Zaandam and Rotterdam Situation (merged topics starting March 22, 2020)

[npcl]

1 hour ago, PelicanBill said:

 

There is now a rapid test which uses drops of blood to test for immume response to Covid-19 (antibodies?). Results in one minute.

It is not a test that can be used to 100% diagnose Covid-19 but can be used to pre-screen and isolate people who are likely to have been exposed or developing it.

 

Source: company in my town making it, ready to ship thousands, $35 each.

 

One thing to note about the antibody tests is that they will test positive for anybody with the antibodies present.  Not just active disease.  They are generally used more to test a portion of a population to see how many has been exposed to get an idea about potential herd immunity.

 

Someone could have had Covid-19 recovered, and would not test positive on a PCR test, but would test positive on an antibody test.

 

 

[npcl]

1 hour ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

A heads up; the COVID-19 test kits delivered last night by Rotterdam to Zaandam have the ability to produce the test result without the need to have them shipped to a shore-side lab

Do you know the test type or manufacturer?

[Copper10-8]

5 minutes ago, npcl said:

Do you know the test type or manufacturer?

 

I do not

[DaveSJ711]

31 minutes ago, thyme2go said:

I agree with the "common sense" of your comments...........However, I believe HAL bears the brunt of responsibility for these catastrophe's.........Any business owes something to it's consumers.......in these cases HAL made the decision to continue business as usual until March 13 which was a profit motive, not a consumer maintenance motive.....and that decision is affecting passengers.    Some of them have lost their live's........that's solely on HAL.

Also, we made the decision not to go on our cruise when we were told by HAL it was going to happen.   24 hours later they cancelled all cruises.    It's very apparent to us that HAL has manipulated their cruise information to consumers.....and continues to do so at this time.   It's not only unethical........it's far worse.   Passengers, staff and crew get all my sympathy.......corporate gets all the responsibility for this mess.

Also just saw the 'notice' to Rotterdam staff...........I'll say it again.....HAL corporate gets all responsibility for anything that happens on that ship.    One has to wonder if they have clearance to get off in the NW?    Seattle is overwhelmed already.....I can't imagine Astoria or Portland being "open" either..........

 

Wow, 12 ellipses!

 

Anyway, it's overstating the case to say that Seattle is "already overwhelmed."  Just yesterday, Gov. Inslee -- who, coincidentally, lives about two miles from me -- said that Washington could become overwhelmed if it doesn't add sufficient hospital capacity.  But neither the state nor Seattle is overwhelmed currently.

 

Also, it makes sense at a certain level for the Rotterdam to come to Seattle.  After all, HAL is headquartered here.

[Sir PMP]

4 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

As others have mentioned, Zaandam has been denied passage, true. But the Canal itself is not closed. Terminology is important.

This discussion is about the Zaandam, not the Maersk container ships...

[Cruzaholic41]

1 hour ago, DaveSJ711 said:

 

Also, it makes sense at a certain level for the Rotterdam to come to Seattle.  After all, HAL is headquartered here.

What does the location of HQ have to do with anything?  

[Aquahound]

My apologies if this was already posted, but I just saw on my local news that HAL's new spokesman, Seth Wayne, happens to be on this cruise.  I'm not sure his messaging was the greatest because he was bashing other countries for not allowing them to dock but regardless, I found it interesting he was on this cruise.  

[sansterre]

58 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

My apologies if this was already posted, but I just saw on my local news that HAL's new spokesman, Seth Wayne, happens to be on this cruise.  I'm not sure his messaging was the greatest because he was bashing other countries for not allowing them to dock but regardless, I found it interesting he was on this cruise.  

Good.  More people should be "bashing other countries for not allowing them to dock".

[Wehwalt]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/passengers-die-aboard-cruise-ship-stranded-panama-200327190914188.html

That's an interesting article, as is the little squib discussing Zaandam some ways below the main story. If this is accurate, permission had been granted on Wednesday but that was contradicted on Friday, and the squib below says Zaandam was denied based on "sanitary conditions". 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Wehwalt

[sansterre]

36 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/passengers-die-aboard-cruise-ship-stranded-panama-200327190914188.html

That's an interesting article, as is the little squib discussing Zaandam some ways below the main story. If this is accurate, permission had been granted on Wednesday but that was contradicted on Friday, and the squib below says Zaandam was denied based on "sanitary conditions". 

 

Hmmmm, What sanitary conditions would the officials be referring to?

Here is that item Wewalt must be referring to....... I cut and pasted from near the bottom of the above url:

 

00:01 GMT - Cruise ship with coronavirus outbreak blocked from transiting Panama Canal

Panamanian health officials have blocked Holland America Line's MS Zaandam from transiting the Panama Canal, citing sanitary conditions after a coronavirus outbreak on board the cruise ship. 

Four passengers have died on board, with more than 130 others suffering from influenza-like symptoms. At least two of them have the coronavirus, the vessel's operator said.

The ship is carrying 1,243 guests and 586 crew, as well as four doctors and four nurses, the cruise operator said in a statement.

[Wehwalt]

13 minutes ago, sansterre said:

 

Hmmmm, What sanitary conditions would the officials be referring to?

Here is that item Wewalt must be referring to....... I cut and pasted from near the bottom of the above url:

 

00:01 GMT - Cruise ship with coronavirus outbreak blocked from transiting Panama Canal

Panamanian health officials have blocked Holland America Line's MS Zaandam from transiting the Panama Canal, citing sanitary conditions after a coronavirus outbreak on board the cruise ship. 

Four passengers have died on board, with more than 130 others suffering from influenza-like symptoms. At least two of them have the coronavirus, the vessel's operator said.

The ship is carrying 1,243 guests and 586 crew, as well as four doctors and four nurses, the cruise operator said in a statement.

