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pianobar

Norwegian....Take notice! A despicable policy.

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We received notice of the cancellation of our May cruise today, obviously not unexpected. As most cruise lines I assume are doing, we were given the choice of a 125% future cruise credit or a "lesser value refund" as they phrase it in their email. Interestingly, they are able to offer the credit option almost immediately (the default) but their customers have to fill in a digital form by a certain future date and then wait at least 3 months for the refund. Really?

 

I note many cruisers on this site defending Norwegian as some sort of a clever marketer attempting to save their company. I think the approach Norwegian is using is, simply put, despicable! This is a time when everyone is fearful and stressed. Many people, including Norwegian's customers, are losing their jobs or laid off. Many of Norwegian's customers saved money for many years to book vacations and, in some cases, to book the dream vacation of a lifetime. Now many of these people are struggling to pay their rents or even buy food. Now Norwegian appropriately cancels their cruise but then says they'll hit the left button on their system and you'll get a cruise credit in a few days.....or......they'll hit the right button on their system and you'll get a refund (aka the cash they may desperately need) but they'll take more than 3 months to give it to you. Despicable. Don't let the defenders of Norwegian's actions fool you into thinking that a credit card refund is more than a simple keystroke of a computer. Despicable.

 

For a company that is likely to eventually receive millions if not billions of dollars in bailout funds from our taxes, how dare you hold on to the $3000 or maybe $4000 or maybe much more of your customers' hard-earned money for more than 3 months when so many others are helping each other out.  Despicable. The small private tour operators we had booked through have already fully refunded our tours, a process that took just a few days (the simple click of a button on their computer). And these small companies are struggling for their very existence. Yet they operate with integrity and realize the money they took is not theirs until they fulfill their promise of a tour. Take notice, Norwegian! That's how you operate a business.

 

We have sailed with several cruise lines in the past. This was to be our first cruise with Norwegian. Other cruise lines may be operating similarly, but my current experience is with Norwegian. I will, with no hesitation, book again with the small tour operators and family-run hotels that have already fully and promptly refunded my money. However, I will never again book a cruise with Norwegian Cruise Lines. Their business model is completely devoid of integrity and compassion at a time when most of us need integrity and compassion the most. Despicable. Shame on you, Norwegian, shame on you.

 

 

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Clearly NCL does not have the cash to make the refunds right now. If they end up in Chapter 11, you will be lucky to get an FCC.

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Posted (edited)

The cruise lines are not getting a dime of bailout money.

I understand the frustration but you must have patience for your refund.  To put it in perspective there still is a cruise ship sailing the globe with dead and sick people on board with nowhere to go.  Crew are sick on docked ships.  People are trapped in other countries and cant make it back to their family.  Port workers are out of work.  Our neighbors and families are losing their jobs.  Some food items are hard to find.

Not flaming you but trying to put things in perspective.  In the current times, it truly is a first world problem that you must wait a few months for a refund on a luxury cruise.  You should be excited and happy you are actually getting a refund.


How's that for a reality check?

Edited by david_sobe

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Posted (edited)

Oh look.....another thread.  The world is circling the drain but my refund isn't coming fast enough.

Edited by ray98

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, pianobar said:

We received notice of the cancellation of our May cruise today, obviously not unexpected. As most cruise lines I assume are doing, we were given the choice of a 125% future cruise credit or a "lesser value refund" as they phrase it in their email. Interestingly, they are able to offer the credit option almost immediately (the default) but their customers have to fill in a digital form by a certain future date and then wait at least 3 months for the refund. Really?

 

 

Are you saying the "lesser value refund" is not a refund for what you paid?  If so, you really need to contact an attorney, because they have to refund you for everything you paid.

 

Also, I believe the US government said no to any bailout money for cruise lines.  Are you implying that Canada is going to bail out the cruise industry with your tax dollars.

Edited by NLH Arizona

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If they cancelled on you just do a charge back on your credit card, saves all the hassle, why give them 90 days interest.. 

