Zaandam and Rotterdam Situation (merged topics starting March 22, 2020)

[DAllenTCY]

Buses, trains, taxis, ride-share vehicles, and subways.....they all continue to operate.

 

Think about the shopping cart you use at the store, the ATM and elevator buttons.

 

All of the above can spread this virus.

 

Yet cruise ships seem to get the headlines in the evening news.

 

 

David

 

 

Edited March 28, 2020 by DAllenTCY

[cruisemom42]

23 minutes ago, Cruising Is Bliss said:

 

Rotterdam brought the COVID-19 test kits. The ships have the equipment to process flu tests. Test kits are virus specific and what they didn't previously have was COVID-19 test kits. Any ship which has the equipment to process a test for the regular flu uses the same equipment to do these tests.

 

Labs use expensive machines that automate the process and do multiple tests at once but tests can be manually processed individually.

 

There are several types of rapid flu tests that I assume ships could process, but I don't think they can perform rt-PCR, which are the only COVID tests available.  If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.

 

[Hlitner]

15 minutes ago, DAllenTCY said:

Buses, trains, taxis, ride-share vehicles, and subways.....they all continue to operate.

 

Think about the shopping cart you use at the store, the ATM and elevator buttons.

 

All of the above can spread this virus.

 

Yet cruise ships seem to get the headlines in the evening news.

 

 

David

 

 

I will not get into a debate on the topic but perhaps this CDC article will explain and educate:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6912e3.htm

 

You might also consider that this MMWR was written prior to the Zaandam situation.

 

Hank

 

[Bluewake]

2 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

Ah, no. Princess officials don't manage HAL. And what other solutions do you offer, as opposed to the Diamond Princess situation? A cruise line can't just dock and offload patients wherever they feel like. Curious to know what you would have done differently?

 

While the research is evolving every day, at this point the evidence strongly suggests that people who have the virus but are asymptomatic are transmitting it to others. In fact, there even is some anecdotal evidence that those who are infected are most contagious the day or two prior to symptom onset.   Given this likely possibility of transmission ( the estimated rate is that 2.5 people are infected by each carrier)  by individuals who do not present with symptoms, releasing passengers who are known to have been in some degree of contact with others who have tested positive and declaring them free to come and go as they please predicated on the assumption they are not infected is irresponsible.  Since you asked, I believe the prudent thing to do is to negotiate with the US government to identify a port that will agree to allow the ship to disembark passengers on the condition of a mandatory quarantine for 14 days after which those who manifest no illness are free to go.   Frankly, the question of whether the US has an obligation to accept non- citizens must also be considered. Other nations may need to be involved in the negotiations.

 

[sail7seas]

 The U.S. Nav y Hospital ship  arrivd   in CA . today.

[TiogaCruiser]

Some other medical technology heavy countries ( and some with more experience than the US) have developed other tests. They are just not FDA approved. That is why I am wondering if perhaps the test kits were from another country.  After all, much of the medical staff, including the Medical Director, is not from US or Canada.
 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/03/16/national/japan-coronavirus-policy-flatten-curve/#.Xn61OCVlDDs

[3rdGenCunarder]

1 hour ago, Cruisercl said:

No that is not true. Sleep apnea may eventually cause issues that may lead to early death but no one has a CPAP machine at home that is a life and death situation if not used every day/night. Even severe sleep apnea patients can be without it for one or two nights. There are other things that can help temporarily.

Pulmonary nurse expert here.....

IMO, they do not want the machines onboard because they cannot guarantee they have been cleaned appropriately and can be a petri dish of bacteria and viruses.

 

 

The CPAP as a source of germs makes sense. Since you're  a pulmonary nurse, let me ask you a question I've had since this issue of CPAPs came up. Are there people who use them who have other respiratory issues than sleep apnea or snoring? I wonder if HAL doesn't want to transfer those passengers because they have conditions that might make them more susceptible/vulnerable to the virus and they are trying to minimize cases, especially severe ones, on Rotterdam? The goal seems to be for it to be the "healthy" ship, although it may not work out that way.

[npcl]

39 minutes ago, Cruising Is Bliss said:

 

Rotterdam brought the COVID-19 test kits. The ships have the equipment to process flu tests. Test kits are virus specific and what they didn't previously have was COVID-19 test kits. Any ship which has the equipment to process a test for the regular flu uses the same equipment to do these tests.

 

Labs use expensive machines that automate the process and do multiple tests at once but tests can be manually processed individually.

Actually the PCR tests need equipment which is not on board.  They are not anything like flu tests. The test kits are basically swabs with certain reagents to hold the samples until they can be processed.

