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Interesting Development Re Service Dogs


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57 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

Because it is unassailable.  No one is going to risk a $3,000 cruise on the chance that they get to the port only to be told that they aren't going to be allowed to board.  The risk/reward is far, far too great.  This isn't an "Oops.  Didn't work this time.  I hope I have better luck next time" situation.   People showing up with dogs either have the proper paperwork that will allow the dog to board, or have very convincing fakes which will allow the dog to board.  Either way, there is nothing that Princess can do about it.  The law does not allow them to do the type of cross-examination that would deny boarding to the dogs that you find to be so offensive and disruptive.  So get over it.

The laws are changing and airlines for one are making it much more difficult for people to bring ESA's on planes since the Delta incidence by requiring much more current and certifiable proof of need.

 

However, sites like this are still the go to place to get your pet "certified" to travel with you.

https://www.certapet.com/get-started/?utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=corekeywords&utm_content=realesaletter&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1PTd65bt5QIV1Bx9Ch3Y6Q-1EAMYAiAAEgKhx_D_BwE

636114373777107394-ThinkstockPhotos-494837237.jpg

Edited by PrincessLuver
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51 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

Because it is unassailable.  No one is going to risk a $3,000 cruise on the chance that they get to the port only to be told that they aren't going to be allowed to board.  The risk/reward is far, far too great.  This isn't an "Oops.  Didn't work this time.  I hope I have better luck next time" situation.   People showing up with dogs either have the proper paperwork that will allow the dog to board, or have very convincing fakes which will allow the dog to board.  Either way, there is nothing that Princess can do about it.  The law does not allow them to do the type of cross-examination that would deny boarding to the dogs that you find to be so offensive and disruptive.  So get over it.

Yup.  Princess is specifically barred by current law from asking relevant questions.

 

That does not mean passengers are forbidden from politely expressing their opinions to Fluffy's owner -- but be very careful in analyzing the behavior of what looks like a Fluffy first -- nor are they forbidden to seek changes to that abuse-inviting law.

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1 hour ago, JimmyVWine said:

The law does not allow them to do the type of cross-examination that would deny boarding to the dogs that you find to be so offensive and disruptive.  So get over it.

 

In my experience, I find being bitten by a passenger's dog whilst on board a cruise ship to be very offensive and disruptive.

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My best friend has a tiny service dog who can tell when she is about to have a diabetic seizure and get her life saving meds out if her purse. At the house she has a button to push. out and about she goes and finds someone to alert to the problem. Stark has been carefully trained to recognize uniforms and really those are the only people she responds positively too. She is always on alert. Stark is very much not a dog for petting and snuggling. She hates it when people come near her.  She is a tiny little pomsky and people are constantly running over saying how adorable she is which keeps her from doing her job.  My point is, my BFF doesnt look disabled. Stark doesnt look like a typical service dog. Stark is very standoffish and not at all friendly. My BFF has to be very assertive when she asks people not to touch her dog. It is far more complex then it seems and you really have no way of knowing what is actually going on with the person or the dog. You dont have to know. You dont work for the cruise line and you are not an ADA lawyer. Its frankly none of your business why a person needs the dog. No one asks you about your medical conditions.

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On 11/12/2019 at 7:43 PM, TNTLAMB said:

It's not about bonafide service animals. It's about some lady who lied her poorly trained dog on to a cruise. This same lady was called on her dogs behavior by very elderly gentleman.  The lady either bat chit crazy, drunk  or both threatened to sic the dog on the 90 year old man. The OP who wasn't  there wanted know if she should send screen shots of the event to the cruise line assuming the cruise staff and several hundred cruisers who there (it was the captains circle party) had no clue what happened. Other versions said the dog was also drunk having been served champagne. Apparently  service dogs and/or ESA s are not allowed to drink while on duty. BTW the law only applies to Bonafide Service animals who can go anywhere the owner can. I am as director of a very large international patient advocacy agency very  very familiar with the law as is coral. I must admit I do not know how much champagne an on duty dog can consume though it appears the owner should have cut him off as well as herself as clearly both are mean drunks.

To be very clear, I said there was a picture of the dog being served Champagne.  I did not say the dog was drunk.  I have no idea of the dog's state in that picture.  The owner thought it was cute that the dog had Champagne tastes.

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On 11/13/2019 at 9:10 AM, lolabarola said:

Yesterday, on board Coral the dog and owner were introduced on stage during the port of call talk for Cabo San Lucas, relevance for this being that he is a Mexican hairless dog breed Xolo? I think. He was introduced as a ‘service or support’ dog and received muted applause ; he is a beautiful chap and behaved perfectly. His owner said a few words about the breed and she too seemed a charming person. Maybe the way forward is for the ship to be licenced to carry a specific quota of service or support animals....