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1 hour ago, david_sobe said:

  You should be excited and happy you are actually getting a refund.


How's that for a reality check?

But that's the whole point of NCL's semi-legal and completely unethical plan to keep YOUR money, you most likely will NOT be getting a refund.  In 3 months NCL should be well into Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

 

How's that for a reality check?

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41 minutes ago, Trimone said:

If they cancelled on you just do a charge back on your credit card, saves all the hassle, why give them 90 days interest.. 

From what Ive read this leaves you in a bad standing with them and in a no-go people, only do it if youre sure you wont ever again cruise with ncl...

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Comi.uy said:

From what Ive read this leaves you in a bad standing with them and in a no-go people, only do it if youre sure you wont ever again cruise with ncl...

 

I've seen some speculation that NCL would ban you from cruising if you request a chargeback from an unfulfilled promised refund.  I've not seen any actual data points where this has happened.   Do you have any data points? 

Edited by mianmike

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1 hour ago, pianobar said:

So, you order a product from a company. Just before they were to deliver you the product, they inform you they don't have the product. "We will give you your money back but, gosh darn, we already spent your money so you can't have it until we balance our books in a few months. And that should be ok with you because if we give it to you now, we might not be here down the road, and we're such a good, well-manged company that we know you're going to want to order from us again." 

 

Absurd.

 

Interesting to compare me to a teenager who, whether you agree with her or not, has decided to try to do something she feels is good for her planet instead of playing video games and smoking pot. Yeah, I'm real insulted.

It’s a simple concept. They hold your money. File a Chapter 11. Keep your money. 90 days gives them time to make that decision. 

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6 minutes ago, mianmike said:

 

I've seen some speculation that NCL would ban you from cruising if you request a chargeback from a unfulfilled promised refund.  I've not seen any actual data points where this has happened.   Do you have any data points? 

Not the exact same situation but yes, they can ban you.

https://www.elliott.org/blog/do-not-sail-list-banned-from-cruising/

 

Where people are clouding the issue is what falls as "friendly fraud" and what is a legitimate chargeback because NCL did not deliver the cruise.  So yes, NCL does owe a refund if the cruise is cancelled- I won't get into whether or not they are obligated to give cash or could use FCC like the airlines.  That's above my paygrade.

If you request a chargeback and there is a refund in process, the bank could easily deny your claim.  NCL will be charged a fee, regardless of who wins the case.  If you lose, which is entirely possible because NCL will be able to prove that you made the purchase and offered a refund, you could be out everything.  If they go one step further and ban you, any FCC that they might give you would be unusable (since you are banned).

 

Somebody else posted a link in another discussion to a situation where someone cancelled a vacation purchase and lost the case.  The merchant did refund the money as a goodwill gesture - but had no legal obligation to do so.

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We cannot even file for refunds for the recently cancelled cruises until April 13th right but the credit comes earlier in the month? Right?

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Good grief.  What naive complaints.   Refunds take time and have a more involved process.    People who don’t have a financial back up. Have much bigger problems and a cruise refund is hardly going to make a difference.  

 

Who knows  how long .the refunds will take?     It’s an estimate    

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4 minutes ago, julig22 said:

Not the exact same situation but yes, they can ban you.

https://www.elliott.org/blog/do-not-sail-list-banned-from-cruising/

 

Where people are clouding the issue is what falls as "friendly fraud" and what is a legitimate chargeback because NCL did not deliver the cruise.  So yes, NCL does owe a refund if the cruise is cancelled- I won't get into whether or not they are obligated to give cash or could use FCC like the airlines.  That's above my paygrade.

If you request a chargeback and there is a refund in process, the bank could easily deny your claim.  NCL will be charged a fee, regardless of who wins the case.  If you lose, which is entirely possible because NCL will be able to prove that you made the purchase and offered a refund, you could be out everything.  If they go one step further and ban you, any FCC that they might give you would be unusable (since you are banned).

