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Zaandam and Rotterdam Situation (merged topics starting March 22, 2020)


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27 minutes ago, Max2003 said:

On the marine traffic display I can only deduce which ships are the Rotterdam and Zaandam since they seem to be running with IFF off.  But since there are only three "passenger vessels" in the area I suppose we can speculate.  It appears that they have broken out of the pack and altered course such that they are now heading toward each other intersecting at about N 05d 30m  W 81d.   Does anyone else see this.  What I think is the Zaandam has altered to about 345 degrees and the Rotterdam to about 135 degrees.  This might imply more of an open water rendezvous??  And sooner.    What is the sea state?   

A rendezvous off Balboa would (even at their relatively high speeds) have occurred at or just after local sunset. I agree with your surmise that the two passengers vessels with AIS turned off seem to have changed course for an earlier high-seas meet. It might then be accomplished in the last hour or so of daylight. 

 

Adding current offshore weather: 

Afternoon

Light NW winds with a slight chop. Small mid period waves.

Winds: NW 8 to 11 knots.

Seas: SSW 4 feet at 12 seconds.

Edited by voyageur9
adding sea state
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1 hour ago, npcl said:

Somewhat limited in the things that they can do on a cruise ship. So they can take some precautions, but considering the space, the work to be done. the effectiveness of actions taken will be limited.

 

What would you expect them to do?

 

 

49 minutes ago, arabrab said:

In the case of a "flu" outbreak on the Zaandam, I'd expect them to take precautions such as limiting the number of staff present in any passageway at the same time, having staff wear masks and gloves while delivering food and picking up trays/soiled linens, and having the kitchen staff cover the trays with plastic wrap before they're set out for delivery. 

 

Yes, staggering delivery times would help with hallway congestion. It would be nice if they had enough masks and gloves to use them for all deliveries but I doubt they have nearly enough, especially masks. 

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Why would you think AIS is turned off.  AIS reporting is mostly based on land based receivers and there is sparse coverage in the open ocean.  It looks to me like an unknown vessel is headed for the canal and the Zaandam and Rotterdam are on a course almost immediately towards each other.

 

I don't think satellite could pick it up if the ships had AIS turned off.

 

Roy

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rafinmd is right.  AIS is not turned off, but is reported by satellites.  And unless you have an expensive account/membership with Marine traffic, all you get is the satellite indicator that there is a ship there, but no ID.  And I believe the ship closest to the canal is Hapag-Lloyd Europa.  She is not carrying any passengers and should transit tomorrow or Sat., possibly at night.  EM

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13 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

 

Yes, staggering delivery times would help with hallway congestion. It would be nice if they had enough masks and gloves to use them for all deliveries but I doubt they have nearly enough, especially masks. 

 

They've certainly got a sewing machine on board; probably several. They've got lots of sheets. There are many patterns out there for masks -- our local hospital is asking folks here to sew them according to a specific pattern. They'll be washed and re-used. Some of the local sewing folks say that they can make 8/hour. With some people cutting and some sewing, I'd guess they can have 100 or more in a day. In two or three days, 300+.  "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" needs to be the mantra.

Edited by arabrab
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17 minutes ago, voyageur9 said:

A rendezvous off Balboa would (even at their relatively high speeds) have occurred at or just after local sunset. I agree with your surmise that the two passengers vessels with AIS turned off seem to have changed course for an earlier high-seas meet. It might then be accomplished in the last hour or so of daylight. 

 

Adding current offshore weather: 

Afternoon

Light NW winds with a slight chop. Small mid period waves.

Winds: NW 8 to 11 knots.

Seas: SSW 4 feet at 12 seconds.

Sea state not too bad using the lee of the ship for loading and unloading tender, 

 

 Captain Albert will make it look like a walk in the park.

 

Wishing them the best!!  "Fair winds and following seas"

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May God grant safety, guidance, and wisdom to those who command and conn these damships, the staff who care for the passengers and crew, and the administrators who are working hard to get all the clearances needed to get them home.  

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17 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

According to the Navigator app, the positions are (North latitude, west longitude)

Zaandam: 4.14, 80.70

Rotterdam: 6.73, 82.37

That's 185 nm apart. Assuming direct courses towards each other and a closing speed of 40+ knots, Rotterdam has been doing 23+ and Zaandam about 20, then a rendezvous in something over four hours from the time of the lat-long provided by Wehwalt.

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52 minutes ago, RevNeal said:

May God grant safety, guidance, and wisdom to those who command and conn these damships, the staff who care for the passengers and crew, and the administrators who are working hard to get all the clearances needed to get them home.  

 

Amen to that!  m--

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3 hours ago, Captain_Morgan said:

 

Highly unlikely that such news would be shared with passengers let alone announced in any way 🙄


Exactly. When people die on cruise ships, it is not announced to the rest of the passengers, so reports from current passengers saying they heard nothing are totally irrelevant. In fact, the crew is probably under orders not to say anything.
 