 

 

This is the animal and owner I posted about.  Her post is anything but lovely as was her behavior after the captain's circle party.  She recently acquired this dog from Russia. 

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4 hours ago, PrincessLuver said:

The laws are changing and airlines for one are making it much more difficult for people to bring ESA's on planes since the Delta incidence by requiring much more current and certifiable proof of need.

 

However, sites like this are still the go to place to get your pet "certified" to travel with you.

https://www.certapet.com/get-started/?utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=corekeywords&utm_content=realesaletter&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1PTd65bt5QIV1Bx9Ch3Y6Q-1EAMYAiAAEgKhx_D_BwE

636114373777107394-ThinkstockPhotos-494837237.jpg


I know that your post pertains to airlines. But for others who are getting things mixed up, let’s get the terminology straight. The site linked in the previous post provides paperwork for ESA certification. But...and it’s a big but...Princess does not allow ESAs. So the ease with which one can obtain ESA certification is irrelevant. The rules are clearly stated in earlier posts to this thread. To get on board, the dog must either be a real service animal or a convincing fake service animal. But it cannot be a real or fake emotional support animal. 

Edited by JimmyVWine
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On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 6:01 PM, richstowe said:

Looking forward to your report .

I have seen 3 or 4 comfort dogs on board and another with a vest that was clearly not a trained service animal . I'm positive this is perhaps half of the pets that were actually on my cruises . So  your " one in a hundred thousand guests, if that " is severely under estimating the problem . Rover's owners are self-indulgent narcissists who may actually feel they need to bring their special soul-mate . They are still wrong to do so 🙄

I have seen three on one cruise, and at least one of them were absolutely not a service animal. Interesting enough there was a blind man on the cruise with no animal, just his cane.

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12 hours ago, nattie said:

And I am sure the dogs in question have proper paperwork, which is not hard to obtain online. 

image.png.529b2821baf01691005e553993875394.png

Your link is for ESA letters yet the Princess site clearly states:

20191115_195609.thumb.jpg.378173880c9544aa2893102cbb0cda1d.jpg

 

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4 hours ago, Peckishpixie said:

You dont have to know. You dont work for the cruise line and you are not an ADA lawyer. Its frankly none of your business why a person needs the dog. No one asks you about your medical conditions.

Ask Mr Marlin Jackson his opinion on that.  He's the Delta passenger who needed 28 stitches after a "emotional support animal" mauled his face.

 

You're friend is welcome to privacy on their medical needs.  But everyone around her needs to know whether her animal only "should have good social skills" or is trained to "service animal" standards.

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17 minutes ago, Haboob said:

Ask Mr Marlin Jackson his opinion on that.  He's the Delta passenger who needed 28 stitches after a "emotional support animal" mauled his face.

 

You're friend is welcome to privacy on their medical needs.  But everyone around her needs to know whether her animal only "should have good social skills" or is trained to "service animal" standards.

 

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47 minutes ago, Haboob said:

Ask Mr Marlin Jackson his opinion on that.  He's the Delta passenger who needed 28 stitches after a "emotional support animal" mauled his face.

 

You're friend is welcome to privacy on their medical needs.  But everyone around her needs to know whether her animal only "should have good social skills" or is trained to "service animal" standards.

 

28 minutes ago, Ombud said:

[merely highlighted " 'emotional support animal' "]

The defect in the ADA is that a person is entitled to train their own animal and Princess is specifically barred from asking about the nature and level of that training.  ESA registry sites entice owners to make the claim that legally makes their animals "service animals", but without any assurance to their fellow passengers that the animal has the training or temperament to actually be safe among the crowds or narrow corridors as are found on a cruise ship.

 

The ADA imposes no such legal restraints on fellow passengers (especially on a Bermudian-flagged vessel in international waters).

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5 hours ago, Haboob said:

Ask Mr Marlin Jackson his opinion on that.  He's the Delta passenger who needed 28 stitches after a "emotional support animal" mauled his face.

 

You're friend is welcome to privacy on their medical needs.  But everyone around her needs to know whether her animal only "should have good social skills" or is trained to "service animal" standards.

Yes that poor man!

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On 11/12/2019 at 12:16 AM, CZEE said:

According to her post, she escalated the confrontation and the dog got involved. She then threatened to turn her dog loose on anyone at any time (present or future cruises) who dared question her right to have a dog on the ship

 

 

I notice that all the replies are about the dog, etc.

 

WHat about the woman making a threat?

 

If I stood up in the dining room and threatened to stab anyone who came near me with my

steak knife, I might well expect to be put off the ship.

