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Emotional support animals


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38 minutes ago, lenquixote66 said:

I understand what you are saying.I am saying that I never heard of miniature horses being service animals.

I am a member of Friends Of Animals and I know that dogs are support animals.

Are you saying it can't be true, or are you saying, "Huh, you learn something new every day"?

 

If it's the former, here's one link:

https://blog.mass.gov/mod/service-animals/miniature-horses-as-service-animals-under-the-americans-with-disabilities-act-ada/

 

Also here:

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

 

 

Edited by Underwatr
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3 hours ago, Underwatr said:

Are you saying it can't be true, or are you saying, "Huh, you learn something new every day"?

 

If it's the former, here's one link:

https://blog.mass.gov/mod/service-animals/miniature-horses-as-service-animals-under-the-americans-with-disabilities-act-ada/

 

Also here:

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Underwatr said:

Are you saying it can't be true, or are you saying, "Huh, you learn something new every day"?

 

If it's the former, here's one link:

https://blog.mass.gov/mod/service-animals/miniature-horses-as-service-animals-under-the-americans-with-disabilities-act-ada/

 

Also here:

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

 

 

I assume we all learn something new every day.My father was born in 1895 and lived to 1981.Imagine all the things that he experienced.I am always learning new things which give me a greater appreciation of life.

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17 hours ago, NLH Arizona said:

Actually PTSD is an ADA covered disability.

 

Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.

 

We agree on this as I said a Service Dog has to perform a specific task which may include a doing that task for someone with PTSD but just having a dog for  PTSD does not necessarily mean its a service dog.  

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14 hours ago, Tom47 said:

I am the OP.  I have no problem with service animals, including miniature horses, which I have never seen.  I don't approve of people who abuse ESA provisions.  People who bring Fifi  into the MDR and let Fifi eat off their plate disgust me.

 

Thats the whole point as to why airlines and cruise lines are taking action against little FIFI.   Every time there is one of these threads people just can't understand there is a big difference legally between ESA and Service Animals.   ESA's are not covered by the ADA.   

Edited by dkjretired
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1 hour ago, dkjretired said:

 

Thats the whole point as to why airlines and cruise lines are taking action against little FIFI.   Every time there is one of these threads people just can't understand there is a big difference legally between ESA and Service Animals.   ESA's are not covered by the ADA.   

Nor are Therapy dogs covered by the ADA.

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37 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

It is a quote from Hamlet.  I figured such a well-educated guy would get the reference.  Sorry.

I knew that,I was just kidding.A cousin of mine wrote a play titled A Prelude To Hamlet which made it to NYC Off Broadway.

I love Shakespeares writings.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Unfortunately some self entitled people ruin it for the ones in real need. I was at Disney Springs earlier today. There was a family there with a small dog with a “service dog” harness that they most likely purchased online  No way was that dog trained for anything but running in circles and begging for food. A real service dog would stick close to it’s human at all times to be alert for problems or to lend a paw. Shame on the cheaters that use fraudulent badges just to take their pet along.

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2 minutes ago, Luxana said:

I was informed by my travel agent that Celebrity Cruises does not allow emotional support animals.  Is there any cruise line that permits ESA?

I do not believe so.  While some people might have (or at least believe that they have) a genuine need for such support, the fact is that any permissiveness along those lines is sure to lead to abuse — which can be seen as causing more distress to other passengers than it brings comfort to those claiming to need such emotional support.

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I don't think the ESAs should be allowed on any airline, cruise or rail system.  Cannot tell fake from real.  My neighbor got a certificate online so she can take her dog on airlines.  Yet it is NOT a ESA in reality.  Because a piece of paper gotten online sys it is she talks on airlines.

 

  

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It could be argued that all dogs are emotional support animals.  Just ask their owners.  The problem with allowing those who want to take their pet everywhere is that there is no way to draw a line.  And after a number of dog bites on planes and elsewhere there is a new trend to simply say "NO" to those who want to bring along pets.

 

Hank

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On 1/23/2020 at 12:37 AM, voyager70 said:

Old news.  Problem is the cruise lines don't have the chutzpah to enforce the rules.

 

The real problem is that the cruise lines and airlines do not have the legal right to question the rules.

