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Ginnan2020
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5 hours ago, HalfHand said:

 

I have a question for you, or everyone who thinks as Omax4

 

Let's say every day you have your routine. Part of this routine is stopping to get coffee every morning. You really don't speak to anyone there, you just get your coffee and leave.

 

You go on your vacation and are exposed to Covid-19 and catch it. It is still incubating, you have no symptoms, you are contagious.

 

You return and infect the person you pay for your coffee. They bring it home to their immune compromised father, he subsequently dies.

 

Do you feel you have any responsibility?

 

If you would have put your community above yourself, he lives. This is the problem in a crisis like this, actions you take effect your community.


So because I was on vacation I’m irresponsible? If I hadn’t been on vacation and accidentally gotten the virus in the community at work and then infected the coffee worker that makes a big difference in your eyes I guess. I’m not sure how to answer that. I’m not sure we can tell every one in the whole world to stop traveling. If I had been traveling on a non-cruise for work would that have made a difference? 
Would it have made a difference if it was regular flu and the coffee worker elderly father died? Because more people still die of the regular influenza then coronavirus.

See where I’m going with this?

 

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30 minutes ago, Omax4 said:


So because I was on vacation I’m irresponsible?

 

If I hadn’t been on vacation and accidentally gotten the virus in the community at work and then infected the coffee worker that makes a big difference in your eyes I guess.

 

I’m not sure how to answer that. I’m not sure we can tell every one in the whole world to stop traveling. If I had been traveling on a non-cruise for work would that have made a difference? 


Would it have made a difference if it was regular flu and the coffee worker elderly father died? Because more people still die of the regular influenza then coronavirus.

 

See where I’m going with this?

 

In order.

 

At this point in the development of this pandemic, yes. We all need to be thinking more about keeping our communities healthy currently. Would you think it was irresponsible to go to Wuhan? then just continue about your normal life. I believe to most everyone that is a no brainer. There are a large group of individuals, those 60+ that this virus is considered to be sever to.

 

Yes. You would be the clerk then. Doing everything to remain in good health, but being infected because someone else made a bad decision. This cruise, or flight, or basketball game should be considered an event that should be avoided. Gatherings of a lot of people.

 

It depends upon your job obviously. But assuming you are like me and neither of our jobs are "system critical", then your company would hold some responsibility. I'd like to think you told your boss with the world situation currently you don't think it is a good idea, but I'm not expecting anyone to get fired over it. I will point out that a lot of companies have banned or severely restricted travel though. Microsoft told all their Seattle folks to work from home. Community responsibility.

 

Yes, the clerk knows their home situation and would have gotten a flu shot, so would have her father. You should have gotten one too, but that's just me, why risk being sick when it takes 5 minutes in CVS.

 

Right now, there is no reason NOT to cancel a cruise. You get FCC from all lines I believe (haven't read Carnivals), but there are all kinds of reasons to cancel. If we all don't work together to slow this down, we are all in big trouble.

 

And now, I disclaimer. I'm not bashing the cruise industry. This is a cruise message board so the discussion is going to be about cruising. If I came on here and stated talking about how all the college and professional basketball game should be played with no live attendance (which desperately needs to happen), people would ask what that has to do with cruising.

 

Finally, I'm not calling you out Omax4. This isn't meant to be an attack directed at you. Hopefully, folks will read this and take an extra minute to think about their community and maybe it would be better off to hold off on this vacation. What if you could safe a life or hundreds of lives by not going? The folks on the princess ships never gave a second of thought to not going, we got our first infection in my state by someone coming back from non cruise traveling.

 

Do you see where I'M going with this?

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As far as cruise ship travel in general goes somewhere on another board I saw a post where an epidemiologist took reported numbers on noro from a database and compared them to infection rates in general. You are actually less likely to catch noro on a cruise than back home living your life probably because of the cleaning and quarantine policies of cruise lines. 

