Jump to content

Whats happening? SB refunds and payments Covid19


Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, zelker said:

Then she also told me that if I don't see credits for the FCDs and cancelled cruise on our credit card after 60 days have expired from the date they were cancelled to call them and ask them to expedite the refund. 

Is that 60 days total or 60 business days? - a big difference.

Edited by Paulchili
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Paulchili said:

Is that 60 days total or 60 business days? - a big difference.

 

It is 60 calendar days, from the date of cancellation, as SB also quoted the date to my TA.

 

I shall post as soon as mine comes through, due 'by 9th May'.

Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Rambo_Trout said:

 

It is 60 calendar days, from the date of cancellation, as SB also quoted the date to my TA.

 

I shall post as soon as mine comes through, due 'by 9th May'.

Thank you.

In that case mine is April 27th - coming up soon.

They'll get a call - the question is whether they will answer it.

The last couple of times I had to leave a message.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Paulchili said:

Thank you.

In that case mine is April 27th - coming up soon.

They'll get a call - the question is whether they will answer it.

The last couple of times I had to leave a message.

 

The few times I've called Seabourn (and HAL) in the last 3 or so weeks, I've never been on hold for more than a couple minutes.

 

Please post back here after the 27th to let us know how things went - whether you received whatever it is you're waiting for or whether you had to follow-up with Seabourn and what they told you the next step was.

 

Thx.

Edited by zelker
Link to post
Share on other sites

I got separate emails yesterday from SB for each of the days I had reservations at the Thomas Keller restaurant informing me that those reservations had been canceled.  Thank goodness that was a priority for getting addressed.

Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, zelker said:

 

The few times I've called Seabourn (and HAL) in the last 3 or so weeks, I've never been on hold for more than a couple minutes.

 

Please post back here after the 27th to let us know how things went - whether you received whatever it is you're waiting for or whether you had to follow-up with Seabourn and what they told you the next step was.

 

Thx.

Will do.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I called yesterday and was told it would be 60-90 days from when you let them know what your choice was (full refund or FCC). They wouldn’t even take my reservation number and said at this time they couldn’t check on an individual booking until nearer 60 days whether for cruise or excursion refund. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, suewheldon said:

I called yesterday and was told it would be 60-90 days from when you let them know what your choice was (full refund or FCC). They wouldn’t even take my reservation number and said at this time they couldn’t check on an individual booking until nearer 60 days whether for cruise or excursion refund. 

It just shows you the inconsistency of their response that is so perturbing.

I cancelled my cruise on 2/27 and got the excursions refunded on March 1 - that's just a few days later. I am still waiting for my refund of taxes. What is the difference between these two refunds?

I think people would accept delays better if the information given out and refunds were processed with more consistency rather than this total randomness. It's the uncertainty that people object to IMO.

Edited by Paulchili
Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. SLSD was curious and did a few minutes of research on the current financial situation of Carnival (and its subsidiaries).  He typed out a short summary:

 

April 8, 2020, Carnival Corp. filed an 8-K with the SEC reporting:
 
On April 8, 2020, Carnival . . . closed its . . . private offering (the “Notes Offering”) of $4.00 billion . . . of its 11.500% First-Priority Senior Secured Notes due 2023 (the “Secured Notes”). . . . 

The Secured Notes mature on April 1, 2023 . . . .  Cash interest on the Secured Notes will accrue from April 8, 2020 and is payable semi-annually in arrears on April 1 and October 1 of each year, beginning on October 1, 2020, at a rate of 11.500% per year.

The Secured Notes are fully and unconditionally guaranteed . . . on a first-priority senior secured basis by Carnival plc and certain of Carnival Corporation’s and Carnival plc’s subsidiaries that own or operate the Company’s vessels and material intellectual property. . . .

The Secured Notes and the related guarantees are secured by first-priority security interests in . . .  (i) shares of capital stock of each subsidiary guarantor, subject to customary limitations; (ii) 86 of the vessels currently owned or operated by Carnival Corporation, Carnival plc and the other guarantors . . . ; (iii) the material intellectual property currently owned or controlled by Carnival Corporation, Carnival plc and the other guarantors; (iv) . . . inventory, trade receivables, intangibles, computer software and casino equipment, in each case associated with the vessels being mortgaged; and (v) other assets . . . (collectively, the “Collateral”), subject to permitted liens . . . ."
 
The contemporaneous press release says that its 2023 noteholders elected to advance another $62MM, and "The Corporation expects to use the net proceeds from the offering of the Secured Notes and the offering of the Convertible Notes for general corporate purposes."
 
This is a comprehensive debt financing to get the company two years down the road. This is new money, so the company should have the financial ability to make refunds. But expect that the CFO will continue to husband cash due to all the uncertainties.
 