 

Somebody else posted a link in another discussion to a situation where someone cancelled a vacation purchase and lost the case.  The merchant did refund the money as a goodwill gesture - but had no legal obligation to do so.


Issue:  The refund is failed to be delivered in a reasonable time-frame.  "Delaying" refunds is a common tactic used by nefarious actors who are ripping people off.  (I'm not insinuating NCL is a nefarious actor)  But something credit card company investigators are accustomed to seeing and they generally don't tolerate unreasonable delays.     

 

My thoughts in an example:  Consumer requests chargeback re: cruise was cancelled and cruise date has passed.  Numerous attempts to obtain refund is met with obfuscation and delay.  Credit card company contacts cruise line and is told the cruise line will refund the money sometime after 90 days from date of refund request.  Credit card company says:  "okay you are going to refund the customer," cruise line: "yes we're going to refund the customer."  Credit card company funds your account as your chargeback is legitimate.  (Cruise line agrees you should be refunded only question is timing.) 

 

NCL can ban you for almost anything if they chose.  The question is will they ban you for expediting a refund via a chargeback before NCL is good and ready to release your money.   Looking for data points.   

 

 

    

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23 minutes ago, beerman2 said:

Go back and read your first rant, it was you that mentioned taxes and bailout!


You... you do realize I’m not the same person that you initially replied to... right?

 

Go back and read my posts. You’ll notice I never once mentioned either topics. 
 

I even said in my last comment that I’m not the person you’re replying to so I can’t possibly know why they’d think that. Maybe pay closer attention to who you’re replying to from now on before you continue to dig your hole.

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5 minutes ago, mianmike said:

Credit card company contacts cruise line and is told the cruise line will refund the money sometime after 90 days from date of refund request.  Credit card company says:  "okay you are going to refund the customer," cruise line: "yes we're going to refund the customer."  Credit card company funds your account as your chargeback is legitimate.  (Cruise line agrees you should be refunded only question is timing.)   

I would disagree.  CC company says merchant will refund, closes the case by removing the temporary credit that they put on your account.  Refund will come from NCL, not the CC, as you have a legitimate business relationship with NCL.

 

Good luck on getting data points.  You will get a lot of responses from people who will tell you they got their money back as soon as they filed the complaint - those are temporary credits, not your money back.  Not so sure people will come back in a month or 2 or 3 or more when the case is actually finalized, whatever the outcome.

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4 hours ago, pianobar said:

We received notice of the cancellation of our May cruise today, obviously not unexpected. As most cruise lines I assume are doing, we were given the choice of a 125% future cruise credit or a "lesser value refund" as they phrase it in their email. Interestingly, they are able to offer the credit option almost immediately (the default) but their customers have to fill in a digital form by a certain future date and then wait at least 3 months for the refund. Really?

 

I note many cruisers on this site defending Norwegian as some sort of a clever marketer attempting to save their company. I think the approach Norwegian is using is, simply put, despicable! This is a time when everyone is fearful and stressed. Many people, including Norwegian's customers, are losing their jobs or laid off. Many of Norwegian's customers saved money for many years to book vacations and, in some cases, to book the dream vacation of a lifetime. Now many of these people are struggling to pay their rents or even buy food. Now Norwegian appropriately cancels their cruise but then says they'll hit the left button on their system and you'll get a cruise credit in a few days.....or......they'll hit the right button on their system and you'll get a refund (aka the cash they may desperately need) but they'll take more than 3 months to give it to you. Despicable. Don't let the defenders of Norwegian's actions fool you into thinking that a credit card refund is more than a simple keystroke of a computer. Despicable.