 

Why was it ok to threaten people with her dog?

 

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I’ve been on P and O a few times and never seen a dog so decided to look at their policy. Sorry, I’m not tech savvy enough to post a link but for anyone who’s interested, call up their website and search for dogs. It’s not easy to travel with a dog from the UK!

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35 minutes ago, Louby-Lou said:

I’ve been on P and O a few times and never seen a dog so decided to look at their policy. Sorry, I’m not tech savvy enough to post a link but for anyone who’s interested, call up their website and search for dogs. It’s not easy to travel with a dog from the UK!

https://www.pocruises.com/accessibility1/life-onboard/assistance-dogs 

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The policy on Princess is really very simple.  True service dogs are allowed as required under the law. Princess really does not have any choice here. If a real service dog they must allow the person to bring the dog. Really very little to talk about here.

 

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52 minutes ago, Expat Cruise said:

The policy on Princess is really very simple.  True service dogs are allowed as required under the law. Princess really does not have any choice here. If a real service dog they must allow the person to bring the dog. Really very little to talk about here.

 

I guess there is something to talk about because of posts like yours . Yes , true service dogs are allowed as required under the law.  Very few would dispute this . The problem is people bringing on dogs that are NOT legit service dogs . Get it ? 

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A quick observation and a question:

 

Once the PAX threatened to sic the dog on others, the dog became a weapon.  The passenger and the dog (weapon) should have been put off the ship immediately.

 

DW and many other people are fearful of dogs.  Being around a dog is an anxiety producing situation for her and many others.  Where is her safe space?  At what point in time does having an anxiety reducing pet along trumps the emotional health of others?

 

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15 hours ago, Peckishpixie said:

My best friend has a tiny service dog who can tell when she is about to have a diabetic seizure and get her life saving meds out if her purse. At the house she has a button to push. out and about she goes and finds someone to alert to the problem. Stark has been carefully trained to recognize uniforms and really those are the only people she responds positively too. She is always on alert. Stark is very much not a dog for petting and snuggling. She hates it when people come near her.  She is a tiny little pomsky and people are constantly running over saying how adorable she is which keeps her from doing her job.  My point is, my BFF doesnt look disabled. Stark doesnt look like a typical service dog. Stark is very standoffish and not at all friendly. My BFF has to be very assertive when she asks people not to touch her dog. It is far more complex then it seems and you really have no way of knowing what is actually going on with the person or the dog. You dont have to know. You dont work for the cruise line and you are not an ADA lawyer. Its frankly none of your business why a person needs the dog. No one asks you about your medical conditions.

 

 Actually diabetes is one of the conditions that the cruise ship needs to know about.  Any condition which might cause a seizure is.

 

Look, I get both sides of this argument. But the main legal point is "reasonable accommodation" not how someone feels on a subject whether for or against.  The SCOTUS has ruled that regardless of whether a cruise ship is US-flagged or not, while in a US port they must abide by the ADA in full.  Conversely they have also ruled that when not in a US port essentially all bets are off and they do what they have to.  

 

Point 2 is we know that certain countries have their own laws that the cruise line must obey while in port and often those laws are counter to the ADA and usually with good reason.  Island nations have often have very strict quarantine laws for both people and animals and any not prepackaged foods.

 

For the above two reasons a cruise line is going to seem like they don't have hard and fast rules.  Because of ports of call it is going to be more a itinerary by itinerary set of rules.  Add to this that the ADA only covers dogs … or sometimes dogs and miniature horses.  And if you read the ADA laws in their entirety … and they fill a notebook … you'll find that even the ADA isn't quite as cut and dry as most people think of it.

 

Add into that there are countries with animal diseases that are endemic that you would not want to take your animal, certainly not a service animal that is highly trained and highly valuable any more than you would want to walk down the street with a diamond necklace hanging out for the world to see.

 

And as yet another layer of conflicting confusion, understand that animal abuse is now a federal crime here in the US.  People are going to start using that as a way of dealing with certain behaviors … feeding the bubbly to an animal that it has the potential to poison could be one of those instances.  I know for a fact that some industries are seeing if the new designation can be used to greatly narrow when and how the ADA laws are imposed and give them more leeway to impose restrictions of what a service animal and/or ESD can be asked to prove.  I've also spoken with lawyers that are working on a way to get the certification for service animals to be a federal license and that if you don't have the federal license then you aren't covered by the ADA and will be disallowed from traveling with an animal … and just like any federal license it will have to be renewed frequently.

 

This is what all of the people pushing the untrained and/or ill-behaved animals have done.  They are making it more difficult for those with legitimate needs.