See: 
 
 
 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, SLSD said:

Mr. SLSD was curious and did a few minutes of research on the current financial situation of Carnival (and its subsidiaries).  He typed out a short summary:

 

April 8, 2020, Carnival Corp. filed an 8-K with the SEC reporting:
 
On April 8, 2020, Carnival . . . closed its . . . private offering (the “Notes Offering”) of $4.00 billion . . . of its 11.500% First-Priority Senior Secured Notes due 2023 (the “Secured Notes”). . . . 

The Secured Notes mature on April 1, 2023 . . . .  Cash interest on the Secured Notes will accrue from April 8, 2020 and is payable semi-annually in arrears on April 1 and October 1 of each year, beginning on October 1, 2020, at a rate of 11.500% per year.

The Secured Notes are fully and unconditionally guaranteed . . . on a first-priority senior secured basis by Carnival plc and certain of Carnival Corporation’s and Carnival plc’s subsidiaries that own or operate the Company’s vessels and material intellectual property. . . .

The Secured Notes and the related guarantees are secured by first-priority security interests in . . .  (i) shares of capital stock of each subsidiary guarantor, subject to customary limitations; (ii) 86 of the vessels currently owned or operated by Carnival Corporation, Carnival plc and the other guarantors . . . ; (iii) the material intellectual property currently owned or controlled by Carnival Corporation, Carnival plc and the other guarantors; (iv) . . . inventory, trade receivables, intangibles, computer software and casino equipment, in each case associated with the vessels being mortgaged; and (v) other assets . . . (collectively, the “Collateral”), subject to permitted liens . . . ."
 
The contemporaneous press release says that its 2023 noteholders elected to advance another $62MM, and "The Corporation expects to use the net proceeds from the offering of the Secured Notes and the offering of the Convertible Notes for general corporate purposes."
 
This is a comprehensive debt financing to get the company two years down the road. This is new money, so the company should have the financial ability to make refunds. But expect that the CFO will continue to husband cash due to all the uncertainties.
 
See: 
 
 
 

 

Kudos to Mr. SLSD.  He's my guy.  Stick with him!

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SLSD said:

This is a comprehensive debt financing to get the company two years down the road. This is new money, so the company should have the financial ability to make refunds. But expect that the CFO will continue to husband cash due to all the uncertainties.

I find some contradictions in this statement - will we or will we not get our refunds (because of "CFO's continued husbanding cash due to all uncertainties")? What does the husbanding of cash actually mean and how does it work?

Edited by Paulchili
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Paulchili said:

I find some contradictions in this statement - will we or will we not get our refunds (because of "CFO's continued husbanding cash due to all uncertainties")? What does the husbanding of cash actually mean and how does it work?

It is unknown if people will get the refunds or not.  The point Mr. SLSD is making that is that technically Carnival DOES have the cash available to make the refunds.  Whether or not they will make the refunds in a timely manner is unknown.  Husbanding of cash refers to holding onto every possible dollar in a time of uncertainty and crisis.  How does it work?  The corporation holds onto available cash instead of paying it out in the form of refunds--or anything else it might owe.  Or, they decide to delay payments as long as possible.   In other words, having the financial ability to make refunds does not necessarily mean that they will be made at the time promised--or at any time.  Mr. SLSD told me that the information he read revealed that this new loan was made with the possibility of bankruptcy in mind.  I'll ask him for more details on that later. 

 

By the way, this appears to be a new lender or lenders for Carnival.  Previously,  Carnival had a loan of several hundred million from the Bank of America.  It appears that the Bank of America loan has been taken out by this new loan.  

 

Edited by SLSD
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SLSD said:

In other words, having the financial ability to make refunds does not necessarily mean that they will be made at the time promised--or at any time.  Mr. SLSD told me that the information he read revealed that this new loan was made with the possibility of bankruptcy in mind.  I'll ask him for more details on that later. 

Thank you - that is what I thought.

It now makes more sense than ever before to dispute this charge with the CC company. SB will have 30 days to answer or the CC will cover my charge. Hopefully they will not declare bankruptcy before then.

Edited by Paulchili
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Paulchili said:

Thank you - that is what I thought.

It now makes more sense than ever before to dispute this charge with the CC company. SB will have 30 days to answer or the CC will cover my charge. Hopefully they will not declare bankruptcy before then.

Paul, I'm a great proponent of using the dispute process but, only when necessary and after trying other ways.  I too am waiting for FCC and cash refund from Seabourn.  My TA contacted them this week and gave me a timeline they were given so have a kind of promise from Seabourn.  I have thought about disputing to get the temp credit on my acount but, really don't have a case and the credit card company needs a valid basis in order to accept the dispute and send on the way to Seabourn.

