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Zaandam and Rotterdam Situation (merged topics starting March 22, 2020)


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1 minute ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

Me thinks the admiral (ret) came to this meeting prepared to answer questions on the Zaandam/Rotterdam issue which was the purpose of his being there. Then all of a sudden, a county commissioner (Bogen? not sure), who apparently had just been told by someone on his cellphone of the medevac of the CP crew member this morning, confronts him with that info. The admiral did not know anything about it, and thus got the mother of all blindsides which, I'm sure did not make his day.

 

It also sounds like that, at the resumption of the meeting after their 10 min recess that turned into a one hour and ten minute recess, he, so the admiral, had been brought up to speed on the CP medevac by his staff, because of his comments at that time

 

Always been a fan of John Heald and his style of writing/speaking; very funny guy!  

 

My impression was when it was initially brought up that he was aware based on his statements that they had a relationship with Broward Health, there had been an email chain but his phone had died so he could not reference it, and the flimsy offer that the ship had not left US territorial waters so no "new" notification was necessary (that got blown out pretty quickly).  I think he was aware but certainly did not anticipate it coming up. 

 

Carnival Corp is NOT the only company to have to debark crew in the past few days; Royal Caribbean has had Symphony of the Seas, Oasis of the Seas, and the aforementioned Celebrity ship offload crew needing medical attention. So it is also possible that while he was aware the ship had come in for that reason; he may not have known that the Port Director, CDC, or USCG had Not been contacted; as those would be duties of the ship...and I'll cut the guy some slack, he is NOT on any ship at the moment.  It may be reasonable to assume, as spokesperson, if you are copied on an email chain about a ship approaching with sick crew that those responsible are notifying the appropriate parties.  So I won't roast him for that. 

 

But the point in questioning was how to verify the statements of what HAL claims versus what reality is when the ship arrives.  The commissioners are asking for assurances that they will A. Be notified appropriately and B. There me some mechanism to validate the numbers as of whatever time the ship may be seeking admittance. 

 

I can appreciate that this is a fan forum, but these are critical questions that must be resolved.  Operating with more data, not less, is for the benefit of everyone in this situation.  

 

Carnival Corps plan today was little more than "Drive people in Florida home; get the rest of the people into the commercial air travel system. We trust they'll go home." 

 

Broward County response was "Is that your plan? Maybe your next plan should be to come up with a plan." 

 

Much of the messaging has a vague whiff of 'Get there itis'; ignoring the realities of the situation and focusing on the final goal. Choosing Port Everglades as the disembarkation spot seems to have originated in, and held to, the idea that the ship would have arrived there early April anyways, and not accounting for the realities Broward county is facing.  If the crisis were a hurricane which decimated south floridas infrastructure, power grids, and water supply...would landing guests there still be a reasonable choice?

 

That's the reality of the situation as I see it.  

 

I genuinely hope HAL is forming a robust plan and putting their formidable resources to bear to bring together a plan the county can work with. 

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42 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

A unified command is widely used in police work, as well as in the fire service. It is basically a combined incident command system where in the manager and supervisors of different services or units come together and form a "unified command" to deal with a serious issue. That way, all the various components to solve that issue are already present, and don't have to be contacted one at a time to fulfil requests needed for "problem solving." The concept has been around for a while. I remember working it as a Patrol sergeant in my prior career. It comes in very handy to the incident commander and "lightens his/her load" tremendously. The ultimate decision rests with that incident commander 

 

It's when all that boring ICS training comes in handy!   I can't tell you how many times I've sat in a command post and thought "hey, so that's what that training meant."  :classic_tongue:

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1 minute ago, Aquahound said:

 

It's when all that boring ICS training comes in handy!   I can't tell you how many times I've sat in a command post and thought "hey, so that's what that training meant."  :classic_tongue:

 

It's great when the bulb comes on and you can put it all together. I remember my first when the fire dept battalion chief (very experienced with ICS/unified command in So Cal wildfires) I was working with was of tremendous help in letting me see the big picture. Then, after that first one, it all sorta comes and flows together

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8 minutes ago, tert333 said:

Luckily, the world is full of compassionate people

 

Not as many as I would hope.