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42 minutes ago, mamkmm2 said:

 

 Actually diabetes is one of the conditions that the cruise ship needs to know about.  Any condition which might cause a seizure is.

 

Look, I get both sides of this argument. But the main legal point is "reasonable accommodation" not how someone feels on a subject whether for or against.  The SCOTUS has ruled that regardless of whether a cruise ship is US-flagged or not, while in a US port they must abide by the ADA in full.  Conversely they have also ruled that when not in a US port essentially all bets are off and they do what they have to.  

 

Point 2 is we know that certain countries have their own laws that the cruise line must obey while in port and often those laws are counter to the ADA and usually with good reason.  Island nations have often have very strict quarantine laws for both people and animals and any not prepackaged foods.

 

For the above two reasons a cruise line is going to seem like they don't have hard and fast rules.  Because of ports of call it is going to be more a itinerary by itinerary set of rules.  Add to this that the ADA only covers dogs … or sometimes dogs and miniature horses.  And if you read the ADA laws in their entirety … and they fill a notebook … you'll find that even the ADA isn't quite as cut and dry as most people think of it.

 

Add into that there are countries with animal diseases that are endemic that you would not want to take your animal, certainly not a service animal that is highly trained and highly valuable any more than you would want to walk down the street with a diamond necklace hanging out for the world to see.

 

And as yet another layer of conflicting confusion, understand that animal abuse is now a federal crime here in the US.  People are going to start using that as a way of dealing with certain behaviors … feeding the bubbly to an animal that it has the potential to poison could be one of those instances.  I know for a fact that some industries are seeing if the new designation can be used to greatly narrow when and how the ADA laws are imposed and give them more leeway to impose restrictions of what a service animal and/or ESD can be asked to prove.  I've also spoken with lawyers that are working on a way to get the certification for service animals to be a federal license and that if you don't have the federal license then you aren't covered by the ADA and will be disallowed from traveling with an animal … and just like any federal license it will have to be renewed frequently.

 

This is what all of the people pushing the untrained and/or ill-behaved animals have done.  They are making it more difficult for those with legitimate needs.

It is a darn shame, a well trained service dog is welcome to share my space anywhere any time I would be happy to make a space on a crowed airplane. Fluffy who is not trained is not! I don't want to get bitten!

 

 

 

Edited by Reader0108598
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2 hours ago, richstowe said:

I guess there is something to talk about because of posts like yours . Yes , true service dogs are allowed as required under the law.  Very few would dispute this . The problem is people bringing on dogs that are NOT legit service dogs . Get it ? 

 

Close but no cigar.  The problem is people bringing on animals which are legally service animals (a simple claim "I trained my dog to do 'x' to assist me with my disability 'y' " makes them so under the ADA) but without the training and temperament associated with what the rest of us would call a legit service dog.  When a cruise offers accommodations (staterooms) while in US waters, the ADA bars Princess from asking any questions about the nature, extent, or effectiveness of that training.  Not so fellow passengers.

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About two years ago, I was on a flight with two service dogs in training.  The dogs wore vests as did the trainers.  They were in the first row of business class, which admittedly might not be the case for all traveling service dogs.  They remained on the floor for the entire four hour flight, they never barked, whimpered or moved perceptively.  One passenger asked if he could pet the dogs and the trainers vey politely explained that the dogs were working and that part of their job was to respond to the trainer only.  I would travel with a trained service dog any time. The focus should ALWAYS be on the word 'trained'!

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18 hours ago, Haboob said:

 

The defect in the ADA is that a person is entitled to train their own animal and Princess is specifically barred from asking about the nature and level of that training....  

 

...The ADA imposes no such legal restraints on fellow passengers (especially on a Bermudian-flagged vessel in international waters).

I don't see it as a defect at all; allowing handlers to owner-train their service dogs is important.  Not every program out there that trains service dogs is going to be able to 'special order' the service dog that every disabled handler needs.  Also, program dogs can cost $1,000s, and often times there is a long wait list.  Sure, not every handler is versed in the various aspects of socialization, generalization, obedience work, and task training, but many are.  

 

So, are you suggesting that fellow passengers become vigilante service dog police?  That's no more fair that if I were to harass every person in a wheel chair and suggest that they COULD stand if they really wanted to.  If you spot a service dog that is acting aggressively, by all means, report it to the appropriate authorities.  If a service dog is pawing, whining, jumping on, or pulling the leash of a handler, assume it is alerting to an upcoming episode.  Their ability to communicate with us (especially when we humans aren't always the brightest bulbs!) is very limited, and some alerts can look like naughty behavior.  Please try to keep this in mind before you run up to someone with a service dog and start pestering them about their need for the dog.  That kind of confrontation can send some folks straight into an episode!

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