 

For a company that is likely to eventually receive millions if not billions of dollars in bailout funds from our taxes, how dare you hold on to the $3000 or maybe $4000 or maybe much more of your customers' hard-earned money for more than 3 months when so many others are helping each other out.  Despicable. The small private tour operators we had booked through have already fully refunded our tours, a process that took just a few days (the simple click of a button on their computer). And these small companies are struggling for their very existence. Yet they operate with integrity and realize the money they took is not theirs until they fulfill their promise of a tour. Take notice, Norwegian! That's how you operate a business.

 

We have sailed with several cruise lines in the past. This was to be our first cruise with Norwegian. Other cruise lines may be operating similarly, but my current experience is with Norwegian. I will, with no hesitation, book again with the small tour operators and family-run hotels that have already fully and promptly refunded my money. However, I will never again book a cruise with Norwegian Cruise Lines. Their business model is completely devoid of integrity and compassion at a time when most of us need integrity and compassion the most. Despicable. Shame on you, Norwegian, shame on you.

 

 

I agree that sending a refund should be quicker but who knows the challenges they are facing in processing tens of thousands of refunds.  I do have one observation though.  You talk about how you and  Norwegian's other customers need this money now for rent etc.  How would you have gotten the money if the cruises had not been cancelled?

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1 minute ago, Lancer1568 said:

You talk about how you and  Norwegian's other customers need this money now for rent etc.  How would you have gotten the money if the cruises had not been cancelled?

I've pondered the same question.  However, we do have to consider the 3.5 million new unemployment claims all over the US in the space of a week, I'm sure some of those come from people who had cruises scheduled and now cancelled, and those people suddenly find themselves without the income they expected and now need the money that was already spent on the cruise.

 

Don't think I'm not sympathetic to the sudden financial impact current events have had on some people including someone I consider close, I certainly am sympathetic.

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3 hours ago, Comi.uy said:

From what Ive read this leaves you in a bad standing with them and in a no-go people, only do it if youre sure you wont ever again cruise with ncl...

Lots of fear mongering regarding chargebacks on here. You have to remember, not every business treats it's customers as poorly as NCL does.

 

If you approach chargebacks in good faith with your cc company, I would be surprised if you have any issues in normal economic conditions. Given the current situation, you're going to have even more latitude.

 

And as to an NCL implemented ban, oh well, I suppose that is their loss.

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54 minutes ago, julig22 said:

I would disagree.  CC company says merchant will refund, closes the case by removing the temporary credit that they put on your account.  Refund will come from NCL, not the CC, as you have a legitimate business relationship with NCL.

 

You could be right, I have never had a chargeback case such as this. I have no idea if NCL would tell the credit card company--and the credit card company would accept--"we're not refunding now, but we will."  "Come back 90 days after April 13th and we'll talk when we'll start getting around to your client's refund."   

 

If a CC company clawed back the credit even though they were assured by  NCL you were due a refund, I would look for a new CC.  

 

Interesting times . . .

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, blcruising said:

Lots of fear mongering regarding chargebacks on here. You have to remember, not every business treats it's customers as poorly as NCL does.

 

If you approach chargebacks in good faith with your cc company, I would be surprised if you have any issues in normal economic conditions. Given the current situation, you're going to have even more latitude.

 

And as to an NCL implemented ban, oh well, I suppose that is their loss.

Spot on regarding this subject.

 

If you have a good credit card company and spend quite a bit with them, they will bend over backwards to satisfy you. This is my experience. I have successfully completed at least 3 "chargebacks" in the past five years for various reasons including non-delivered goods/services. I've won all 3. The credit card companies don't want to alienate their loyal customers and see their money go to a competing bank.


That is why I don't understand the rhetoric for what I've seen several times now stating the NCL will Ban you for life if you attempt a chargeback. Let's think about that for a second. IF they make it through the next 3-4 months, and if they don't file Chapter 11, and IF they are cleared to allow selling of future sailings; who will they be selling cruises to? I feel that a significant number of loyal NCL passengers won't be returning because of NCL's actions during this mess and will be spending their cruise dollars with competing cruise lines (as have already stated in various threads) so those are lost customers/sales. Now NCL will remove another chunk of possible future cruise sales by banning said loyal cruisers who had the audacity to initiate a "chargeback" in order to obttain a prompt refund for a cancelled cruise.  Isn't that essentially cutting off their nose to save their face? I mean they've intentionally eroded their customer base which will be critical in trying to obtain enough future cruise sales to recover their business. Doesn't make much business sense to me?

