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roger001

NCL Some Hope...Maybe

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Something going on out there good.  NCL stock is up 61% since opening today...or $6 at the moment.  Other cruise lines doing equally good.  

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8 minutes ago, roger001 said:

Something going on out there good.  NCL stock is up 61% since opening today...or $6 at the moment.  Other cruise lines doing equally good.  

 

 

Pretty much all stocks are up a significant amount today on the news of a possible Congressional "rescue package".  Nice to see but in my amateur opinion there is still a lot of downside in the market.

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I'm a little frustrated that the cruise industry flags their ships in foreign countries to bypass taxes, labor laws, etc from the US but here they are getting my tax money instead of it going in my pocket where it should.

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1 minute ago, esm54687 said:

I'm a little frustrated that the cruise industry flags their ships in foreign countries to bypass taxes, labor laws, etc from the US but here they are getting my tax money instead of it going in my pocket where it should.

I mean they're still paying hundreds of millions in port fees.  I don't fully disagree but if the US govt wasn't trying to screw them on the front end they'd be more willing to set up shop in the country. 

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4 minutes ago, cartman3132 said:

I mean they're still paying hundreds of millions in port fees.  I don't fully disagree but if the US govt wasn't trying to screw them on the front end they'd be more willing to set up shop in the country. 

Sorry.... it is purely a business move and based on their decision they should receive 0 of my tax money....give the bailout money to US companies that employee US citizens.....    it is US money after all. 

 

In fact: Norwegian said flat out in its most recent annual filing that under “current Bermuda law,” where it’s incorporated, the company is “not subject to tax on income and capital gains.” In fact, it recorded a net tax benefit in 2019

 

 

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12 minutes ago, esm54687 said:

I'm a little frustrated that the cruise industry flags their ships in foreign countries to bypass taxes, labor laws, etc from the US but here they are getting my tax money instead of it going in my pocket where it should.

 

 

ESM, where are you seeing that?   As far as I know the government hasn't given anything to anyone yet..

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33 minutes ago, cartman3132 said:

I mean they're still paying hundreds of millions in port fees.  I don't fully disagree but if the US govt wasn't trying to screw them on the front end they'd be more willing to set up shop in the country. 

How is the US government trying to "screw them on the front end"?

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37 minutes ago, esm54687 said:

I'm a little frustrated that the cruise industry flags their ships in foreign countries to bypass taxes, labor laws, etc from the US but here they are getting my tax money instead of it going in my pocket where it should.

Haven't seen any indication that any US government money is going to the cruise lines.  There has been talk about "not letting the industry go under", but that is a far cry from giving them any money, which the House would have to approve.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, cartman3132 said:

I mean they're still paying hundreds of millions in port fees.  I don't fully disagree but if the US govt wasn't trying to screw them on the front end they'd be more willing to set up shop in the country. 

 

 

I was always under the impression that it was us cruisers who paid the port fees.  Do the cruise lines pay extra above and beyond what they charge the passengers for port fees?

Edited by ColeThornton

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, esm54687 said:

I'm a little frustrated that the cruise industry flags their ships in foreign countries to bypass taxes, labor laws, etc from the US but here they are getting my tax money instead of it going in my pocket where it should.

Chenkp75 please correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding that these ships can't be flagged in the US even if they wanted to because they were not built in the US. To take this one step further I am not sure we have a ship yard in the US that could build a cruise ship. 

Also let's be real about the labor onboard the ships, if it was US flagged and had to use US crew members the cost of a cruise would increase significantly and to be honest the level of service would probably suffer. Then what would we all be complaining about?

I seem to remember back when the federal judge was threatening to ban all of CCL's ships from US ports everyone was saying it would happen because of how much damage it would do to the economy.

 

 

Edited by phillyguy31

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, KSSS2013 said:

 

 Doing a wireless survey while posting? 🙂

 

Can't figure out how to delete it

Fixed it can you please delete it from your post?

Edited by phillyguy31

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54 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

 

 

ESM, where are you seeing that?   As far as I know the government hasn't given anything to anyone yet..

My statement was based on communication our elected officials are having to bail out airlines, cruise lines, hotels, etc.    Until the bailout is signed no one knows what exactly is being "bailed out". 

