sail7seas Posted November 15, 2019 #101 Share Posted November 15, 2019 8 hours ago, Krazy Kruizers said: I do believe that you have hot the nail on the head. But don't you mean 2 Signature class ships and 3 Pinnacle ships will be left? Noordam ( a Vista ) has been in the fleet 13 years. Maybe you cut her life in HAL's fleet expectancy too short? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sail7seas Posted November 15, 2019 #102 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, rkacruiser said: The broader choice of amenities on the newer ships surely is more of an attraction for those seeking a cruise vacation. The Hydrothermal Pool in the Greenhouse Spa of the older ships is a "joke" as compared to what is available on the more recently built ships just as an example. The ship management on the ship on which I sail is what I think influences the cruise I experience. If the ship's Master, the Hotel Director, the Food and Beverage Manager, the Chief Housekeeper, the Executive Chef and the specialty restaurant Chefs and their staff under his/her supervision, and the MDR Manager perform to what, I think, HAL standards are: my cruise will meet my expectations and will probably exceed them. I have enough HAL experience to believe the ship's management is significant to my cruise experience. I had a 21 day Noordam cruise that was as disappointing of a HAL cruise as it might be. And, I was not the only 5 Star Mariner with whom I spoke felt the same way. A previous Noordam cruise was as good as it could have been. It's not the ship. It's the ship's management. It's Corporate Office's responsibility to hire and make clear to those whom are hired for the management positions on the ship what cruise experience a guest should experience. For my Noordam cruise that was so disappointing, I think the disappointment starts at the top. The Master only appeared, seemingly grudgingly, at required events and rapidly disappeared after them. The HD? When did I ever see him other than the Mariner Society program? If I am not seeing those "in charge", then the crew are not either. There is a non-verbal message there to the rest of the ship's compliment, I think, that impacted my experience on that Noordam cruise. Tighter management of the guest experience on HAL cruises from those in their Seattle offices will provide a better cruise experience in my opinion. I totally agree the senior officers on a given ship are SO very important and nOT only in terms of safety (which, of course, always rules) However, as good as ghey may be individually and as a team, so many rules, regs and budget comes from Seattle, entertainment is what they send them, provisions are from dictated vendors changes to expected scheduling and iinerearies are approved or Not in headquarters. Captain is Master of his vessel but he answers to those who control the checkbook in most in stances . bUT, Dont forget the staff captain, a n important position not always fully recognized IMO And , how respectful are the 'powers' in Settle to these Captains HD's, Chefs etc,e t c ??? When they have joint meetings? I can't put my finger on why, bu t I suspect they may be ' under-appreciated?' Edited November 15, 2019 by sail7seas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare cruisemom42 Posted November 15, 2019 #103 Share Posted November 15, 2019 3 hours ago, rkacruiser said: Perhaps a reduction in the size of the HAL fleet will allow for corporate headquarters to gain better control of what each of their ships' cruise experience offers to the guest. My opinion: the HAL fleet has become too large to ensure the standards that are expected to be met on X-Dam are met on the Y-Dam. My opinion is based on my HAL cruise experience. 53 minutes ago, rkacruiser said: The broader choice of amenities on the newer ships surely is more of an attraction for those seeking a cruise vacation. The Hydrothermal Pool in the Greenhouse Spa of the older ships is a "joke" as compared to what is available on the more recently built ships just as an example. While I don't disagree with you at all that HAL needs to offer a more consistent experience, I also think HAL has two different audiences: those who cruise for the cruise experience and enjoy having more on offer that only the somewhat larger ships can provide (the "broader choice of amenities" you reference), and those who cruise for the travel experience -- the ports and off-ship experiences weigh much more in the balance with them. The latter group tend to like the longer and more varied itineraries that HAL can offer on smaller ships. Larger ships (in general, there are a few exceptions) tend to offer shorter, more "cookie cutter" itineraries. Why? The cruise line has to fill a large number of berths week after week. Not everyone is interested in or can afford long itineraries, so these are often offered on the smaller ships. So if HAL pares down to her newer, larger ships, will HAL lose these customers.....and if so, where will they go instead? I'm very interested in knowing the answer, because I also am looking for other lines that offer what I'm after. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YXU AC*SE Posted November 15, 2019 #104 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, rkacruiser said: I have enough HAL experience to believe the ship's management is significant to my cruise experience. I'm at 300-days-ish now, so not nearly as learned as you, but management is mostly an invisible thing to me. The HAL standard is that -- a standard. Meet it or don't. I'm not one of these customers who needs to know the name of my ship's master, HD, or CD to enjoy my cruise. Tertiarily, I know who they are, but I my cruise is neither made nor broken with knowing who these individuals are. So, Copper 10-8, you may stand down sir, I will never query the name of a hotman. Just as I don't query the name of my pilot, service director, gate agent, FA, or SuperÉlite concierge when I fly. I just don't know how one -- under a single brand -- can equate a Maasdam / EXC experience with a world cruise / grand voyage and/or segment thereof with a Med / Caribbean / Baltic / Hawai'i / Alaska loop on an high(er)-capacity ship? Nor do I see a logical value chain or customer progression to higher-yielding cruises? It seems that HAL's best (or should I say most encompassing) customer experience is leveraged by volume to yield lower pax per diems, and in order to trade up on the value chain I have to forsake a Tamarind or a Music Walk or a 270 degree mainstage experience (or, or, or ... ) to get to super-interesting itins, but pedestrian onboard experience? Aa a strategy, it's somewhat incoherent? It might be eased by at some point dropping the S- and R- classed ships, and then introducing something supra-Pinnacle? At least then the fleet would be on somewhat of an equal footing in terms of customer experience, whereby itinerary would be the main point of differentiation. The only way i see it making sense is today, instead of looking at the brand as a value chain, look at the entire Carnival fleet as a value chain and retaining revenue that way? It might explain the onslaught of the Princess marketing material, push e-mail, and direct PCC solicitations I have been receiving in the last nine months or so. As always though, YMMV. Scott. Edited November 15, 2019 by YXU AC*SE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bEwAbG Posted November 15, 2019 #105 Share Posted November 15, 2019 On 11/13/2019 at 10:30 AM, HappyInVan said: In the meantime, management is trying to justify their pay by periodical twerks. Suggestive dancing with magazines? 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare *Miss G* Posted November 15, 2019 #106 Share Posted November 15, 2019 13 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said: While I don't disagree with you at all that HAL needs to offer a more consistent experience, I also think HAL has two different audiences: those who cruise for the cruise experience and enjoy having more on offer that only the somewhat larger ships can provide (the "broader choice of amenities" you reference), and those who cruise for the travel experience -- the ports and off-ship experiences weigh much more in the balance with them. The latter group tend to like the longer and more varied itineraries that HAL can offer on smaller ships. I guess I am a hybrid because I like the longer, more varied, itineraries but prefer the clean and current style (most notably the bathrooms) on Pinnacle-class. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare *Miss G* Posted November 15, 2019 #107 Share Posted November 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, YXU AC*SE said: So, Copper 10-8, you may stand down sir, I will never query the name of a hotman. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YXU AC*SE Posted November 15, 2019 #108 Share Posted November 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, *Miss G* said: ? Hot-el-Man-ager. :) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Copper10-8 Posted November 15, 2019 #109 Share Posted November 15, 2019 4 hours ago, *Miss G* said: ? I got it! I sat down immediately 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyInVan Posted November 15, 2019 #110 Share Posted November 15, 2019 18 hours ago, AncientWanderer said: And four Vista-class. Sorry. The Vista ships are old. First Vista ship started service in 2002. That means the design dated back to 1999. By 2025, that generation will be 25 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare cruisemom42 Posted November 15, 2019 #111 Share Posted November 15, 2019 15 hours ago, *Miss G* said: I guess I am a hybrid because I like the longer, more varied, itineraries but prefer the clean and current style (most notably the bathrooms) on Pinnacle-class. Well there you go. Every good theory needs outliers. Much as I am sorry to say so, I think HAL will have to get rid of the smaller ships. Given current pricing structure, I don't think they can afford to update/overhaul them as needed to keep them in service RELIABLY and keep passengers happy. Even I, much as I love smaller ships, am hesitant to sail on the older HAL ships to minimize the euphemistic occurrence of "ship happens". I remember seeing an astronomically huge number as to how much Oceania paid to update/renovate the R-class ship they obtained from Princess in order to bring her up to standard. I can't see HAL spending that kind of money on the older ships in her line. Anyone know how much Phoenix Reissen paid to update Prinsendam? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare kazu Posted November 15, 2019 #112 Share Posted November 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said: Anyone know how much Phoenix Reissen paid to update Prinsendam? It was estimated originally to be 25 million euros. I believe they spent more than that IIRC - something just under 40 million. Still a lot cheaper than buying a new ship though. And Prinsendam was a well built, quality ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryndam Posted November 15, 2019 #113 Share Posted November 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said: Anyone know how much Phoenix Reissen paid to update Prinsendam? The refurb costs were reported in "excess of 25M Euro" on the Blohm + Voss website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floridiana Posted November 15, 2019 #114 Share Posted November 15, 2019 2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said: Anyone know how much Phoenix Reissen paid to update Prinsendam? 