Edited by Warm-Water Diver
typo

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6 hours ago, david_sobe said:

You should be excited and happy you are actually getting a refund.

I should be excited and happy about getting a refund for services not performed? Is that part of "cruise life"?

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We received notice of the cancellation of our May cruise today, obviously not unexpected. As most cruise lines I assume are doing, we were given the choice of a 125% future cruise credit or a "lesser value refund" as they phrase it in their email. Interestingly, they are able to offer the credit option almost immediately (the default) but their customers have to fill in a digital form by a certain future date and then wait at least 3 months for the refund. Really?
 
I note many cruisers on this site defending Norwegian as some sort of a clever marketer attempting to save their company. I think the approach Norwegian is using is, simply put, despicable! This is a time when everyone is fearful and stressed. Many people, including Norwegian's customers, are losing their jobs or laid off. Many of Norwegian's customers saved money for many years to book vacations and, in some cases, to book the dream vacation of a lifetime. Now many of these people are struggling to pay their rents or even buy food. Now Norwegian appropriately cancels their cruise but then says they'll hit the left button on their system and you'll get a cruise credit in a few days.....or......they'll hit the right button on their system and you'll get a refund (aka the cash they may desperately need) but they'll take more than 3 months to give it to you. Despicable. Don't let the defenders of Norwegian's actions fool you into thinking that a credit card refund is more than a simple keystroke of a computer. Despicable.
 
For a company that is likely to eventually receive millions if not billions of dollars in bailout funds from our taxes, how dare you hold on to the $3000 or maybe $4000 or maybe much more of your customers' hard-earned money for more than 3 months when so many others are helping each other out.  Despicable. The small private tour operators we had booked through have already fully refunded our tours, a process that took just a few days (the simple click of a button on their computer). And these small companies are struggling for their very existence. Yet they operate with integrity and realize the money they took is not theirs until they fulfill their promise of a tour. Take notice, Norwegian! That's how you operate a business.
 
We have sailed with several cruise lines in the past. This was to be our first cruise with Norwegian. Other cruise lines may be operating similarly, but my current experience is with Norwegian. I will, with no hesitation, book again with the small tour operators and family-run hotels that have already fully and promptly refunded my money. However, I will never again book a cruise with Norwegian Cruise Lines. Their business model is completely devoid of integrity and compassion at a time when most of us need integrity and compassion the most. Despicable. Shame on you, Norwegian, shame on you.
 
 

They will not get a bail out as they are not a US company. Your frustration, however, is understandable


Sent from my iPhone using Forums

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16 hours ago, zqvol said:

Clearly NCL does not have the cash to make the refunds right now. If they end up in Chapter 11, you will be lucky to get an FCC.

Pianobar has great points, but so does zqvol.  NCL is the smallest of the major cruise line companies and may struggle the most with this crisis.  Yes, NCL is creating a three month wait amounting to an interest free loan from you to them.  My suggestion is to chill, cross your fingers for your refunds and keep on cruising in the future.

 

We still enjoy NCL, but in recent years, we have move away from them toward Celebrity and Royal Caribbean.  Largely due to NCL's pricing which forces bundling pricing when you book early, which we always do.  We still compare NCL when we book, but the last two years, their fares are not so competitive anymore.  This will hurt them even more in the future.  I hope they survive.

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14 hours ago, mianmike said:

NCL can ban you for almost anything if they chose.  The question is will they ban you for expediting a refund via a chargeback before NCL is good and ready to release your money.   Looking for data points. 

Based on the OP's rant, I doubt they really care about getting banned by doing a charge back.

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