 

Concerned that a false claim might affect a future valid one as well.  And your 30 days is really 60 days and always have recourse with credit card company if a company goes bankrupt.  Plus lots of people disputing will affect everyone's rebates as the cruise line will move the dispute in front of real claims for money delaying everyone.  Also some recent reading gives me hope that Seabourn (Carnival) has enough money for the current claims.  If the hold does much longer the ones down the line may be in trouble.

 

So , urge you to be patient (patience is not a virtue of me yet I'm waiting)    Really thinking filing a dispute now will be a bad idea.  Good luck in any case.

 

DAve

Link to post
Share on other sites

Dave I hear you, but...

My claim was filed on Feb 27th - had to have been one of the very earliest of claims long before the offices of SB became overwhelmed with lots of later cancellations and requests for refunds.

Also, when I called about 3 weeks ago I was told that my claim was being "expedited" and yet I have nothing.

I was never told either by email or in person that it may take 90 days. As I had mentioned, in those days my excursions were refunded in 3 or 4 days as they were not overwhelmed. What happened to my tax refund? Did it fall between the cracks somewhere?

I am running out of patience.

PS While I hope SB will get through this crisis,  I certainly do not have any assurances that SB will not declare Chapt 11 or some other form of bankruptcy.

Edited by Paulchili
Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. SLSD did a bit more research (at my request this time) and discovered that The Bank of America (joined by a consortium of banks)  loan to Carnival was not taken out after all.  It is still on the books. It appears to be an unsecured note, which denotes that at the time of the loan, the banks had confidence in Carnival.   The total of that note is 3 Billion dollars.  

 

Here's his latest findings and comments to me:

Mrs. SLSD, at your request I reviewed all the post-April 1 SEC filings by Carnival Corp. plus earlier filings that describe the revolver, regarding the indebtednesses of Carnival and here is what I see:

 

On April 2, Carnival Corp. announced it was seeking to raise $6B in stock and debt. Its Form 10-Q, filed April 3, said:

(1) “On March 13, 2020, we fully drew down our $3.0 billion . . . revolving credit facility . . . . further actions to improve our liquidity, include[e] capital expenditure and operating expense reductions, suspending dividend payments . M. . stock of Carnival . . . and pursuing additional financing. . . . we have concluded that we will be able to generate sufficient liquidity to satisfy our obligations and remain in compliance with our existing debt covenants for the next twelve months prior to giving effect to any additional financing that may occur.”

-and-

(2) “On April 1, 2020, we announced the pricing of the private offerings of $4.0 billion first-priority senior secured notes due 2023 (“Secured Notes”) and $1.75 billion senior convertible notes due 2023 ($2.0125 billion if the initial purchasers exercise their option to purchase additional notes) (“Convertible Notes”), and a public offering of $500 million of common stock ($575 million if the underwriters exercise their option to purchase additional shares in full) of Carnival Corporation (“Public Equity Offering”), collectively referred to within this document as the “April 1 financing transactions”. The closings of these offerings are subject to customary conditions and are expected to occur in early April. The net proceeds from the offering of Secured Notes will be deposited in to a segregated escrow account, pending the releases in accordance with certain collateral perfection thresholds.”

 

On the same date, Carnival also filed a supplement to its March 9 prospectus for the public stock offering, informing the offer to be 62,500,000 common shares at $8 per for a total (net) of $485MM.

 

On April 8, in addition to the Form 8-K announcing the $4B private placement of secured notes due 202[3], Carnival filed an 8-K announcing the private placement of another tranche of notes, these as senior unsecured notes: “On April 6, 2020, Carnival . . . closed its . . . private offering (the “Convertible Notes Offering”) to qualified institutional buyers of $1,950 million aggregate principal amount of its 5.75% Convertible Senior Notes due 2023 . . . . The Convertible Notes are convertible . . . into cash, shares of the common stock . . . of Carnival . . . or a combination thereof, at Carnival Corporation’s election. The initial conversion rate . . . is 100 shares of Common Stock per $1,000 principal amount of Convertible Notes, equivalent to . . . $10.00 per share . . . .”

 

The 8-K filed on April 8th, reporting the issuance of the $4B of secured notes due Jan. 1, 2023 in a private placement, merits note: First, that this is “lender-of-last-resort” money is demonstrated by the 11.5% interest rate. Such lenders typically in the past have been either indifferent to being paid in full at maturity or converted, via a restructuring negotiation at some point between now and then, into a very substantial proportion of the ownership of the enterprise. Second, having now pledged every asset to the repayment of the $4B notes, it will be extremely difficult, but not completely impossible, to lay on new and more debt. Such additional debt will have to be unsecured or at least junior in lien priority or junior in priority as unsecured debt (at least ostensibly) to the new $1.75 billion senior convertible notes due 2023. (Of course, prebankruptcy restructuring negotiations among the creditor groups and the debtor, Carnival, could result in variation of the normal priorities.) Third, the multi-bank revolving credit facility is unsecured. As noted above, Carnival drew down the full amount of this facility, $3B  in March 2020. In addition to these new funded debts, there remain outstanding three prior bond issues: 1.625% Senior Notes due 2021, the 1.875% Senior Notes due 2022, and the 1.000% Senior Notes due 2029; per the balance sheet in the latest 10-Q, these three tranches to aggregate about $9B. 