40 million Euros according to another German website, forgot which one. They redid all cabins (except bathrooms), all public areas with one exception that looks like the old Pinnacle restaurant. They took out the center pool which is now a large outdoor area with tables for the many Germans who like to eat outdoors in fine weather, think beer garden without trees. I don't know what they did with the technical areas. The ship has excellent itineraries and moderate drink prices. Included are wine and juice with meals. It addresses the middle market segment that doesn't want to pay for the expensive super luxury Hapag Lloyd ships that also travel around the world. HAL also has these itineraries, but not all German speakers are comfortable with an almost entirely Anglophone environment although HAL offers German language information. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunelm Posted November 15, 2019 #115 Share Posted November 15, 2019 On 11/13/2019 at 9:36 AM, iancal said: ^agree completely with this. Sad, but I think accurate. It is what happens when there is no vision, no direction, and an over dependence on a loyal customer base that is shrinking by choice and by age. Maybe we should try thinking outside the box. Perhaps HAL is thinking about the future, knowing that our planet is quickly running out of resources that are needed to survive, especially the resources that concern transport, food and many others that we take for granted. By refusing to buy into the massive movers of folk on the sea, HAL may be acting wisely. I am hoping that the MS Koningsdam and its sister ship will be as far as they go with size. They are beautiful ships; however, with declining resources prices will surely rise for any cruise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyInVan Posted November 15, 2019 #116 Share Posted November 15, 2019 On 11/14/2019 at 2:22 PM, rkacruiser said: Assuming that there are 3 Pinnacle Class ships and 2 Signature Class ships in service in 2028, maybe that might not be a terrible thing in the interest of restoring the on-board experience to what those of us who have sailed on HAL since the '70's recall and still desire when we embark a HAL vessel. Today's Oceania Cruises, whose self described description is a "premium cruise line", seems to be recognized by many who sail on their ships as being a "premium" experience, have a fleet of 6 ships. There is an opportunity in the premium segment as Celebrity and Princess are also vacating the premium segment as they build bigger ships. Viking is sailing into the sweet spot with their eighteen smaller 1k passengers ships. The largest Oceania ships carry just 1,200 passengers. The problem with the Signature and Pinnacle ships is that they are too large for a premium experience. Too many passengers per sailing. The problem with Carnival Corp itself is that it has too many brands. Princess competing with HAL and CCL. In fact, Princess is now larger than CCL in terms of revenues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cruise_lines Looks like Stein Kruse has decided to allow Princess to dominant the budget plus segment while HAL is relegated to the 'quiet' cruisers. Unfortunately, the 'retreat' is turning into a rout as HAL is not maintaining customer value for the $$$ customers. For example, pay-per-day Club Orange is negating the peaks enjoyed by $$$ passengers. I've already touched on all these points on the other thread. I'm glad that someone is finally thinking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sail7seas Posted November 17, 2019 #117 Share Posted November 17, 2019 On 11/10/2019 at 12:38 PM, Copper10-8 said: Stein Kruse remains the head of the Holland America Group (HAL, Seabourn, Princess and P&O Australia), S7S - no changes Thanks, Copper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sail7seas Posted November 18, 2019 #118 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I freely admit I have no idea how to run a cruise line and have no intention of presuming to tell a very historied cruise c ompany what they should do and how to manage the ships All I wish to do in this regard is call upon my very extensive cruise experience to note things I miss on the ships and perhaps suggest in threads of this sort things many of us would welcome either returned to our cruise experience or to introduce on the ships. To call what they pass to us to think of as CD 's.....they are in no way close to anything most of us think of a s succesful cruise directors. at Most, IMO, they fit the description of MC.at some shows and read the daily program on speaker system. No more 'fun games', no more 'cruise staff' what is a Carribbean cruise without cruise CD and staff? .. It is lacking vital amusements and entertainments. FUN As a cruiser, I have always been described as a 'self-entertainer' and that is accurate but even I notice the quiet lack of any organized typical warm weather cruise fun on HAL ships, these days Without the proper cruse staff HAL cannot make it 'better' It seems possible the team in Settle has not noticed how badly they have let the fun factor