 

Now I know you are going to say what about those noro ships? This is something that is similar to air travel. We don't hear about all the cruises without noro outbreaks on the news every day. Just the ones where it spreads wildly. So just like air crashes even with the large numbers in single events, the overall percentage is still very low.

 

There is a lot we don't know about this new virus. We don't know yet if it will be seasonal like colds and flu. They aren't even sure yet if SARS is seasonal. It takes time to establish clearly if a new virus is seasonal. We don't know if it is a two part infection, either. There are signs it might be but they aren't clear. We don't even know how many people might have mild cases of it and never get tested. Some experts think we might only be catching as little as 20% of cases since so many people with similar but mild symptoms who don't know of a clear contact aren't being tested. Until more people are being tested, they just can't rule it out. 

 

As for me, as of right now I'm going on a cruise later this month unless the cruise line cancels. It happens to be a river cruise on the Mississippi River so a much smaller ship than most ocean going vessels. Honestly I'd still be planning on going if it was an ocean cruise on the biggest ship out there.

 

Think of all the hundreds of thousands of people on cruises in the last 3 weeks who've been just fine. Clearly there isn't much chance of catching this virus on a cruise ship to begin with. I'm healthy with all my vaccines recently confirmed up-to-date and not in any of the groups most likely to suffer gravely from this virus. 

 

I just don't believe I'm any more likely to catch it on a cruise than on land, probably less so now they've got these enhanced screenings, and if I get quarantined I've already confirmed with my work my job will still be waiting when I get back. I'm one of several in my role so they'll be fine without me temporarily and the boss can't really say anything since he's currently on a cruise. Laissez les bons temps rouler!

 

This doesn't mean I in any way blame others for canceling out of concern. Everyone must do what seems best to them as everyone's circumstance is different. There is nothing irresponsible about making the best decision you can for yourself and not caring what other's think.

 

Certainly there is absolutely no evidence going on a vacation anywhere except a very few limited areas in any way endangers an individual's health nor their community. I'm not going to one of those areas, so I see no problem with my trip. If the situation should change and the small section of the Mississippi I am traveling becomes ground zero, I'll reconsider.

Edited by TravelinGert
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The problem with this virus is the infected individual has already done their damage before they even know they are sick. With the flu you get sick, you are puking, have muscle aches, look and feel horrible, then two days later you start to shed the virus and become infectious. You know you are sick and contagious, people can look and you and know you are sick.

 

With Covid-19 you are a-symptomatic for up to two weeks while still being infectious. Worse, a significant percentage will run the full course of the disease and never really feel bad enough to disrupt their lives. Because of these two facts, even if it were LESS contagious than the flu MORE people are going to end up infected. Currently the evidence is showing that it is much more contagious than the flu.

 

Our healthcare system is robust enough to handle the seasonal flu. It is not robust enough to handle Covid-19 even at conservative estimates unless something is done to slow down the spread.

 

So what are the repercussions of going above the dotted line. Appendicitis is now lethal, that's 250,000 deaths a year, 1.5 million dead from heart attacks and strokes, every cancer is now lethal, etc. Granted, not forever, but really, how long would be considered acceptable if it were your mom or dad who just died from something that is completely curable. 

 

Saying the cruise line should cancel for you and because they didn't you have no responsibility is like saying it is the liquor manufacturers fault you drove drunk and killed someone. It is all of our responsibilities to keep us in the blue. That means talking actions for the greater good not because you don't want to miss out on the fun.

Example.jpg

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U.S. citizens, especially with underlying conditions, should not travel by cruise ship. #CDC notes increased risk of #COVID19 on cruises. Many countries have implemented screening procedures, denied port entry rights to ships and prevented disembarking. https://t.co/jh93gZTkpC pic.twitter.com/jI6S0UceVg

— Travel - State Dept (@TravelGov) March 8, 2020
That's State Dept as in United States Department of State
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7 hours ago, aberfoylespring said:

Question: I booked the cruise via Costco Travel. So if I decide to cancel it (based on new policy, I will get the FCC), should I call Costco Travel directly or call the Cruise support line?