That is the one I was referring to. I wonder if any new information came to the attention of the Panamanian authorities between Wednesday and Friday to cause them to change their minds.

[Krazy Kruizers]

This is a sad situation for the Zaandam.

 

As we were watching the news early last evening they did cover the Zaandam and showed a picture of her just anchoring off the shore of Panama and they mentioned about her being banned from entering the canal.

[ducklite]

13 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

I believe this ship initially left out of South America.    Do we have any idea how many US citizens are onboard?    

One news article I read said 300 and change.  It could be incorrect, but that's what I read.

[ducklite]

13 hours ago, dockman said:

Update five minutes ago:  They are telling healthy passengers  with CPAC machines that they cannot be transferred to Rotterdam.  Apparently a lot of people have these and are upset.  Ship is checking with CDC re this so these people are anxiously awaiting to hear response.

 

No idea why a cpac would be a factor.

CPAP.  If not properly cleaned (and most who have them don't properly clean and sanitize them--it definitely isn't happening while on a cruise ship) they can harbor all sorts of bacteria and viruses.

[DFD1]

CPAPs, not properly sanitized regularly, are the perfect place for any virus to hide.

[ducklite]

13 hours ago, Covepointcruiser said:

How can a passenger leave without their CPAP machine.   I thought those machines were required to keep them alive at night.   Those folks would never travel without their CPAP machines.

Many people who use them don't need them to stay alive. They might have low level sleep apnea which affects their sleep patterns but isn't going to cause them to stop breathing entirely and pass away.  Others use them to prevent snoring.

[Wehwalt]

2 minutes ago, ducklite said:

Many people who use them don't need them to stay alive. They might have low level sleep apnea which affects their sleep patterns but isn't going to cause them to stop breathing entirely and pass away.  Others use them to prevent snoring.

I suspect they don't want to have to sort out who needs them and who doesn't, given time constraints.

[ducklite]

13 hours ago, LMaxwell said:

 

Allegedly the Rotterdam was dispatched with a number of kits to meet Zaandam.  Some tests can give results in a few hours. 

The FDA just approved a 15 minute test.

[ducklite]

12 hours ago, rafinmd said:

 

Not literally but effectively true as the Zaandam has been denied passage through the canal.  Unless the US Navy responds to the canal and forces them to let the ship through the Zaandam has to choose from the available options.

 

Roy

Forcing a country to do something they don't want to do is how wars start.  That would be beyond foolish to even consider.

[ducklite]

10 hours ago, TiogaCruiser said:

Some other medical technology heavy countries ( and some with more experience than the US) have developed other tests. They are just not FDA approved. That is why I am wondering if perhaps the test kits were from another country.  After all, much of the medical staff, including the Medical Director, is not from US or Canada.
 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/03/16/national/japan-coronavirus-policy-flatten-curve/#.Xn61OCVlDDs

I was thinking the same thing.  There has been a rapid test kit available in other countries for a month now, the FDA just approved it late yesterday.  I suspect the got their hands on some of these and that is what was used.

[ducklite]

10 hours ago, npcl said:

Actually the PCR tests need equipment which is not on board.  They are not anything like flu tests. The test kits are basically swabs with certain reagents to hold the samples until they can be processed.

 

Lets just say hypothetically that such equipment was available, then if they could test and get results would they only have the two positive, even though there are many others that are suspected.  After all if everyone else tested negative no need for the things they are doing.

 

I suspect that somehow the two tested positive earlier somewhere, somehow and as such they knew when the other cases developed that they were probably Covid-19 as well. We will see for sure once the tests are taken and get to land for analysis and see how many others are positive.

 

 

I also believe that if a bunch of people had tested positive for influenza, HAL would have said so as well as stating that they were working towards getting more Influenza kits and Tamiflu to the ship.  Because they weren't saying "Influenza" from the start made it pretty easy to read between the lines that this was not an Influenza outbreak. 

The Influenza test requires a swab and 15 minutes to process.  I've had it done at Minute Clinic to rule out Influenza when I've had an URI or sinus infection.  I imagine that all ships would carry a supply of those test kits.

[ducklite]

9 hours ago, thyme2go said:

My understanding is the hospital ships will only treat non Covid patients.......they will provide back up for routine medical needs to allow existing medical beds on land to be used for Covid patients.   

This was entirely my understanding as well.  They will not be treating any type of infectious disease, and will be there for heart attacks, strokes, broken bones, appendicitis, gall stones, kidney stones, sutures, burns, etc.

[ducklite]

4 hours ago, sansterre said:

 

Hmmmm, What sanitary conditions would the officials be referring to?

Here is that item Wewalt must be referring to....... I cut and pasted from near the bottom of the above url:

 

00:01 GMT - Cruise ship with coronavirus outbreak blocked from transiting Panama Canal

Panamanian health officials have blocked Holland America Line's MS Zaandam from transiting the Panama Canal, citing sanitary conditions after a coronavirus outbreak on board the cruise ship. 

Four passengers have died on board, with more than 130 others suffering from influenza-like symptoms. At least two of them have the coronavirus, the vessel's operator said.

The ship is carrying 1,243 guests and 586 crew, as well as four doctors and four nurses, the cruise operator said in a statement.

It's quite possible that there is a slight gap in translation and the typical American usage of the word sanitary.  "Sanitary" also means "free from infectious disease."   In Spanish speaking Panama, that could easily mean that they are refusing passage because the ship is not free from infectious disease.  

[ducklite]

33 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

I suspect they don't want to have to sort out who needs them and who doesn't, given time constraints.

Most people I know who don't need one don't bother taking it along when they travel.  Of course I don't know everyone.

[SY7DNEY CRUISER]

I feel terribly sorry for the  passengers. Shuttered  from port to Port To Port

Four passenger dead And many more ill.