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Ruby Princess police investigation


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13 minutes ago, dizzy1948 said:

There you go - learn something new everyday. As far as I knew companies with ABN/ACN are legal entities in Aus and are "responsible" for all aspects of their business here. 

Oh wow, it's all messy.🥴and P & O Aus are the main entity - trading as...….

 

Once again, we have the difference between a company (which is a legal entity the same way a person is) and a Business Name, which is not. 🙂 A Business Name can have an ABN, but that does not make it a Company - different legal 'creature'.🙂

 

(Sorry to get technical, but the question was asked about Carnival Australia not being a legal entity.)

Edited by Aus Traveller
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The only way to get any redress will be using Lloyds open form ... cast the ship adrift with no fuel ..and then salvage her using Lloyds open form no cure no pay....you then own the ship ..... 

 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

Once again, we have the difference between a company (which is a legal entity the same way a person is) and a Business Name, which is not. 🙂 A Business Name can have an ABN, but that does not make it a Company - different legal 'creature'.🙂

 

(Sorry to get technical, but the question was asked about Carnival Australia not being a legal entity.)

No problem, greatly appreciated, I just thought seeing as it was registered here it was, all good. I'll just keep watching the thread, all will out in the end, years down the road.

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2 hours ago, dizzy1948 said:

No problem, greatly appreciated, I just thought seeing as it was registered here it was, all good. I'll just keep watching the thread, all will out in the end, years down the road.

Just the business name is registered here which doesn't actually mean much. And ABN is just an identifier and the importance of which depends on how a PTY LTD, trust or sole trader is set up. 

Edited by Pushka
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A technical point, but you can sue a business name. However, this is generally only in the rare situation when you don't know which legal entity owns the business name (because the business name is not registered and you can't ascertain the entity via other avenues). When there's a registered business name you would sue the legal entity.

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It beats me why the NSW police are even allowed to investigate this as it may be out of their jurisdiction. From what I have been reading apparently Australian Constitution states that in cases of pandemics requiring isolation or quarantine under a National Emergency, the Federal Government is responsible for the entry of people into Australia, not the States.

 

The ship definitely reported to federal authorities the sick passengers on board from an unknown infection that was not influenza. The warning signs were there.

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37 minutes ago, Scromes said:

A technical point, but you can sue a business name. However, this is generally only in the rare situation when you don't know which legal entity owns the business name (because the business name is not registered and you can't ascertain the entity via other avenues). When there's a registered business name you would sue the legal entity.

Because we were talking about Carnival Australia, I was referring to entities registered as Business Names (capital 'B' and capital 'N'), not to businesses operating under an unregistered name.🙂

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3 hours ago, DiamondFour said:

It beats me why the NSW police are even allowed to investigate this as it may be out of their jurisdiction. From what I have been reading apparently Australian Constitution states that in cases of pandemics requiring isolation or quarantine under a National Emergency, the Federal Government is responsible for the entry of people into Australia, not the States.

 

The ship definitely reported to federal authorities the sick passengers on board from an unknown infection that was not influenza. The warning signs were there.

 

That's why there is finger pointing both ways. The federal government IS responsible for overall border control, so they can't just palm it off to NSW Health and say nothing to do with us. Both share responsibility for the admission of Ruby Princess, NSW Health for their specific element, and Border Force for oversight of that.

 

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A Channel 7 news site mentioned that there were 900 overseas passengers on the Ruby Princess. A Canadian couple have since reported that they were 'forgotten'. She says that while on board, they were "given a sheet that told them to go to a hotel until it was time to go to the airport for their flight". She also said that when they arrived home, Princess phoned them about COVID on board the ship, then they received an email with more information. For some reason, she feels Princess didn't keep them informed.

 

 

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Information on events on 18th-19th March on Ruby Princess:

 

Closer to Sydney, the ship advised the Department of Agriculture, Water and the Environment that: ‘128 persons had reported as ill in the previous 14 days.

 

The symptoms declared by the vessel include 24 persons with temperature over 38 degrees Celsius, 6 persons with muscle aches, diarrhoea, severe headaches or vomiting.’ The federal department passed that information on to NSW Health for the next step.