 

Thanks.

I have the same question-- have avoided so far because of the long call wait times (and I have a few days before i have to make a decision) .  I found a form online for Carnival where you can submit a reimbursement request but I wasn't sure if I was eligible since I booked through the big box agency

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I hate to do this but we have decided to cancel for the sake of our jobs.  We were supposed to be on the Joy on 3/28. There're just too much bad press about cruising now.  My wife works in the service industry in a big company.  If one person from the previous voyage got infected, we will end up like the Grand Princess.  

 

One of the infected passenger from the 2/11 voyage on Grand Princess is a Chicago Public School teacher. She got off the ship on 2/21. Went back to work on 2/25.  Didn't show symptoms until 3/2.  Now it's all over the news and the school is closed and students and staffs are all in home quarantine.  

 

We're not worried about actually getting the virus but if someone on our ship or the previous voyage does, we will affect a lot of people around us.  We just cannot take that responsibility.  Funny thing (and also sad) is as soon as we told our friends and co-workers that we're not going, they all breath a sigh of relief.  

 

God we were very looking forward for this cruise...

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8 hours ago, mollymae2016 said:

Cruises are now being affected by the Coronavirus.  We have balance due today and are seriously cancelling trip.  Anyone else?

 Rapidly becoming more a case of anyone going !

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We had already paid our final balance (we were to cruise on 5/31) and had checked into our cruise.  With the new DoS/CDC guidelines, we contacted our travel agency and had them cancel today.  It just did not seem worth it.

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8 minutes ago, freetalkfreelaugh said:

The Canadian government has issued a warning to avoid all cruises. They will arrange to pickup the Canadians on the Princess cruise ship.

 

Going forward though there is no guarantee for Canadian cruisers of getting flown back. A blanket stmt like that would be a deal breaker if still deciding to go. Basically you are on your own. 

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Assume you have been tested to discount Corona?

 

Would imagine cruises terminating in Venice now will be rerouted?

 

Latest news re the cruise ship off California docking in Oakland was that 2 passengers tested positive another 18 or so were crew. 

Regardless of the bargain prices of cruises and the fact they have casinos on board it would take a real gambler to take the risk at the moment. We rely on the honesty of others and that whoever took them to the port or airport is clear etc etc.

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14 hours ago, newbiewaves said:

Would imagine cruises terminating in Venice now will be rerouted?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51810673

Looks like the rest of Italys' ports, too.  If this virus really does run on a bell curve, and manages to wane in the next month in the US and Europe as it appears to now be doing in China (provided their numbers are accurate which is a matter of some debate), they may yeet reroute to Europe and pull out the summer.

 

Fingers crossed... 

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On 2/20/2020 at 10:02 AM, Icon901 said:

I view it like this.... 

Let's say my favorite pizza place is in a rough neighborhood. I love eating there. 

Now let's say I get a hankering for pizza on a Friday night and the news it talking about a rash of crime in that neighborhood tonight.

Do I say "I have no control over if someone shoots me" and go anyway? Or do I say "You know what, I LOVE Pizza, but my own personal risk assessment tells me that I'll just wait until Sunday afternoon and get a slice then". 

I personally am not willing to enter an environment with a high risk of transmission of a virus that's 3x more contagious and 20x more deadly than the standard flu. We have seen exactly what happens when someone who's infected is on a cruise ship. The cruise industry isn't going anywhere. Our favorite ships will be there this summer/fall/winter when this dies down.

 

Others may not be as well educated on the virulence of this particular strain, or their own personal risk/reward assessment might be calibrated differently. Everyone gets to make their own decision. There are certainly some great deals to be had for those willing to risk it. 

Thank you. This does help. I'm incredibly sad and I know so many of us feel this way and have been dreaming and researching and looking forward to it for months and months. The ships will still be there you are right. The one I really wanted to sail doesn't work for our future dates but I found another one that should be great. But the feels are real and it's hard to feel this way.

