HAL's Poor Response to Corona Virus

[Mary229]

I think with the reports coming from the Princess ship there will be a change of direction from executive management.  That sounds like a class action lawsuit in the making.   

[thaires23a]

I agree

[3rdGenCunarder]

40 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I think with the reports coming from the Princess ship there will be a change of direction from executive management.  That sounds like a class action lawsuit in the making.   

 

I don't see who people could sue. The virus isn't the fault of the cruise lines. They've all been scrambling trying to salvage the cruises. They made arrangements with ports that were considered safe at the time of the change and were willing to take ships. We don't know if the ports said "unless someone on the ship gets sick."

 

This situation changes constantly, and despite efforts to contain it, the virus is getting around the world. The quarantine in Japan started after the Princess cruise started. After the Westerdam cruise started, too. In hindsight, the cruise lines probably should have cancelled all cruises. But at the time they had to make the decision, that would have seemed an alarmist response. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. 

 

[ted144]

Even with the facts known days before the February 1 sailing from Hong Kong, it was apparent there were risks in that part of the world. Carnival/HAL management put their collective heads in the sand and chose a path that they thought preserved cash flow. 
 

It was heavy-handed to say the least that all was good, just take your cruise to new ports because we can change and there’s nothing you can do. At a minimum they should have offered refunds for those who didn’t want to go.
 

So what happens now if the Westerdam passengers cannot disembark in Tokyo- which seems to be the case? Find a new port?  Keep the passengers in quarantine as is the case with the Princess ship?

[Level six]

I agree with above.  HAL knew the risks before FEB 1 because I knew the risks and cancelled my cruise.  They were greedy and didn't let anyone decide for themselves what to do.  It was either go on the cruise or lose your money.  They should have let those who wanted to cruise, who knew what the risk was, go on the cruise.  But, those who did not want to go on the cruise get a full refund.

 

Before FEB 1 the CDC issued "No essential travel".  Then the WHO issued a worldwide emergency.  These were the medical experts. 

 

What was HAL thinking......how not to lose money.  Well that backfired because they will lose 100X the amount now.  Especially with all the lawsuits that will follow this.  Big mistake HAL.    

[Viv0828]

23 minutes ago, Level six said:

What was HAL thinking......how not to lose money.  Well that backfired because they will lose 100X the amount now.  Especially with all the lawsuits that will follow this.  Big mistake HAL.    

 

i so agree. HAL did not have the welfare of passengers or crew at the top of the list. another cruise line - i think it was seabourn - didn't land in hong kong as they were originally scheduled - and chose another port (can't remember what it was) to disembark and embark passengers so they are not involved in this hong kong thing. i think HAL knew that landing in hong kong could have far reaching consequences - but didn't want to pay everyone's airline change fares or rebooking fees. penny wise and pound foolish.

and for those of you that feel sorry for HAL - i don't. i feel really sorry for all those folks on the diamond princess quarantined in their rooms.

[kw@sea]

Statement from HAL this morning: https://www.hollandamerica.com/blog/ships/ms-westerdam/statement-regarding-westerdam-in-japan/?linkId=81877894

[eurolady]

What about the Feb. 29 sailing?  Who in their right mind would want to be on this ship and where in the world will they be allowed to go?  HAL needs to take the Westerdam for a time out, scrub it from stem to stern and redeploy it to a safer venue.

 

[S1drfl]

20 hours ago, HAL Sailer said:

 

(BOLD mine) And it's more than not being able to land.  On the Diamond Princess thread it has been confirmed that passengers are confined to their cabins. Verandah passengers can go out on their balcony but OV cabins can only look out their windows and INSIDE passengers can only see the sky, sun by watching televised bow/stern camera.

It has also been confirmed, at least here on the Princess boards, that inside passengers are allowed out on deck 1.5 hrs. per day, with masks and instructions to remain at a distance from one another.

[3rdGenCunarder]

My Caribbean cruise departs FLL on Feb 15. I just got the standard warning--denied boarding if traveled in China, medical evaluation if obviously ill, the same message that has been posted here before. They must really mean it. The email arrived THREE times.

 

[npcl]

Just now, fredfredfredfredfred said:

 

I apologize if this has already been answered somewhere else...but if you have traveled to China, do they offer you a refund/future cruise credit or do you just lose all your money (if you don't have cancellation insurance; which I don't)?

If you have proof of recent travel to or through China during the period stated then they will give you a full refund.