The US ADA has very strict and costly penalties for any carrier who has the audacity to even question why an American passenger needs to have a support animal. At the same time, there are very few rules or regulations for the owners of the animals. The international carriers do not want to face the stiff fines and negative publicity earned by questioning an American's comfort animal.

The cruise line I work for has very strict rules about even the Captain asking why someone has a comfort peacock or mini horse onboard his ship. 

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23 minutes ago, Donald said:

The real problem is that the cruise lines and airlines do not have the legal right to question the rules.

The US ADA has very strict and costly penalties for any carrier who has the audacity to even question why an American passenger needs to have a support animal. At the same time, there are very few rules or regulations for the owners of the animals. The international carriers do not want to face the stiff fines and negative publicity earned by questioning an American's comfort animal.

The cruise line I work for has very strict rules about even the Captain asking why someone has a comfort peacock or mini horse onboard his ship. 

What line is that?  I would not be really comfortable about sailing on a ship which so limited its captains discretion.

 

Back on topic: cruise lines may lack the “legal right to question the rules”, but they surely do have the right to enforce the rules — including those which address absurdities like bringing livestock on board just because a passenger feels like doing so. 

 

There  is a great difference between what are known as “support” animals and what people call “comfort” animals;  and your apparent use of the terms interchangeably undermines any credibility in your post.

Edited by navybankerteacher
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51 minutes ago, Donald said:

The real problem is that the cruise lines and airlines do not have the legal right to question the rules.

The US ADA has very strict and costly penalties for any carrier who has the audacity to even question why an American passenger needs to have a support animal. At the same time, there are very few rules or regulations for the owners of the animals. The international carriers do not want to face the stiff fines and negative publicity earned by questioning an American's comfort animal.

The cruise line I work for has very strict rules about even the Captain asking why someone has a comfort peacock or mini horse onboard his ship. 

I'm not sure what you mean when you say support animal.  If you are speaking of a Service Animal, they are covered by the ADA and a company can ask two questions:  (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?  Those rules/questions do not apply to emotional support animals, as they are not covered by the ADA.

 

As far as rules for the Service Animals:  Under the ADA, all service dogs must be leashed, harnessed, or tethered. If, however, these devices interfere with the dog’s work or the handler’s disability makes it impossible to use them, the dog may be kept under control through voice, signal, or other controls.  If a service dog is not under control and the handler fails to act to gain to control, a business owner or staff member is permitted to ask that the animal be removed from the premises. A handler may also be asked to remove a service dog that is not housebroken, is behaving aggressively, or is otherwise posing a threat to human health and safety. If the dog must be removed for a legitimate reason, the establishment must permit the handler to obtain the services or goods they need without the animal’s presence. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, NLH Arizona said:

I'm not sure what you mean when you say support animal.  If you are speaking of a Service Animal, they are covered by the ADA and a company can ask two questions:  (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?  Those rules/questions do not apply to emotional support animals, as they are not covered by the ADA.

 

As far as rules for the Service Animals:  Under the ADA, all service dogs must be leashed, harnessed, or tethered. If, however, these devices interfere with the dog’s work or the handler’s disability makes it impossible to use them, the dog may be kept under control through voice, signal, or other controls.  If a service dog is not under control and the handler fails to act to gain to control, a business owner or staff member is permitted to ask that the animal be removed from the premises. A handler may also be asked to remove a service dog that is not housebroken, is behaving aggressively, or is otherwise posing a threat to human health and safety. If the dog must be removed for a legitimate reason, the establishment must permit the handler to obtain the services or goods they need without the animal’s presence. 

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely correct, saved me a lot of typing.   Also to Donald, a Peacock cannot be a service animal.   According to the US Justice Dept interpretation of the ADA which is binding, only dogs and in some cases miniature horse can be Service Animals.   The problem with the ADA lies in those regulartions that Phoenix Dream mentioned.   They are good in one sense but they can also create fakes. .   Anyone can take FIFI and tell the cruise line they are a service animal and other than those two questions, there's not much the cruise line can do about it except watch FIFI's actions on board.   

 

ESA animals are not under ADA rules and are a separate thing completely.   Royal Caribbean which covers Celebrity has stated they will no longer allow ESA's.   Those who are already booked will be grandfathered in. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Donald said:

The real problem is that the cruise lines and airlines do not have the legal right to question the rules.