 

"The Zaandam and Rotterdam were first turned away from Chile, then Peru, Ecuador, Panama, Colombia and Mexico. Other places that wouldn’t help: Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Martinique, Guadalupe Island and Barbados."

 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-broward-county-holland-america-commission-20200331-46igvfqlcfactby4yoqcehpqni-story.html

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"Mayor Dale Holness said after Tuesday’s meeting that there will be further discussion with county staff through the night and through tomorrow and then we’ll go from there.  He said until the unified command has a plan that will protect the people of Broward County we will not allow the ship to dock”.

 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-broward-county-holland-america-commission-20200331-46igvfqlcfactby4yoqcehpqni-story.html

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18 minutes ago, Mark_T said:

 

With the greatest of respect, I think you may have this the wrong way around.

 

If the protestations about the hospitals being full and overloaded are correct and valid as a reason for not wanting the ships to dock, it would seem that the ones in danger are the vast majority on the ships, who are, and remain healthy and uninfected.

 

It would seem that docking into a port surrounded by poorly controlled ,significant infection risks, poses a threat to them, so I hope that whatever plan is enacted properly recognises the risk to their health and protects them from that until they are able to leave the area completely. 

 

All of these people want to get home safely, lets all try to support whatever it takes to make that happen...

Worth repeating.

Thank you Mark_T

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3 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

Yes, you are correct regarding state Sunshine laws and the commissioners, but there is nothing preventing the feds, such as the USCG Capt of the Port, discussing certain logistics with Carnival Corp, CBP, the CDC, etc.  The USCG's operational procedures, like HAL's security procedures, are not for public discussions and are therefore exempt from Sunshine laws.  They fall under Trade Secret protection, and preservation of law enforcement safety. 

 

In fact, the Sheriff just made reference to conversations with CBP.  That, as well, is exempt from Sunshine laws due to it being LE procedures. 

Agree Aquahound.  And I would add, that because of the Florida Sunshine Laws, two (or more) Broward County Commissioners cannot discuss today's agenda item between now and their next publicly announced meeting (Thursday morning?).

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31 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

It's great when the bulb comes on and you can put it all together. I remember my first when the fire dept battalion chief (very experienced with ICS/unified command in So Cal wildfires) I was working with was of tremendous help in letting me see the big picture. Then, after that first one, it all sorta comes and flows together

 

Training is the enemy of panic.

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7 hours ago, gfh77665 said:

What solution has Orlando Ashford, president of Holland America offered anyone?? Has HAL offered to pay for ALL treatement and care costs involved for whoever takes them? I understand the majority on board are foriegn nationals, is this true? If so, has the countries of origin offered to take their people back, or at least pay ALL treatement and care costs involved for whoever takes them? 

 

Well given how the Westerdam was handled I'd say yes, they are paying for all the costs involved in getting them home and treatment-quarantine costs if they have to stay. Every cruise ship that has been in the media dealing with these issues has been paying the associated costs. Well maybe not after the people have been quarantined on a military base but frankly from what I've seen the cruise lines on the whole have done a good job in a very stressful situations. They have also handled the ships that have had to stop mid cruise or find new ports to disembark better it could reasonably have been expected including refunds for stuff booked outside of their system be it flights or excursions that the airlines or others were refusing to refund or insisted on large cancellation fees. We had 3 cruises scheduled that have been impacted by this mess. Two on Holland's Rotterdam and one on Cunard. We debated long and hard about whether or not to depart on the Rotterdam April 6 in light of everything going on with this virus. That decision was made for us but had we gone I certainly wouldn't have expected Holland to pay for care after I returned home should I have come down with the virus. Getting me back home if I had to disembark someplace or some time other than scheduled, yes, and they have done that with the ships that were stopped in mid cruise and/or diverted. There is every reason they will do the same with Zaandam and Rotterdam whenever they are docked.  Despite being one of those "at risk" people due to medical conditions I'd welcome the passengers to my town were it possible. Simply because they are people in need of a safe harbor and I don't give a rat's behind whether or not they are US citizens or foreign nationals. From reports about the passengers bit over 30% are US citizens, another 25% or so are Canadian. The rest are a mixture of UK, EU and other countries.  Given its sailing dates I doubt there are Chinese onboard as most countries had already stopped people from China entering by early March. Most of the foreign nationals are crew and they would already be covered by the cruise line under their employment contracts.