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I am really looking forward to my cruise out of Italy in May and hope Italy has ended its self-imposed quarantine by then. I am not so worried about the actual virus....more the extra 14 days quarantine that might follow. I don’t want to cancel as because of work, I can’t simply reschedule holiday time to some later date.....so would possibly lose both the cruise and my money. It took a long time to save! Really hoping that we get there. 🤞🤞🤞🤞

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On 3/8/2020 at 11:31 AM, aberfoylespring said:

Question: I booked the cruise via Costco Travel. So if I decide to cancel it (based on new policy, I will get the FCC), should I call Costco Travel directly or call the Cruise support line?

 

Thanks.

We cancelled our April cruise at the end of February with Costco. You need to contact Costco, the Cruiselines will not help you. We got everything back except our deposit, this was before the change in the cancellation policy. I have been trying to reach Costco, been on hold for more than 15 hours over the past 5 days. They keep you on hold for 3 hrs 1minute then automatically disconnect you- very very frustrating. If you want to cancel, you can send your name and cruise info to Cruisecancel@Costcotravel.com- they say they will process cancellations starting with the earliest departure date.

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On 2/20/2020 at 4:01 PM, gashead said:

It's not the risk of catching CV which is the main concern, it's the risk one of the passengers on board a 3,000 to 6,000 capacity cruise liner is diagnose with CV, then all the passengers are quarantined meaning you spend weeks stuck on board worrying about whether you are going to catch it yourself. Not sure that sounds like an enjoyable holiday to me, alternatively go on holiday to an hotel etc and there's probably zero chance of getting quarantined if a guest does go down with CV. 

Not sure about that. People have been quarantined in hotels in Europe. 

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Decision was made for us..my wife's employer told her that if she takes a cruise (which were booked for 5/31) she would have to use another 14 days of her PTO (which she does not have) to self quarantine even if asymptomatic. Pretty upset right now with them.

Edited by ScottnColeen
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Looks like we are heading towards mandatory cancellations.  I guess some are just not aware enough to make their own responsible decisions.  Congratulations to Princess for the first to make a very tough call:

 

Princess Cruises Announces a Voluntary and Temporary Pause of its Global Ship Operations for 60 Days

Cruise Line Remains Committed to the Health, Safety and Well-Being of Guests, Team Members and Communities Visited Globally

SANTA CLARITA, Calif (March 12, 2020) In proactive response to the unpredictable circumstances evolving from the global spread of COVID-19 and in an abundance of caution, Princess Cruises announced that it will voluntarily pause global operations of its 18 cruise ships for two months (60 days), impacting voyages departing March 12 to May 10.

Edited by T Tail
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On 2/23/2020 at 11:57 AM, Omax4 said:

Actually yes I am very serious. You are not putting yourself in harms way traveling on a cruise ship that is not traveling anywhere near China, Japan, Hong Kong, or a few other places in Asia. Why wouldn’t you travel on a cruise ship to places like Europe or the Caribbean? I’m going on a Caribbean cruise on Wednesday and I’m not worried all. 
 

And actually this virus is exactly like the flu. Expect that there isn’t a vaccine for it.

The mortality rate is higher at 2 percent compared to around 0.05 percent for standard flu which is indeed worrisome. That’s the biggest difference. 

.

 

Sorry to inform you, Omax, but this virus is NOT EXACTLY like the flu! There are vaccines for the flu! None for Coronavirus. If someone infected passes it to someone with immunity problems, lung or any respiratory issues or the elderly, they  could be be getting a death sentence!

 

This is NOT the flu! Do not delude yourself into thinking that way. We are all responsible to each other to keep from exposing each other! Listen to what the Health Officials say and do it! You may save your own life or the life of someone else! This is a true world pandemic! What part of that is difficult to understand? 