[Mary229]

3 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I don't see who people could sue. The virus isn't the fault of the cruise lines. They've all been scrambling trying to salvage the cruises. They made arrangements with ports that were considered safe at the time of the change and were willing to take ships. We don't know if the ports said "unless someone on the ship gets sick."

 

This situation changes constantly, and despite efforts to contain it, the virus is getting around the world. The quarantine in Japan started after the Princess cruise started. After the Westerdam cruise started, too. In hindsight, the cruise lines probably should have cancelled all cruises. But at the time they had to make the decision, that would have seemed an alarmist response. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. 

 

If the descriptions from social media are accurate, and that is always suspect, the conditions onboard are trying and could degrade.  I think there is enough there to get a lawsuit.  Outcome? who knows.  (I agree that there likely is a lot of hysteria and alarmism but this is about what is actually occurring regardless if it is right or wrong)

[3rdGenCunarder]

1 minute ago, fredfredfredfredfred said:

 

I apologize if this has already been answered somewhere else...but if you have traveled to China, do they offer you a refund/future cruise credit or do you just lose all your money (if you don't have cancellation insurance; which I don't)?

 

HAL will refund the cost of the cruise. "full refund of all amounts paid to Holland America Line for this voyage"

[gilboman]

5 hours ago, Mary229 said:

I think with the reports coming from the Princess ship there will be a change of direction from executive management.  That sounds like a class action lawsuit in the making.   

 

the ships aren't registered in the states and the sailing didn't even include US ports

 

I mean, cruiseships are quarantined quite frequently (not this long granted) due to noro and etc. or extended trips due to weather and other issues. what's there to sue for?

[Mary229]

3 minutes ago, gilboman said:

 

the ships aren't registered in the states and the sailing didn't even include US ports

 

I mean, cruiseships are quarantined quite frequently (not this long granted) due to noro and etc. or extended trips due to weather and other issues. what's there to sue for?

Conditions aboard the ship and the lock down.  The quarantine is passable but I wonder if the conditions being reported, if true, are.

 

People have sued for criminal activity such as rape.  I

Edited February 6, 2020 by Mary229

[cruisemom42]

3 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

Conditions aboard the ship and the lock down.  The quarantine is passable but I wonder if the conditions being reported, if true, are.

 

They are being served three meals per day, there is water and apparently some servicing of hot/cold drinks; passengers are allowed some time outside and access to internet/phone without charge.

 

The food doesn't look that bad:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7974721/Japan-blocks-foreigners-disembarking-cruise-ship.html?ico=pushly-notifcation-small

 

In the US they are considering quarantining air travelers on military bases.  Better?  Not sure.....

 

 

[gilboman]

10 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

Conditions aboard the ship and the lock down.  The quarantine is passable but I wonder if the conditions being reported, if true, are.

 

People have sued for criminal activity such as rape.  I

lock down and quarantined in the rooms at request of local government (Japan) ..so sue the gov't of japan? they're not as sue happy as the US

 

there is no criminal activity here, a government with jurisdiction because the ship was in its port requested the lockdown and quarantine

 

[gilboman]

3 hours ago, Viv0828 said:

 

i so agree. HAL did not have the welfare of passengers or crew at the top of the list. another cruise line - i think it was seabourn - didn't land in hong kong as they were originally scheduled - and chose another port (can't remember what it was) to disembark and embark passengers so they are not involved in this hong kong thing. i think HAL knew that landing in hong kong could have far reaching consequences - but didn't want to pay everyone's airline change fares or rebooking fees. penny wise and pound foolish.

and for those of you that feel sorry for HAL - i don't. i feel really sorry for all those folks on the diamond princess quarantined in their rooms.

well places like singapore had/have more cases than HKG and taiwan, japan etc all had similar number of cases as in HKG yet the ships be it HAL or others still ported there. Samething with North America and Europe

[Mary229]

3 minutes ago, gilboman said:

lock down and quarantined in the rooms at request of local government (Japan) ..so sue the gov't of japan? they're not as sue happy as the US

 

there is no criminal activity here, a government with jurisdiction because the ship was in its port requested the lockdown and quarantine

 

I didn't say there was criminal activity, I was just pointing out that you can sue a cruise line.  Others questioned whether you could sue.  Yes, you can sue.  My view is yes, they should, my opinion.  