 

I find the Florida governor's comments extremely distasteful. I know every single time we've taken a ship from Florida we've spent days there before or after the cruise that we didn't need to spend. Sometimes that's at an amusement park, other times it has been down to Key West, taken a drive to other parts of the state, gone to NASA, etc. Well, guess what Mr Governor I sure hope that the cruise lines take a good hard look at your comments and behavior and start home porting more ships outside your state.  I know it will influence how and where I spend my vacation dollars.

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5 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

If they could disembark the passengers, they could use passenger cabins to spread out the crew. 

 

That is what has been done on other ships. I read there were lotteries amongst the crew for who got suites and balconies.

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I am still struggling with majority of people on this post think Florida is responsible and has to accept the Zaandam ship.    Florida is dealing with enough problems and the fact that other ships keeping showing up with covid passengers is not helping.     There are other ports such as Galveston that can handle this disembarkment and sending the passengers home to their appropriate countries.    Do we have any idea how many US passengers remain on the Zaandam?    What port is accepting Rotterdam that is hopefully without any covid patients?    Excuse me, but I understand that we need to take care of human soles but does it have to be florida to handle?     Time to find another plan with least amount of resistance. 

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2 hours ago, dockman said:

 

It seems to me that  a hearing such as this would start off with the premise ..."there are people in distress off of our coast, some are americans, some are not....but we as Floridians will come together and we will formulate a plan to help these people....we as Floridians have been helped get through hurricane disasters time and time again and it is now our turn to help our fellow human beings".

 
 
We Floridians are blessed with living in one of the best states in one of the richest countries in the world. 
 
Let's not see a "man overboard" and sit and argue about how or why he got there, where he is from, whether we might get sued, paid,reelected, praised or criticized.  Throw the man a life buoy. It is the American thing to do.  It is the right thing to do.
 
                                     Or as JFK said  “For of those to whom much is given much is required.” 
  
 

We have fought and died for what is right. They will do the right thing. 

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Wait so Florida benefits to the tune of Billions of Dollars from the cruise lines and now they don’t want to do the Right thing and save people turned away from every port they have attempted to dock  at for over 2 weeks. While 4 passengers have died waiting for Any humanitarian aid? 
Do I understand that correctly? Just wanted to make sure.... 

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13 minutes ago, cdwise said:

 

Well given how the Westerdam was handled I'd say yes, they are paying for all the costs involved in getting them home and treatment-quarantine costs if they have to stay. Every cruise ship that has been in the media dealing with these issues has been paying the associated costs. Well maybe not after the people have been quarantined on a military base but frankly from what I've seen the cruise lines on the whole have done a good job in a very stressful situations. They have also handled the ships that have had to stop mid cruise or find new ports to disembark better it could reasonably have been expected including refunds for stuff booked outside of their system be it flights or excursions that the airlines or others were refusing to refund or insisted on large cancellation fees. We had 3 cruises scheduled that have been impacted by this mess. Two on Holland's Rotterdam and one on Cunard. We debated long and hard about whether or not to depart on the Rotterdam April 6 in light of everything going on with this virus. That decision was made for us but had we gone I certainly wouldn't have expected Holland to pay for care after I returned home should I have come down with the virus. Getting me back home if I had to disembark someplace or some time other than scheduled, yes, and they have done that with the ships that were stopped in mid cruise and/or diverted. There is every reason they will do the same with Zaandam and Rotterdam whenever they are docked.  Despite being one of those "at risk" people due to medical conditions I'd welcome the passengers to my town were it possible. Simply because they are people in need of a safe harbor and I don't give a rat's behind whether or not they are US citizens or foreign nationals. From reports about the passengers bit over 30% are US citizens, another 25% or so are Canadian. The rest are a mixture of UK, EU and other countries.  Given its sailing dates I doubt there are Chinese onboard as most countries had already stopped people from China entering by early March. Most of the foreign nationals are crew and they would already be covered by the cruise line under their employment contracts.