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Actually you are both correct and incorrect at the same time. This virus is a ‘flu’....a new strain of it. Every year flu comes around it is slightly different, and the vaccine we are given every year is different, based on which strain of the flu the scientists think is going to be most prevalent. The difference is, this one is totally new and spreads so easily and for many, has no symptoms, so people are inadvertently spreading it. So when we talk about ‘flu’ we are actually talking about a whole host of viruses that cause respiratory distress, including this new one.
 

Secondly, flu itself never kills anyone...it is the complications from respiratory distress that kill people....chest infection, pneumonia and sepsis. The ‘flu’ vaccine each year gives us a small amount of several viruses, and then our bodies create antibodies to fight those viruses. Then if we become exposed to that virus again, our bodies are ready primed to start fighting. For most healthy people, that is sufficient to knock it on its head, and each of us will suffer varying degrees of illness, which will pass. The problem comes when people who are already ill (and whose immune systems already stressed), have compromised immune systems...like after cancer treatment, or are simply weak and frail due to old age, become exposed and their bodies can not fight off the disease...they succumb to chest infections, that can lead to pneumonia and sometimes sepsis, organ failure etc and ultimately death. So people with diseases like COPD, heart disease, diabetes and so on will have a much bigger fight on their hands. BUT this is the case for all flu strains and even the common cold can lead to death.

 

So, whilst this virus is scary, it will settle down in the community, as all others have before...think SARS, bird flu, swine flu and so on....and will in future be part of the flu jab we are given, and as a species, we will build immunity against it....in time. In the meantime, something like 95% of people who catch it will have a mild illness that will not do any long lasting harm. For the remainder, it is indeed a worry, but keeping a distance, washing your hands and being sensible will all limit the spread. 

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Helengp,

 

That's incorrect information.  20% are shuttled off to intensive care.  5% are put on ventilators.  95% of those put on ventilators never make it out of the hospital.  The 20% who are in intensive care almost all suffer from PERMANENT lung disease with 20 to 30% decrease in their lung capacity due to the illness and the scaring it causes.  Add that to a 10% a decade that you are alive, decrease in lung capacity as a normal course of events, and you can see why this disease is so debilitating to so many over age 60.  Or to anyone hoping to make it to age 60!

This is not the flu  It is not SARS. It is not MERS.  it is not swine flu.  It is much more dangerous.  It will not settle down in the community until 70% of the population becomes immune to it (by getting it, or by vaccine, which doesn't exist) and stops spreading it.  Thats math.  The inverse (percentage of the population) of the R naught must be immune for it to die out.  The US government had a report (leaked to the New York Times yesterday) that estimated that this virus would not reach 70% immunity for 18 MONTHS.  God help us all.

Edited by T Tail
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5 hours ago, T Tail said:

Helengp,

 

That's incorrect information.  20% are shuttled off to intensive care.  5% are put on ventilators.  95% of those put on ventilators never make it out of the hospital.  The 20% who are in intensive care almost all suffer from PERMANENT lung disease with 20 to 30% decrease in their lung capacity due to the illness and the scaring it causes.  Add that to a 10% a decade that you are alive, decrease in lung capacity as a normal course of events, and you can see why this disease is so debilitating to so many over age 60.  Or to anyone hoping to make it to age 60!

This is not the flu  It is not SARS. It is not MERS.  it is not swine flu.  It is much more dangerous.  It will not settle down in the community until 70% of the population becomes immune to it (by getting it, or by vaccine, which doesn't exist) and stops spreading it.  Thats math.  The inverse (percentage of the population) of the R naught must be immune for it to die out.  The US government had a report (leaked to the New York Times yesterday) that estimated that this virus would not reach 70% immunity for 18 MONTHS.  God help us all.


Where are you getting this info from? How can anyone know what long term damage is being done when the virus has only been around a few months? I think your figures are spurious. 
 

Here in UK the proportion of infected people (tested positive) currently requiring hospital care is less than 1%. And not all of them are in respiratory distress! And that’s also based on figures of people actually tested....there are undoubtedly 1000s if not tens of 1000s who have this disease but show no symptoms so have not been tested. Please direct me to the actual medical source of your comment.

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