Same goes for numbers of sick. Why would the ship create more panic by announcing a steady increase in the numbers?  

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1 hour ago, arabrab said:

 

They've certainly got a sewing machine on board; probably several. They've got lots of sheets. There are many patterns out there for masks -- our local hospital is asking folks here to sew them according to a specific pattern. They'll be washed and re-used. Some of the local sewing folks say that they can make 8/hour. With some people cutting and some sewing, I'd guess they can have 100 or more in a day. In two or three days, 300+.  "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" needs to be the mantra.

 

From CDC website. Homemade masks are way down the list below "crisis mode." My concern about these is the false sense of security they can lead to, since we don't know if they work.

 

HCP use of homemade masks:
In settings where facemasks are not available, HCP might use homemade masks (e.g., bandana, scarf) for care of patients with COVID-19 as a last resort. However, homemade masks are not considered PPE, since their capability to protect HCP is unknown. Caution should be exercised when considering this option. Homemade masks should ideally be used in combination with a face shield that covers the entire front (that extends to the chin or below) and sides of the face.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/ppe-strategy/face-masks.html

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19 minutes ago, Cruzaholic41 said:


Exactly. When people die on cruise ships, it is not announced to the rest of the passengers, so reports from current passengers saying they heard nothing are totally irrelevant. In fact, the crew is probably under orders not to say anything.
 

Same goes for numbers of sick. Why would the ship create more panic by announcing a steady increase in the numbers?  

Not true for the numbers of sick passengers and crew.

DH and I were on a cruise last year with Norovirus that would not go away.  The captain would give daily reports of the number and percent of passengers and crew reporting sick.  The numbers and percentages went up for a few days as more sanitizers appeared along with salt and pepper packets, etc (the usual code red adjustments).  Then, to everyone's relief they started going down, well before cruise ended.

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2 minutes ago, sansterre said:

Not true for the numbers of sick passengers and crew.

DH and I were on a cruise last year with Norovirus that would not go away.  The captain would give daily reports of the number and percent of passengers and crew reporting sick.  The numbers and percentages went up for a few days as more sanitizers appeared along with salt and pepper packets, etc (the usual code red adjustments).  Then, to everyone's relief they started going down, well before cruise ended.

 

I agree its not uncommon in a particularly bad outbreak of norovirus to have some more in depth information being shared by the Captain as a means to remind people of the importance of hand washing, etc.  If they've got COVID onboard however, I think there's likely going to be less sharing of information so as to reduce/ease the panic which is near inevitable once you tell everyone onboard to remain in their cabins indefinitely.

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24 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

What's reported on my app right now (5:10 pm EDT)

Zaandam: 4.45 N, 80.78 W

Rotterdam 6.49 N, 82.07 W

Those positions are 145 nautical miles (167 miles, 268 kms) apart

 

... and sunset halfway between the two is approx 1915 (EDT) .... just under two hours. Anyone familiar with lat/long calcs, please check my math.

Edited by voyageur9
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Is there any official way to confirm whether or not Panama has allowed them a permit to go through the canal?  I have clients on board who just shared with their daughter that Panama denied their permit to go through the canal.  Holland will not confirm or deny this when I called.

 

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

Same goes for numbers of sick. Why would the ship create more panic by announcing a steady increase in the numbers?  

 

I thought that was required by law?  

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11 minutes ago, Captain_Morgan said:

 

I agree its not uncommon in a particularly bad outbreak of norovirus to have some more in depth information being shared by the Captain as a means to remind people of the importance of hand washing, etc.  If they've got COVID onboard however, I think there's likely going to be less sharing of information so as to reduce/ease the panic which is near inevitable once you tell everyone onboard to remain in their cabins indefinitely.

 

They already are being told to remain in their cabins indefinitely; I do not expect that to change honestly.  At no point does this become a regular cruise again.  

 

Withholding information from guests onboard as to actual numbers of illness strikes me as unethical. Again, once they reach a threshold of quantity where illness has to be reported I believe they are legally obligated to provide accurate information.  Not wanting guests to panic is one thing; but for those onboard the ship being kept in the dark would be far worse.

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8 minutes ago, purrlinda said:

Is there any official way to confirm whether or not Panama has allowed them a permit to go through the canal?  I have clients on board who just shared with their daughter that Panama denied their permit to go through the canal.  Holland will not confirm or deny this when I called.

 

 

 

 

The ships have possibly changed their rendezvous point from the speculated Balboa, Panama location (at the entrance of the canal) to a speculated open sea point.   If Panama is being difficult the new location would be closer for a diversion to the US west coast. 

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9 minutes ago, Max2003 said:

The ships have possibly changed their rendezvous point from the speculated Balboa, Panama location (at the entrance of the canal) to a speculated open sea point.   If Panama is being difficult the new location would be closer for a diversion to the US west coast. 

Thank you for your comment.  I am not great at interpreting the nautical data but you guys here are amazing.

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  • CCHelp changed the title to Zaandam and Rotterdam Situation (merged topics starting March 22, 2020)
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