 

According to Commissioner Outram of Border Force, NSW Health requested more medical information from the ship’s doctors on March 17. The next morning they were told a few swabs had been taken for flu.

NSW Health then requested passengers or crew with flu-like symptoms should be isolated, given hand rubs and masks and that announcement be made.

 

One passenger said “Not one word was said about anyone on board having the virus and everything was A-OK. The only thing they did say was if you are feeling sick, if you’ve got a temperature or if you’ve got a cough go and see the doctor during business hours.”  (This passenger must not realise that no-one knew COVID was on board at that time.)

 

Commissioner Outram said that when a cruise liner arrives at an Australian port, there three red lights – customs, migration and human biosecurity – that need to go green before passengers can disembark.

 

On the morning of the March 18, the Ruby Princess told NSW Health they’d collected the swabs and also needed an ambulance for one passenger. Just after 5pm on that day, NSW Health told the Ruby Princess that an onboard health assessment wasn’t needed – the ship was ‘low risk’ and “you are free to disembark tomorrow”.

 

NSW Health advised that all passengers should go into self-isolation for 14 days after. 

Edited by Aus Traveller
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The ABC also had that "report" about the Canadianshttps://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-13/coronavirus-concerns-for-international-ruby-princess-passengers/12143544

 

Another cherry-picked interview? Gee, I wonder how those people missed the previous written info provided, and at least one ship-wide broadcast that other passengers have mentioned, which included instruction on what to do if passengers felt unwell.

 

Cruise ships rarely give day to day announcements of illnesses and deaths onboard - in 14 cruises the only time I've heard any health related announcements, other than at the safety briefing, was on our first cruise on Sun where there were some cases of norovirus. Yet I've been on plenty of cruises with colds and flu circulating among passengers.

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1 minute ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Cruise ships rarely give day to day announcements of illnesses and deaths onboard - in 14 cruises the only time I've heard any health related announcements, other than at the safety briefing, was on our first cruise on Sun where there were some cases of norovirus. Yet I've been on plenty of cruises with colds and flu circulating among passengers.

In our many, many cruises, the only health announcements we have heard relate to noro, and then they never mention numbers.

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37 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

In our many, many cruises, the only health announcements we have heard relate to noro, and then they never mention numbers.

On a cruise from Sydney to Singapore there was an outbreak of the flu and announcements were regularly made for a few days that passengers with symptoms visit the medical centre. Quite a few passengers were wearing masks. I woke one morning feeling really unwell and thought I should go to the medical centre. I arrived as soon as it opened and it seemed half the passengers had the same idea. I was diagnosed fortunately with only a sinus infection and given some medication. 

 

Leigh

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Got a laugh out of our Sunday paper that says in 1 article "The Ruby Princess,the liner which has resulted in thousands of Australians becoming infected with COVID19 after it docked in Sydney" and in a second article shows a graphic of the "Overall Impact of the Ruby Princess Passengers" which shows "Passengers and Crew with Corona Virus 7021 Death Rate 52"  The Ruby Princess was much larger that I thought, must be the largest in the world!  FAKE NEWS  I wish reporters would concentrate on reporting the true fact not just trying to sensationalize the article.

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well it looks like the Federal and State governments have spent the long weekend figuring out how to make the stuff up look like a stroke of genius. Brad Hazzard has now announced in a media conference that letting everyone off the ship was the right decision because there would have been more infections if people have been allowed to stay on board. 

Edited by christodan
typo
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26 minutes ago, christodan said:

well it looks like the Federal and State governments have spent the long weekend figuring out how to make the stuff up look like a stroke of genius. Brad Hazzard has now announced in a media conference that letting everyone off the ship was the right decision because there would have been more infections if people have been allowed to stay on board. 

Is there a class action lawsuit by the passengers of the Ruby against the NSW Heaslth Ministry and Boarder Patrol? Hard for me to get exact information in the US.  Thanks

 

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5 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

Is there a class action lawsuit by the passengers of the Ruby against the NSW Heaslth Ministry and Boarder Patrol? Hard for me to get exact information in the US.  Thanks

 

No. But apparently there is a class action against  Carnival. 
Here we have had the state and federal departments pointing the finger at each other but also both trying to blame Carnival. They have been hinting that Carnival held back information on how many people were sick on the cruise. But it looks like this is just a flimsy claim which has easily been disproven by Carnival by their email and phone records. So now they have changed their tune and are claiming that they made a wise decision.