 

In short, the debt portion of Carnival’s “capital stack” is now rather complex, and much larger in aggregate amount.

 

All of these financing activities reflect preparation for surviving the next year or two including a potential downside scenario of Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Management would be subject to criticism if it had failed to make such preparations that include a possibility of a Chapter 11 case (which could be transnational in scope). The 8-K discloses that the $4B was funded into an escrow account at closing and is disbursable to Carnival over time as the taking and perfecting of liens on Carnival assets is serially and actually completed. And Carnival explicitly acknowledges there the possibility of bankruptcy in the April 8th 8-K: “IF (emphasis added) there is an event of bankruptcy, insolvency or court protection with respect to Carnival” . . .  [the specific point of that disclosure being that if Carnival files a Chapter 11 case on or before Oct. 8th, the terms of the $4B deal require undisbursed funds in the escrow be repaid to the noteholders].

 

Last, I note that the aggregate booked on the balance sheet for cruise deposits is about $4B.

 

Anyone interested in these matters can and should read the Carnival disclosures in its recent filings with the SEC including the Form 10-K (filed ), the 10-Q (filed ), and the 8-Ks filed throughout this month of April...and keep an eye on them going forward, easily and freely available at:  https://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=Carnival+Corp&owner=exclude&action=getcompany

 

 

 

 

Edited by SLSD
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SLSD said:

Last, I note that the aggregate booked on the balance sheet for cruise deposits is about $4B.

More importantly to me, what is the aggregate for cruise refunds (or is that the same thing)?

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

More importantly to me, what is the aggregate for cruise refunds (or is that the same thing)?

Mr. SLSD says that it is the same thing.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Paulchili said:

Thank you - $4B seems like a lot. Maybe we'll all get what we are waiting for.

Remember Paul, Carnival has over 300 ships so that is about $13.3 M per ship so with say 10 sailing per ship and 1500 passenger per ship comes to approx $888 per person per ship.  Am using made up numbers based on common sense and know lots of thos Carnival ships have very inexpensive prices compared to Seabourn so perhaps a good number.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, rallydave said:

Remember Paul, Carnival has over 300 ships so that is about $13.3 M per ship so with say 10 sailing per ship and 1500 passenger per ship comes to approx $888 per person per ship.  Am using made up numbers based on common sense and know lots of thos Carnival ships have very inexpensive prices compared to Seabourn so perhaps a good number.

 

I am sure many cruisers on all of their lines chose FCC rather than full refund so it would be more than $888/person?

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

Thank you - $4B seems like a lot. Maybe we'll all get what we are waiting for.

 

16 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

Thank you - $4B seems like a lot. Maybe we'll all get what we are waiting for.

Mr. SLSD says you missed the takeaway.  I think he was being a bit subtle. Carnival has a LOT of debt and  a schedule to pay it back at very high interest.  What happens with refunds will depend on the next few months.  

Edited by SLSD
Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW - Viking river refunded my TWO deposits in 3 days!!!!!! Promise was in 60 days.

I suspect they have a lot more bookings than SB between their river & ocean cruises.

So - IT CAN BE DONE IF WILLING.

Kudos to Viking.

Edited by Paulchili
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Paulchili said:

FWIW - Viking river refunded my TWO deposits in 3 days!!!!!! Promise was in 60 days.

I suspect they have a lot more bookings than SB between their river & ocean cruises.

So - IT CAN BE DONE IF WILLING.

Kudos to Viking.

Yes, the money is there---but as we discussed up thread, the advice they will be given is to husband cash.  The issue is survival and meeting the schedule for paying loans.  I could be wrong, but I think passengers may find themselves being slow played for refunds.  I hope I am wrong!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Forum Jump
    • Categories
      • Forum Assistance
      • Q&A with Chris Prelog, President of Windstar Cruises!
      • Register Now for Cruise Critic Live Special Event: Royal Caribbean
      • New Cruisers
      • Cruise Lines “A – O”
      • Cruise Lines “P – Z”
      • River Cruising
      • ROLL CALLS
      • Digital Photography & Cruise Technology
      • Special Interest Cruising
      • Cruise Discussion Topics
      • UK Cruising
      • Australia & New Zealand Cruisers
      • North American Homeports
      • Ports of Call
      • Cruise Conversations
×
×
  • Create New...