 

Lets just say hypothetically that such equipment was available, then if they could test and get results would they only have the two positive, even though there are many others that are suspected.  After all if everyone else tested negative no need for the things they are doing.

 

I suspect that somehow the two tested positive earlier somewhere, somehow and as such they knew when the other cases developed that they were probably Covid-19 as well. We will see for sure once the tests are taken and get to land for analysis and see how many others are positive.

 

 

[npcl]

40 minutes ago, rvdnsx said:

Not trying to be insensitive in anyway, especially to the families who have lost loved ones.  But why are people still taking vacations right now?  I don’t know when this cruise started but hasn’t this Coronavirus been in the news for long enough for people to make a decision of traveling or not?  I get that people won’t get all their money back by cancelling last minute but nothing is more important then your health.  
 

A lot of what is going on in the world right now is due to people traveling without thinking of others around them.  Containment isn’t possible when people are still free to travel, especially between countries.  Just my two cents, and if anyone doesn’t agree with me then flame away.

Because they boarded the ship in early March before everything fell apart.  At the time they left the cruise lines were sailing and most of the travel restrictions did not exist.

[sanmarcosman]

14 minutes ago, sail7seas said:

 The U.S. Nav y Hospital ship  arrivd   in CA . today.

It was in California, the Mercy is home ported in San Diego 😉 

[rafinmd]

According to marine traffic both ships have tenders at the Zaandam now.

 

Roy

[CruiserBruce]

26 minutes ago, Bluewake said:

 

While the research is evolving every day, at this point the evidence strongly suggests that people who have the virus but are asymptomatic are transmitting it to others. In fact, there even is some anecdotal evidence that those who are infected are most contagious the day or two prior to symptom onset.   Given this likely possibility of transmission ( the estimated rate is that 2.5 people are infected by each carrier)  by individuals who do not present with symptoms, releasing passengers who are known to have been in some degree of contact with others who have tested positive and declaring them free to come and go as they please predicated on the assumption they are not infected is irresponsible.  Since you asked, I believe the prudent thing to do is to negotiate with the US government to identify a port that will agree to allow the ship to disembark passengers on the condition of a mandatory quarantine for 14 days after which those who manifest no illness are free to go.   Frankly, the question of whether the US has an obligation to accept non- citizens must also be considered. Other nations may need to be involved in the negotiations.

 

Will all due respect, I don't think this has anything to do with the Diamond Princess situation, which is what the quote you cited is in reference to. What you described is essentially the Grand Princess resolution,  and I suspect something like that will occur with Zaandam.

[aliaschief]

Just prayers and concerns for cruisers, crew and the World. 🙏🙏🙏

A huge awakening and there is more important things then cruising.

 

Stay safe my friends and become germaphobics.

 

We will beat this and cruise again.😎

[sansterre]

30 minutes ago, TiogaCruiser said:

Some other medical technology heavy countries ( and some with more experience than the US) have developed other tests. They are just not FDA approved. That is why I am wondering if perhaps the test kits were from another country.  After all, much of the medical staff, including the Medical Director, is not from US or Canada.
 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/03/16/national/japan-coronavirus-policy-flatten-curve/#.Xn61OCVlDDs

Wow, we sure are behind when it comes to testing technology.  I am still waiting for results for a COVID-19 test I took last Friday - over a week ago! 

Thanks for posting this!

[geocruiser]

11 minutes ago, sansterre said:

Wow, we sure are behind when it comes to testing technology.  I am still waiting for results for a COVID-19 test I took last Friday - over a week ago! 

Thanks for posting this!

I hope that you are feeling well.  Wishing you the best.

[Copper10-8]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

There are several types of rapid flu tests that I assume ships could process, but I don't think they can perform rt-PCR, which are the only COVID tests available.  If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.

 

 

A heads up; the COVID-19 test kits delivered last night by Rotterdam to Zaandam have the ability to produce the test result without the need to have them shipped to a shore-side lab

[PelicanBill]

 

There is now a rapid test which uses drops of blood to test for immume response to Covid-19 (antibodies?). Results in one minute.

It is not a test that can be used to 100% diagnose Covid-19 but can be used to pre-screen and isolate people who are likely to have been exposed or developing it.

 

Source: company in my town making it, ready to ship thousands, $35 each.

 

[gilboman]

1 hour ago, DAllenTCY said:

Buses, trains, taxis, ride-share vehicles, and subways.....they all continue to operate.

 

Think about the shopping cart you use at the store, the ATM and elevator buttons.

 

All of the above can spread this virus.

 

Yet cruise ships seem to get the headlines in the evening news.