 

I find the Florida governor's comments extremely distasteful. I know every single time we've taken a ship from Florida we've spent days there before or after the cruise that we didn't need to spend. Sometimes that's at an amusement park, other times it has been down to Key West, taken a drive to other parts of the state, gone to NASA, etc. Well, guess what Mr Governor I sure hope that the cruise lines take a good hard look at your comments and behavior and start home porting more ships outside your state.  I know it will influence how and where I spend my vacation dollars.

Excuse me but why are you blaming Florida.  Look at all the other countries saying "NO"  - how many in South America? Mexico? Caribbean islands, just about every port in Europe, etc etc - will you stop going there because they said no to ships sailing with ill passengers.  There are other states and ports in the US.    Florida has enough ships showing up with problems.  I think HAL needs to find another state / port such as Galveston, TX or military ports that will be able to handle getting the healthy passengers back home.     

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President Trump, at a new conference just now:

"I'm going to talk with the Governor of Florida next.

Can't have ghost ships floating around like that one in Asia a month ago

People are dying on these ships....or have died.

I'm going to do what's right for humanity."

 

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This feels like the moment for levelling up to the sort of response we'd all want to have were we in the position of the passengers and crew on these ships, not joining the rush to the bottom of the humanitarian league table...

 

Let's give Florida the chance to do the right thing and expedite the return home (.. and out of Florida for the most part) of all those healthy people onboard those ships and to facilitate the care and return via whatever means is appropriate of those who are suffering and unwell right now.

 

Too many days that should have been spent planning have already been lost to debate and argument, and for some on those ships there aren't too many more days left, if they can't get to the care that a few are certainly in need of... 

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5 minutes ago, sansterre said:

President Trump, at a new conference just now:

"I'm going to talk with the Governor of Florida next.

Can't have ghost ships floating around like that one in Asia a month ago

People are dying on these ships....or have died.

I'm going to do what's right for humanity."

 

That was in response to a request for comments about the 2 ships coming into Ft. Lauderdale.

I think this is very very good news for the stance that our Governor will take and might also allay any concerns that the Broward Commissioner might still have.

Edited by sansterre
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8 minutes ago, sansterre said:

President Trump, at a new conference just now:

"I'm going to talk with the Governor of Florida next.

Can't have ghost ships floating around like that one in Asia a month ago

People are dying on these ships....or have died.

I'm going to do what's right for  humanity"

Amen

Edited by hcat
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1 hour ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

It's great when the bulb comes on and you can put it all together. I remember my first when the fire dept battalion chief (very experienced with ICS/unified command in So Cal wildfires) I was working with was of tremendous help in letting me see the big picture. Then, after that first one, it all sorta comes and flows together

And having worked with both LE and Fire I can say that Fire is better at ICS.  LE are trained to work alone and Fire never works alone.

 

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13 minutes ago, Sunshine3601 said:

Excuse me but why are you blaming Florida.  Look at all the other countries saying "NO"  - how many in South America? Mexico? Caribbean islands, just about every port in Europe, etc etc - will you stop going there because they said no to ships sailing with ill passengers.  There are other states and ports in the US.    Florida has enough ships showing up with problems.  I think HAL needs to find another state / port such as Galveston, TX or military ports that will be able to handle getting the healthy passengers back home.     