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3 minutes ago, esm54687 said:

My statement was based on communication our elected officials are having to bail out airlines, cruise lines, hotels, etc.    Until the bailout is signed no one knows what exactly is being "bailed out". 

 

 I know the president did specifically call out assistance to the cruise lines, but there was no specifics laid out yet.

 

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4 minutes ago, KSSS2013 said:

 

 I know the president did specifically call out assistance to the cruise lines, but there was no specifics laid out yet.

 

correct... that's what I said

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23 minutes ago, esm54687 said:

correct... that's what I said

 

 I gave a specific example since you used broad terms. That way someone could look it up if they wanted more specifics on what the president had said. It was a clarification of your broad statment.

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1 hour ago, esm54687 said:

I'm a little frustrated that the cruise industry flags their ships in foreign countries to bypass taxes, labor laws, etc from the US but here they are getting my tax money instead of it going in my pocket where it should.

The only way I wouldn't object to some sort of relief is if the lines took page out of Carnivals playbook and allowed their ships to be used as hospitals.

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1 hour ago, phillyguy31 said:

 

Chenkp75 please correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding that these ships can't be flagged in the US even if they wanted to because they were not built in the US. To take this one step further I am not sure we have a ship yard in the US that could build a cruise ship. 

Also let's be real about the labor onboard the ships, if it was US flagged and had to use US crew members the cost of a cruise would increase significantly and to be honest the level of service would probably suffer. Then what would we all be complaining about?

I seem to remember back when the federal judge was threatening to ban all of CCL's ships from US ports everyone was saying it would happen because of how much damage it would do to the economy.

 

 

To be PVSA compliant, meaning the ship could carry passengers from one US port to another without going to a foreign port, the ship would have to be built in the US.  To continue doing the cruises that they currently do, the ships could just as easily be flagged into the US, but they don't want to, it just is simple economics.  As you say, labor costs would increase, but that is only the tip of the iceberg with regards to cost to meet US flag regulations.

 

While a short term ban of Carnival ships, or the short to medium term loss of cruising revenue due to cruise line restructuring (that's what it would be, not bankruptcy) to tourist economies like Florida and Alaska would be severe, there is nothing that says those economies would not recover, taking advantage of other streams of tourist revenue.

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Posted (edited)

The stock market in general is up because of the potential stimulus passage.

 

NCL, in particular, seems to be in the nether regions operationally.

 

Got luggage tags today for my cancelled cruise that was supposed to sail 3/28.  Can't even imagine what it cost to send out letters and luggage tags plus mailing costs for 1,000s of passengers.  Add to that, the 90 day wait period for refunds.  The huge price rise on future cruises.

 

It's like DelRio has totally lost control of the company.  I can't see how they will get things moving in the right direction after this is over.  He just doesn't seem to know how, nor how to get a handle on the company.

Edited by graphicguy

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, NoobCroozer said:

The only way I wouldn't object to some sort of relief is if the lines took page out of Carnivals playbook and allowed their ships to be used as hospitals.

First, using cruise ships as hospitals is not practical for a variety of reasons. There's a lengthy thread on the "Ask a Cruise Question" board discussing it. Regardless, who said they would allow the ships to be used at no cost? After Hurricane Katrina Carnival got paid a pretty  penny to allow a ships to be used as hotels for evacuees and displaced city workers. 

 

So...I view this offer as a bogus PR stunt by Carnival...perhaps as a way to take the focus off the fact that it was Carnival Corp. ships from Princess, Holland America and Costa that were floating Covid-19 hot spots in no small part due to management being totally clueless about how to respond to a contagious disease outbreak.

Edited by njhorseman

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1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

To be PVSA compliant, meaning the ship could carry passengers from one US port to another without going to a foreign port, the ship would have to be built in the US.  To continue doing the cruises that they currently do, the ships could just as easily be flagged into the US, but they don't want to, it just is simple economics.  As you say, labor costs would increase, but that is only the tip of the iceberg with regards to cost to meet US flag regulations.

