lady to just walk away instead of being detained after she was removed from the plane.  The innocent flying public should not have to be researched because the bunch of idiots parading the illusion of safety can't do their jobs.   Go ahead and dump the terminal then parade a bunch of LEO, TSA, and gate agents away down the perp walk in handcuffs before asking the public to bend over and cough due to a trifecta of incompetence.  

Shouldn't have to maybe but it would happen none the less and the traveling public would have no real recourse. Any human endeavor is going to have human failures and that includes security. Hopefully they do an appropriate after action and make the necessary corrections (which would of course include appropriate discipline).

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30 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Shouldn't have to maybe but it would happen none the less and the traveling public would have no real recourse. Any human endeavor is going to have human failures and that includes security. Hopefully they do an appropriate after action and make the necessary corrections (which would of course include appropriate discipline).

 

The people who caused the fiasco should be the ones under suspicion, not a bunch of innocent people who were already inconvenienced due to ineptitude.  

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41 minutes ago, ducklite said:

 

The people who caused the fiasco should be the ones under suspicion, not a bunch of innocent people who were already inconvenienced due to ineptitude.  

I agree, but if they were inept in one instance then they may have been inept in more so they have to double check. Still, if you are there what alternatives do you have? None that I'm aware of (unless you want to walk away from your flight), you still need to go through the additional screening.

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21 hours ago, ducklite said:


...

 

One time I sat through the entire thing and wasn't picked, and another time when I arrived I learned that one of my best friends was representing the plaintiff, I immediately told the clerk who told the judge who called up the attorneys for a quick conversation and I was out of there in about three minutes flat.

 

...

Dismissal “for cause” keeps a lot of people off juries — a bank officer is rarely seated on a civil liability case, and a former collateral duty  shore patrol officer rarely sits on a criminal case.

Edited by navybankerteacher
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On 10/8/2019 at 11:23 AM, SRF said:

 

Easy, you present a non-REAL ID DL, and nope, you don't fly, unless you have another complaint ID.

 

If you come up and state your DL was stolen, they run you through the alternative screening.

When they run you through alternative screening, that probably will include looking up your DMV record so once they've done that,  they will know whether the missing license/ID was a Real-ID license/ID. 

 

However, thinking about Day 1 of the requirement - there will be people who flew out-of-state in Sept 2020 so they are out-of-state wanting to fly home on or after Oct 2020. Not sure how that will be handled. Do they have to take the train/bus to get home? My son lost his DL while away at college in another state so we checked and there is no way to even get a replacement license without showing up in person at the DMV. (He either found it and, if he hadn't, could have used his passport.) I hope  that most students attending college out of state will realize that they need to get a real-ID license before they leave for school in Fall 2020 if they want to fly home. 

 

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On 10/6/2019 at 1:27 PM, cruisemom42 said:

 

I haven't read this thread in depth so pardons if this has already been asked/answered....  If you will need a real ID to enter a Federal courthouse, what happens if you are summoned for jury duty and don't have one?

 

(Having just served on a Federal jury for 10 days, I'm pretty sure our Federal courthouse would be one of the types of Federal buildings impacted?)

 

It isn't just juries. There are defendants and witnesses -people who may be compelled to be at the courthouse because they are involved in the case but might not have Real ID. 

 

At least anyone summoned for a jury should be a citizen and therefore at least able to get a real ID. Defendants and witnesses may not be citizens or legal residents and therefore not able to get a Real ID and they might not have a suitable ID from another country. Not sure how that's going to be handled.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, new_cruiser said:

It isn't just juries. There are defendants and witnesses -people who may be compelled to be at the courthouse because they are involved in the case but might not have Real ID. 

 

At least anyone summoned for a jury should be a citizen and therefore at least able to get a real ID. Defendants and witnesses may not be citizens or legal residents and therefore not able to get a Real ID and they might not have a suitable ID from another country. Not sure how that's going to be handled.

 

 


I don't think that people should be forced to spend time and money (and in some cases expensive taxi rides) to get a REAL ID to serve jury duty or be a witness in a trial.  Not everyone drives, not everyone can afford to take the time off from work to go to DMV and pay as much as $90 to get an ID so they can enter a courthouse because they had the unfortunate luck to be in a convenience store buying a pack of gum when the place was held up, and not everyone has access to mass transit.


If our government wants us to have REAL ID's to get into courthouses, they need to figure out a way to pay for them for those who can't afford them and would never need one unless they were dragged into a courthouse because of someone else's problems.  

Edited by ducklite
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1 hour ago, new_cruiser said:

It isn't just juries. There are defendants and witnesses -people who may be compelled to be at the courthouse because they are involved in the case but might not have Real ID. 

 

At least anyone summoned for a jury should be a citizen and therefore at least able to get a real ID. Defendants and witnesses may not be citizens or legal residents and therefore not able to get a Real ID and they might not have a suitable ID from another country. Not sure how that's going to be handled.

 

 

 

Jury pools are typically pulled from driver's license, property tax, and voter lists. Two of these don't require citizenship.

 

REAL ID has nothing to do with airport or federal building security. After all, Tim McVeigh, Aaron Alexis, and Nadal Hasan were natural born US citizens who could have gotten REAL ID. In fact two of them possessed REAL ID compliant cards. 

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12 minutes ago, CPT Trips said:

 

Jury pools are typically pulled from driver's license, property tax, and voter lists. Two of these don't require citizenship.

 

REAL ID has nothing to do with airport or federal building security. After all, Tim McVeigh, Aaron Alexis, and Nadal Hasan were natural born US citizens who could have gotten REAL ID. In fact two of them possessed REAL ID compliant cards. 

 

That may be how they get the info for sending the summons for jury duty, but you have to be a citizen to be qualified to serve on a federal jury:

https://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/jury-service/juror-qualifications

 

The same is true for California juries - I don't know about other states. 

https://www.courts.ca.gov/juryservice.htm

 

When you get the a California jury duty summons, there is a form to send back if you don't qualify, have a reason that excuses you from service or need a change of dates. One of the reasons for not qualifying is not being a citizen. 

 

I agree that being a citizen doesn't mean you are a good or even a safe person. The ID just provides a (hopefully) hard to falsify way to verify that you are the person you say you are. After that, other measures such as checking against no-fly lists to see if the person with that identity is known to be a risk. 

Edited by new_cruiser
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