The US ADA has very strict and costly penalties for any carrier who has the audacity to even question why an American passenger needs to have a support animal. At the same time, there are very few rules or regulations for the owners of the animals. The international carriers do not want to face the stiff fines and negative publicity earned by questioning an American's comfort animal.

The cruise line I work for has very strict rules about even the Captain asking why someone has a comfort peacock or mini horse onboard his ship. 

And this is the problem, not with the law, but with companies not knowing what their rights are, or what the legal limitations are.  As others have noted, and you seem to misunderstand, only dogs and miniature horses can be "service animals", anything else is an "emotional support animal", and therefore can be denied on a cruise ship.  The stories about peacocks and pigs, comes from the fact that there are two laws regarding accessibility for service or support animals, the ADA (which covers cruise ships, among everywhere else) and the ACAA (air carrier accessibility act) which covers airlines, and does allow emotional support animals, which up until recently could be any animal, but is now restricted.

 

While you are correct that the cruise line, and any of its employees can only ask two questions regarding an animal:  "is this animal required due to a disability" and "what task does the animal perform in relation to this disability", the SCOTUS, in its ruling in Spector v. NCL, that "certain aspects of the ADA do not apply to foreign flag cruise ships if those aspects interfere with the ship's "internal policies and procedures"".  Further, the DOJ has a set of "good behavior" guidelines that service animals must adhere to (no barking, except as an alert signal, no sniffing others, fully housebroken, no eating from the table, etc), and business owners are entirely legally entitled to ask the animal and owner to leave the premises if those behaviors are not followed.  Further, if the animal interferes with the basic business of the business, then service animals may be excluded, and even some areas of the ship could be "off limits" (DOJ's example is one dormitory at a college that would be animal free for those with allergies) provided that it does not limit an activity to the owner of the animal (i.e. there are other dorms available).

 

"Comfort animals" have no protection under US law.  "Emotional Support Animals" are protected under the above mentioned ACAA, and the Fair Housing Act, and that's it.  ESA's are not supposed to be allowed in other businesses, unless those businesses allow it.

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1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

And this is the problem, not with the law, but with companies not knowing what their rights are, or what the legal limitations are.  As others have noted, and you seem to misunderstand, only dogs and miniature horses can be "service animals", anything else is an "emotional support animal", and therefore can be denied on a cruise ship.  The stories about peacocks and pigs, comes from the fact that there are two laws regarding accessibility for service or support animals, the ADA (which covers cruise ships, among everywhere else) and the ACAA (air carrier accessibility act) which covers airlines, and does allow emotional support animals, which up until recently could be any animal, but is now restricted.

 

While you are correct that the cruise line, and any of its employees can only ask two questions regarding an animal:  "is this animal required due to a disability" and "what task does the animal perform in relation to this disability", the SCOTUS, in its ruling in Spector v. NCL, that "certain aspects of the ADA do not apply to foreign flag cruise ships if those aspects interfere with the ship's "internal policies and procedures"".  Further, the DOJ has a set of "good behavior" guidelines that service animals must adhere to (no barking, except as an alert signal, no sniffing others, fully housebroken, no eating from the table, etc), and business owners are entirely legally entitled to ask the animal and owner to leave the premises if those behaviors are not followed.  Further, if the animal interferes with the basic business of the business, then service animals may be excluded, and even some areas of the ship could be "off limits" (DOJ's example is one dormitory at a college that would be animal free for those with allergies) provided that it does not limit an activity to the owner of the animal (i.e. there are other dorms available).

 

"Comfort animals" have no protection under US law.  "Emotional Support Animals" are protected under the above mentioned ACAA, and the Fair Housing Act, and that's it.  ESA's are not supposed to be allowed in other businesses, unless those businesses allow it.

Knowing what the law actually covers is challenging enough - but the challenges go far further than that.

 

A cruise line denies boarding to an American couple who have saved all their lives to go on a cruise - and decide to take their "comfort / support / service / pet mini-pig" with them. The cruise line says "No".

The next day this completely devastated couple is on CNN and Foxnews, sobbing about losing their cruise of a lifetime because the evil cruise line was cruel to them and their pet pig.

Cruise Line PR people are very adverse to negative images like this one.

So are Cruise Line Presidents.

Cruise Line employees who would like to keep their jobs will go to great lengths to avoid getting caught between Cruise Line Executives and the cruising public.

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