 

While a short term ban of Carnival ships, or the short to medium term loss of cruising revenue due to cruise line restructuring (that's what it would be, not bankruptcy) to tourist economies like Florida and Alaska would be severe, there is nothing that says those economies would not recover, taking advantage of other streams of tourist revenue.

It seems like the major vehicle that the cruise lines use to avoid US taxes is IRS Section 883.  As our resident expert of most things Marine, is this law a major impact outside of the cruise industry (as in exempting money paid by US companies to shipping firms from being taxed in the US)?

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1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

The stock market in general is up because of the potential stimulus passage.

 

NCL, in particular, seems to be in the nether regions operationally.

 

Got luggage tags today for my cancelled cruise that was supposed to sail 3/28.  Can't even imagine what it cost to send out letters and luggage tags plus mailing costs for 1,000s of passengers.  Add to that, the 90 day wait period for refunds.  The huge price rise on future cruises.

 

It's like DelRio has totally lost control of the company.  I can't see how they will get things moving in the right direction after this is over.  He just doesn't seem to know how, nor how to get a handle on the company.

The cruise lines, just like the airlines, need to pretty much operate as if everything will resume as soon as possible.  They have to delay all cash outflow as long as possible. Everything that is going on, failure to cancel cruises that any reasonable person knows is not going to sail, trying to use FCC's as credits, instead of cash is all to reduce cash burn as much as possible.  Potentially even trying to get people to sign up for deals on short terms cruises, even though they most likely won't sail.

 

It is not a lack of control, it is planned delays.

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1 hour ago, npcl said:

It seems like the major vehicle that the cruise lines use to avoid US taxes is IRS Section 883.  As our resident expert of most things Marine, is this law a major impact outside of the cruise industry (as in exempting money paid by US companies to shipping firms from being taxed in the US)?

You are one up on me, finding the IRS section that applies, but yes.  I'm not sure about your question of "money paid by US companies to shipping firms", but I'll take a stab.  Any company that operates ships, and that company is not incorporated in the US, is exempt from US taxation (subject to the blah, blah in the IRS code, which is pretty irrelevant, as most nations don't tax foreign corporations), so yes, the vast majority of ships and the shipping companies that own them, are exempt from US taxes, and these foreign flag ships bring in the vast majority of goods purchased in the US.  I'm still not sure about what you are asking about with "money paid by a US company".  Regardless of where that foreign corporation gets its revenue from, it is not subject to US taxes.

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Ok, let me see if I get this right.  People are upset because the cruise line is registered in another country so they don't have to pay high taxes but it's ok for American companies to have most of their money overseas to avoid paying taxes.  Don't the cruise lines employ people in their offices in the US?  Every time I see a cruise ship pull in there are longshoremen who load and unload the ship. Aren't these about 15 trucks there unloading shipments of food, booze, etc that was purchased from American companies? How many people fly to a cruise destination? How about hotel rooms, parking fees, entertainment the night before, post cruising vacations? My point is if the cruise lines are allowed to fail, a lot of other people will also suffer.  Millions of people cruise each year and spend their money willingly for relaxation and entertainment. If the government gives a little to the cruise lines to help them in this time of turmoil I don't have a problem with that but before you pre judge the program, lets wait to see what happens. 

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1 hour ago, npcl said:

The cruise lines, just like the airlines, need to pretty much operate as if everything will resume as soon as possible.  They have to delay all cash outflow as long as possible. Everything that is going on, failure to cancel cruises that any reasonable person knows is not going to sail, trying to use FCC's as credits, instead of cash is all to reduce cash burn as much as possible.  Potentially even trying to get people to sign up for deals on short terms cruises, even though they most likely won't sail.

 

It is not a lack of control, it is planned delays.

I would think for their viability, they need to get us back on their ships.  Raising prices, delaying refunds, raising fares (a lot), etc IS NOT going to get us back on their ships.  Their choice, but NCL is running a distant 3rd to Carnival and Royal.  Suffice to say, sounds like I'm one of many who they could have kept in the fold.  They chose not to.

 

Again, most of NCL's recent problems started when Del Rio took over.  Yes, you can point to this crisis as beyond his control, but the measure of a company isn't when things are going good.  It's how they handle the things when challenges (inevitably) occur.

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