 

 

David

 

 

You take public transit including ride-sharing as transportation. Cruises arent transportation really and you're not on a bus for 7+ days with 3000+ other people

 

Huge difference in risk

 

You also don't get multiple people dying while on public transportation or in an elevator

Edited March 28, 2020 by gilboman

[thyme2go]

1 hour ago, sail7seas said:

 The U.S. Nav y Hospital ship  arrivd   in CA . today.

My understanding is the hospital ships will only treat non Covid patients.......they will provide back up for routine medical needs to allow existing medical beds on land to be used for Covid patients.   

[arabrab]

The full Rotterdam FAQ for their staff is at the bottom of this article: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241559956.html

 

page 3 indicates that the Rotterdam plans to head to the "Northwest U.S. area to disembark guests."

 

Looking at the FAQ  and the level of detail and repetition -- I think there is some real unhappiness among the crew.

Edited March 28, 2020 by arabrab

[dockman]

2 hours ago, Cruisercl said:

No that is not true. Sleep apnea may eventually cause issues that may lead to early death but no one has a CPAP machine at home that is a life and death situation if not used every day/night. Even severe sleep apnea patients can be without it for one or two nights. There are other things that can help temporarily.

Pulmonary nurse expert here.....

IMO, they do not want the machines onboard because they cannot guarantee they have been cleaned appropriately and can be a petri dish of bacteria and viruses.

 

thank you...so my brother/wife were ready to transfer to rotterdam but they told them no due to cpap...he told them he was glad to leave it behind as not all that necessary...they said they had to check with cdc...i have not heard back yet...do u think as long as he leaves machine behind that it is likely they got onto the rotterdam?

 

thank u for your info / opinions that  u can share with me...

Edited March 28, 2020 by dockman

[thyme2go]

2 hours ago, rvdnsx said:

Not trying to be insensitive in anyway, especially to the families who have lost loved ones.  But why are people still taking vacations right now?  I don’t know when this cruise started but hasn’t this Coronavirus been in the news for long enough for people to make a decision of traveling or not?  I get that people won’t get all their money back by cancelling last minute but nothing is more important then your health.  
 

A lot of what is going on in the world right now is due to people traveling without thinking of others around them.  Containment isn’t possible when people are still free to travel, especially between countries.  Just my two cents, and if anyone doesn’t agree with me then flame away.

I agree with the "common sense" of your comments...........However, I believe HAL bears the brunt of responsibility for these catastrophe's.........Any business owes something to it's consumers.......in these cases HAL made the decision to continue business as usual until March 13 which was a profit motive, not a consumer maintenance motive.....and that decision is affecting passengers.    Some of them have lost their live's........that's solely on HAL.

Also, we made the decision not to go on our cruise when we were told by HAL it was going to happen.   24 hours later they cancelled all cruises.    It's very apparent to us that HAL has manipulated their cruise information to consumers.....and continues to do so at this time.   It's not only unethical........it's far worse.   Passengers, staff and crew get all my sympathy.......corporate gets all the responsibility for this mess.

Also just saw the 'notice' to Rotterdam staff...........I'll say it again.....HAL corporate gets all responsibility for anything that happens on that ship.    One has to wonder if they have clearance to get off in the NW?    Seattle is overwhelmed already.....I can't imagine Astoria or Portland being "open" either..........

Edited March 28, 2020 by thyme2go
wording

[Deseo1578]

3 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

If this is true, this crisis is going to have an economic world-wide impact that is unimaginable.

 

Having sailed through the Suez Canal and seeing the many blockades that Egypt had built to close the canal if they chose to do so, I never thought that Panama might do the same.

 

  

Hi The Panama Canal is not closed! 

[Copper10-8]

1 hour ago, sail7seas said:

 The U.S. Nav y Hospital ship  arrivd   in CA . today.

 

Evening S7S; just FYI; USNS Mercy (T-AH-19) (now at the Port of L.A.) is home-ported at U.S. Naval Base San Diego, CA, while USNS Comfort (T-AH-20) (arriving Monday at the Port of New York) is home-ported at U.S. Naval Station Norfolk, VA. They both didn't have that far to go, but their presence in both L.A. and the Big Apple will no doubt be welcomed 

[cruisemom42]

46 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

A heads up; the COVID-19 test kits delivered last night by Rotterdam to Zaandam have the ability to produce the test result without the need to have them shipped to a shore-side lab

 

Thanks for the heads up, I stand corrected. Things are moving quickly indeed -- but I would still wonder, if these are using a different technology, about the accuracy. (As per previously reported differences between the rapid flu tests and the "laboratory standard" rt-PCR tests...