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1 minute ago, christodan said:

No. But apparently there is a class action against  Carnival. 
Here we have had the state and federal departments pointing the finger at each other but also both trying to blame Carnival. They have been hinting that Carnival held back information on how many people were sick on the cruise. But it looks like this is just a flimsy claim which has easily been disproven by Carnival by their email and phone records. So now they have changed their tune and are claiming that they made a wise decision.

Thanks for the info...I read that some Canadians were in a lawsuit..Quite honestly..NSW Health Ministry just dropped the international passengers and never followed up to see who of us are sick. I definitely felt the government wanted us out of Australia before we became their problem, otherwise they would never have given us the information sheet the last night that said go to airport and go home and isolate there.  

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4 minutes ago, christodan said:

No. But apparently there is a class action against  Carnival. 
Here we have had the state and federal departments pointing the finger at each other but also both trying to blame Carnival. They have been hinting that Carnival held back information on how many people were sick on the cruise. But it looks like this is just a flimsy claim which has easily been disproven by Carnival by their email and phone records. So now they have changed their tune and are claiming that they made a wise decision.

The class action that has been mentioned would be against Carnival Corp. The lawyers mentioned that they are considering also suing the NSW Health Dept and Border Force.

 

The Health Department report released at the start of April also said that the end result was better than if the passengers had remained on the ship. In my opinion, this is an amazing claim!! They seem to be trying to draw a parallel with the Diamond Princess quarantine in Japan. No-one has suggested passengers should have been kept int he ship for weeks, just long enough for the COVID tests to come back. With four passengers showing a positive result, the passengers could have been moved to isolation in hotels.

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2 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

Thanks for the info...I read that some Canadians were in a lawsuit..Quite honestly..NSW Health Ministry just dropped the international passengers and never followed up to see who of us are sick. I definitely felt the government wanted us out of Australia before we became their problem, otherwise they would never have given us the information sheet the last night that said go to airport and go home and isolate there.  

Yes as someone commented in the paper today, which summed it up well:

“The right questions were not being asked. It was [everyone saying] ‘that’s my bit done, over to you’”. The simple fact that there five government agencies – two federal and three state – involved in determining whether the ship should be allowed to dock is, in itself, a recipe for chaos. "

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/nrl-s-arrogance-apparent-in-singular-rush-to-return-20200411-p54j26.html

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22 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

Is there a class action lawsuit by the passengers of the Ruby against the NSW Heaslth Ministry and Boarder Patrol? Hard for me to get exact information in the US.  Thanks

 

We can't sue our Government Agencies but we can get the Ombudsman to investigate. Or ICAC if there are thoughts of corruption. 

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5 minutes ago, Pushka said:

We can't sue our Government Agencies but we can get the Ombudsman to investigate. Or ICAC if there are thoughts of corruption. 

That was my comment here at home. I haven't researched this, but I think it is likely the Government Departments are protected from prosecution. In my opinion, a couple of people working in NSW Health and/or Border Force 'stuffed up' (I don't usually use that term) in allowing Ruby Princess to disembark. If that is the case, it isn't a case for ICAC. However, it would be better for all concerned, if they came out and said they made a mistake and not try to shift the blame elsewhere.

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I actually don't blame NSWHealth  as the situation was evolving daily and they made the best decision at the time. I understand health decisions are always about weighing up risks and benefits and in hindsight they should have waited for the test results. But they honestly thought the cruise was low risk (although if there were international travellers, then they should have deemed it more than low risk, but maybe they didn't realise OS passengers go on NZ and AUS cruises). What I do object to, however, is government departments not taking responsibility and then trying to blame others i.e. in particular, Fuller saying "there's a third party in this  - the Captain."

I just wish people would say I am sorry I made a mistake. I have read studies about medical errors where  doctors who say to  their patients "sorry" are far less likely to be sued than doctors who try to cover up their mistakes. Most people just want acknowledgement and an apology, believe it or not.

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