 As Florida is the home for many Holland ships and it was due to dock there in April at the end of a circuit that departed from there earlier in the year. Florida has actively lobbied for cruise ships to depart and return so that they can benefit from the tourist dollars. So yes, they should accept the ship back. You can't accept the benefits without also accepting the risks. 50% of the cruises we've taken have either started and/or ended in Ft Lauderdale or Miami. Had the ship been scheduled to dock in Galveston I would also expect Galveston to accept it as well even though they shut down their beaches and hotels before spring breakers partied on the beaches.There are risks as well as benefits to being a major cruise port. There is no large city in the US that isn't experiencing a large number of virus cases that are growing daily.  Let the passengers be tested. Those that aren't positive send home. Those that are, quarantine either on or off the ships but get the those who aren't away from the ship. Frankly, I'd be less worried about those without symptoms getting off the ship and going home than I would be about people flying in or driving in from other areas. At least these folks are being checked before departing unlike those flying arriving via other methods of transport. As for those other countries, I'm not a citizen of those countries and never intend to be. FWIW, there are other ships returning to non-US destinations and I would expect that they are also accepted into the port that was to be their final destination whether it is in the UK, EU, Australia or someplace else. Note, several of the ships have disembarked the majority of their passengers leaving only those who for whatever reason cannot fly. https://kvia.com/lifestyle/entertainment/2020/03/31/cruise-ships-are-still-scrambling-for-safe-harbor/

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12 minutes ago, ksmaxey said:

And having worked with both LE and Fire I can say that Fire is better at ICS.  LE are trained to work alone and Fire never works alone.

 

 

In general, I agree with you.  Fire is much better situated at rescue and coordination, and they tend to have a broader view.  However, things change at the federal level.  Federal LE agencies are much better suited.  Having been both local and federal LE, I know the feds are faaaar better trained at ICS and unified commands.  

 

20 minutes ago, mamaofami said:


So if other countries do the wrong thing, America should follow. Shame on Florida for not giving these people help. I’ll never cruise from Ft. Lauderdale again.

 

I think it's really unfair to pile on Ft. Lauderdale like this.  I've yet to see another US city stand up and offer their port to these ships and I guarantee if any other port was in HAL's cross hairs, the local officials would have these exact same debates.  

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6 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I did not hear our President's statement.  I hope it is accurate.

 

If so, this is another excellent indication in the last 1-2 days that the 45th President of the United States is finally listening to experts rather than his gut as he makes his decisions.

I heard him, too.  Just now, on CNN.

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38 minutes ago, ksmaxey said:

And having worked with both LE and Fire I can say that Fire is better at ICS.  LE are trained to work alone and Fire never works alone.

 

 

And that's because the fire dudes use ICS far more on a regular basis compared to the PD. FD incident commanders use ICS on structure fires, i.e. fire attack, staging, safety, medical, etc., whereas the PD uses it more on large operations which are not that "regular." In my own experience, in directing and coordinating large public events such as armed forces day parades, Fourth of July celebrations, etc., and not so much at more frequent law enforcement incidents such as perimeter searches for outstanding suspects, shooting situations, etc.

Edited by Copper10-8
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1 hour ago, sansterre said:

President Trump, at a new conference just now:

"I'm going to talk with the Governor of Florida next.

Can't have ghost ships floating around like that one in Asia a month ago

People are dying on these ships....or have died.

I'm going to do what's right for humanity."

 

 

Yes...I heard the press conference, too, and it sounded very hopeful for Zaandam.  

The Covid-19 task force is sounding more cohesive and on the same page.  As would be expected when working on a monumental problem closely with a team.  I felt comforted that Zaandam will be taken care of.

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  • CCHelp changed the title to Zaandam and Rotterdam Situation (merged topics starting March 22, 2020)
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