Edited February 6, 2020 by Mary229

[kazu]

9 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

In the US they are considering quarantining air travelers on military bases.  Better?  Not sure

 

Our plane load of passengers coming back to Canada from China that have been ‘rescued’ will be quarantined at Trenton - an airforce (military base).  It sounds like they are well prepared for them and the people affected on the plane that have been interviewed are just grateful to get out and get home 😉 

[gilboman]

5 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I didn't say there was criminal activity, I was just pointing out that you can sue a cruise line.  Others questioned whether you could sue.  Yes, you can sue.  My view is yes, they should, my opinion.  

 

you can sue anything and anyone generally in the US. But this isn't in the US and US has no jurisdiction.  so who should they be suing? gov't of japan? where will the lawsuit be filed?

[npcl]

4 hours ago, ted144 said:

Even with the facts known days before the February 1 sailing from Hong Kong, it was apparent there were risks in that part of the world. Carnival/HAL management put their collective heads in the sand and chose a path that they thought preserved cash flow. 
 

It was heavy-handed to say the least that all was good, just take your cruise to new ports because we can change and there’s nothing you can do. At a minimum they should have offered refunds for those who didn’t want to go.
 

So what happens now if the Westerdam passengers cannot disembark in Tokyo- which seems to be the case? Find a new port?  Keep the passengers in quarantine as is the case with the Princess ship?

Actually they followed the lead of the health organizations.  At the time they started from Hong Kong there were no travel restrictions related to Hong Kong. Same with the Princess ship. 

 

Since the ship left initially new restrictions have been added.  Probably not the last.  I fully expect at least a 50/50 chance that Thailand and Singapore will be added in the next couple of weeks.  That is really the issue with international cruising right now.  The area you are leaving from and cruising in might be fine when you board the ship, but everything might have changed by the time you can get off.

 

Basically at this point I think the cruise lines should cancel any Asian cruises for the next 6 months and relocate the ships.  Of course 3 months from now we might be have the same issues with Australia, the U.S., the Caribbean and Europe.  The cruise industry is in a really damned if you do, damned if you don't situation right now.

 

Would not be surprised to see the majors idling some ships if this continues to spread. If they can find some place to keep them.

 

I do expect less impact from governments on out and back cruises compared to those that start at one place and end at another.

Edited February 6, 2020 by npcl

[Mary229]

18 minutes ago, gilboman said:

 

you can sue anything and anyone generally in the US. But this isn't in the US and US has no jurisdiction.  so who should they be suing? gov't of japan? where will the lawsuit be filed?

you bought the service in the US so you can sue in the US.   BTW, CCL is a US company. Just google "suing a cruise line"

Edited February 6, 2020 by Mary229

[AncientWanderer]

9 minutes ago, npcl said:

Actually they followed the lead of the health organizations.  At the time they started from Hong Kong there were no travel restrictions related to Hong Kong. Same with the Princess ship. 

 

Since the ship left initially new restrictions have been added.  Probably not the last.  I fully expect at least a 50/50 chance that Thailand and Singapore will be added in the next couple of weeks.  That is really the issue with international cruising right now.  The area you are leaving from and cruising in might be fine when you board the ship, but everything might have changed by the time you can get off.

 

Basically at this point I think the cruise lines should cancel any Asian cruises for the next 6 months and relocate the ships.  Of course 3 months from now we might be have the same issues in the Caribbean and Europe.  The cruise industry is in a really damned if you do, damned if you don't situation right now.

 

They did exactly do that...follow the lead of the health organizations.  I suppose it is up to the customer to decide whether they should have been a step ahead and a little more pro-active in the steps they took.

 

There are varying opinions here whether HAL's response was adequate, but I bet dollars to donuts that there will be some management shakeup over decisions that were made regarding Westerdam

[npcl]

1 minute ago, AncientWanderer said:

 

They did exactly do that...follow the lead of the health organizations.  I suppose it is up to the customer to decide whether they should have been a step ahead and a little more pro-active in the steps they took.

 

There are varying opinions here whether HAL's response was adequate, but I bet dollars to donuts that there will be some management shakeup over decisions that were made regarding Westerdam

I don't expect so.  The cruise lines choices now are either try an keep sailing where they can.  Maybe being a little more proactive on canceling and relocating ships.  Or start figuring out if they can pay their bills including loan costs on their ships without using bankruptcy protection. I expect that there is any more spread out of China that you might see new builds orders being canceled or delayed.

 

On the other hand if this does turn into a pandemic with the current numbers then things will go back to normal fairly quickly because no reason for a government to quarantine if the virus is already wide spread in their country.

 

In any case I expect a hard time for the cruise industry and some very very cheap fares next year.