fall. . sail.noordam@gmail.com 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkacruiser Posted November 19, 2019 #119 Share Posted November 19, 2019 7 hours ago, sail7seas said: Without the proper cruse staff HAL cannot make it 'better' It seems possible the team in Settle has not noticed how badly they have let the fun factor fall. The reduction of cruise staff members that actively interacted with guests has been a noticeable reduction in my guest experience. New employment positions in the Entertainment Department seem to have been created instead. Event coordinator, as an example. If a Cruise Director had sufficient staff to handle the required guest oriented activities, such "events" now handled by whomever holds that position could be properly arranged by a Cruise Director. They were in the past. My positive memories of cruises in the past include the active participation in my cruise experience by Cruise Directors such as Susan Wood, Gene Young, the CD on the maiden Volendam's Asia Pacific Cruise in 2002 whose name escapes me at this moment as well as others including those cruises that were on Rotterdam V. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientWanderer Posted November 19, 2019 #120 Share Posted November 19, 2019 7 hours ago, sail7seas said: I freely admit I have no idea how to run a cruise line and have no intention of presuming to tell a very historied cruise c ompany what they should do and how to manage the ships All I wish to do in this regard is call upon my very extensive cruise experience to note things I miss on the ships and perhaps suggest in threads of this sort things many of us would welcome either returned to our cruise experience or to introduce on the ships. To call what they pass to us to think of as CD 's.....they are in no way close to anything most of us think of a s succesful cruise directors. at Most, IMO, they fit the description of MC.at some shows and read the daily program on speaker system. No more 'fun games', no more 'cruise staff' what is a Carribbean cruise without cruise CD and staff? .. It is lacking vital amusements and entertainments. FUN As a cruiser, I have always been described as a 'self-entertainer' and that is accurate but even I notice the quiet lack of any organized typical warm weather cruise fun on HAL ships, these days Without the proper cruse staff HAL cannot make it 'better' It seems possible the team in Settle has not noticed how badly they have let the fun factor fall. Great post. I highlighted the last part, as it really resonates with me. Both DH and I are kind of book worms who just chill out and amuse ourselves, but the background "noise" of other more extraverted people enjoying themselves is a happy sound that makes a cruise celebratory. And I'm not talking about a Carnival Cruise kind of thing here -- just pleasant activities going on around us. Our recent Mexico cruise was just plain "flat." On a cruise like that, which is a repeat to many cruisers, who are onboard for the cruise itself, rather than the ports, it's just not worth spending the money for that flat experience. I'd rather do a staycation and eat at various nice restaurants for a week. I think HAL is really underestimating the need for cruise entertainment personnel. Anyone who enjoys cruising would know that they are essential personnel. They should have a cruise director and team on every ship to run entertainment activities. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkacruiser Posted November 19, 2019 #121 Share Posted November 19, 2019 22 hours ago, rkacruiser said: the CD on the maiden Volendam's Asia Pacific Cruise in 2002 whose name escapes me at this moment It has taken 22 hours for this CD's name to "pop up" in my brain, but the CD was Gary Walker. The "Voice from the Bridge" announcements around Noon on sea days that included the participation of Mr. Walker with Captain Jonathan Peter Harris often were more humorous (while being very informative as well) than some of the comedians hired to be "entertaining". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iancal Posted November 19, 2019 #122 Share Posted November 19, 2019 I hear that the Bingo can get very exciting at times. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkacruiser Posted November 20, 2019 #123 Share Posted November 20, 2019 2 hours ago, iancal said: I hear that the Bingo can get very exciting at times. But, I would have to "pay" for such excitement in order to participate. Why would I choose to so so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare kazu Posted November 20, 2019 #124 Share Posted November 20, 2019 2 hours ago, iancal said: I hear that the Bingo can get very exciting at times. I know you have full sarcasm meant, but yes, if you have some bingo buddies, it can be fun and quite exciting when someone next to you wins the cruise. I am happy to win the minor prizes 😉 Hey, it’s the only time I play. Quite civilized with a Caesar or a glass of wine 😉 24 minutes ago, rkacruiser said: But, I would have to "pay" for such excitement in order to participate. Why would I choose to so so? I hear you. We all choose where to spend our money 😉 For me, it’s fun and it’s the only place on the ship where I am lucky 😉 I hope I didn’t just jinx myself 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare *Miss G* Posted November 20, 2019 #125 Share Posted November 20, 2019 1 hour ago, kazu said: Quite civilized with a Caesar Wait a minute. They have Caesars? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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