Ruby Princess police investigation

[DiamondFour]

15 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

I haven't been agreeing with you on the theory of "corruption" in relation to the Police inquiry, but I will wait and see also. I think it  is more likely that the Commissioner is protecting his political masters' backsides and therefore his own.

He is definitely doing that. It appears more and more that way that he wants the ship gone as it is a stark reminder that people will keep asking questions with this article - https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/coronavirus/get-out-by-sunday-ruby-princess-is-ordered-to-leave-australian-waters-as-police-draw-a-line-in-the-sand-and-probe-whether-ships-doctor-was-told-to-downplay-coronavirus-risk-on-board/ar-BB12FXsr?ocid=mailsignout - Despite our obligations under international law and treaties this police commissioner is desperate to get the ship out of site and out of mind and is deliberately dragging his investigation to beyond September.

 

The police commissioner will not only seek to disrespect international laws and treaties by ordering the ship to leave but is refusing to investigate government departments. It exposes his extreme bias and lack of judgement on the issue. Further to that to blame a crew member without any evidence whatsoever is extremely bold and not even the most experienced investigatory would air that theory publicly until they had proof. 

 

This whole situation could come back to bite him on the bottom one day. Should powers to be in the future investigate then this police commissioner is toast.

[Pushka]

3 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

We don't know if anyone caught COVID on a flight. There is no social distancing in economy!

 

If a person isn't at risk in those circumstances, why are we bothering with social distancing at all? Why have we closed coffee shops and restaurants? You would be further away from strangers in those environments than in a plane.

In SA we have traced all positive contacts so we do know here because it's contained. There have been no reports of anyone here catching Covid from a flight. And the media would have been all over it if they had. 
 

 

[Porky55]

3 hours ago, Pushka said:

Those are warnings only and you actually proved my point!

Don’t shoot the messenger - this is the heading on the Govt health sites 😳 and it’s says:

Known Flights with Confirmed Cases of Covid-19.

I was just responding to the fact that you had said that NO FLIGHTS into Australia had cases of coronavirus. They most definitely have had and would have been the cause of at least some of the clusters. If SA managed to have all those planes arrive and not have anyone contract the virus - well done 👍
 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Porky55

[Aus Traveller]

6 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

Don’t shoot the messenger - this is the heading on the Govt health sites 😳 and it’s says:

Known Flights with Confirmed Cases of Covid-19.

I was just responding to the fact that you had said that NO FLIGHTS into Australia had cases of coronavirus. They most definitely have had and would have been the cause of at least some of the and clusters. 
 

Pushka actually said  🙂:

In many cases planes are a necessity, cruises never are. While a plane may transport someone with the virus, I have yet to hear of a case where someone caught the virus from someone else whilst on a plane.

 

There would have been many flights into Australia with an infected person on board. For instance, my DIL's sister arrived from France on 7th March. Of course, she didn't know she had the virus.

[Porky55]

Ridiculous to think that NO Flights would have Coronavirus during this pandemic:

More Cairns flights connected to coronavirus cases

The Cairns Post

April 1, 2020 1:28pm

 

HEALTH authorities have begun contact tracing for several new flights which have arrived in Cairns carrying passengers confirmed with coronavirus.

There are six Cairns flights – including an Emirates codeshare – currently being traced, which have come from Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne.

[The_Big_M]

There's a distinction in the wording. Pushka is saying the transmission occurred ON the plane. Whereas others are referring to transmission occurring by passengers WHO FLEW IN by plane.

 

That said, I see it as quibbling around the details. It doesn't change that there is no evidence to show Ruby Princess has done anything in the wrong, and indeed the tourist industry including cruises was fully supported by and compliant with government requirements. So any attempt like this is just trying to smear them to transfer blame after the event.

[Porky55]

23 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

There would have been many flights into Australia with an infected person on board. For instance, my DIL's sister arrived from France on 7th March. Of course, she didn't know she had the virus.

Exactly my point. 

And the passengers around her? This was before quarantine of course? They became the first of the ‘Overseas’ numbers one would assume?

However,  because the numbers on this  very much maligned Princess ship seem so terribly high - sometimes we just can’t see a broader picture. 
The “HOW” of Ruby will probably never be answered, whereas Diamond had that answer almost immediately.

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Porky55

[Porky55]

8 minutes ago, The_Big_M said:

Pushka is saying the transmission occurred ON the plane.

Nope - I’m definitely talking about transmission on the planes too. As are the numbers being given out by each of our State Health Depts. And they are happening.
Pushka just doesn’t want to see them I’m afraid. 
How could you possibly sit in an economy seat near someone who was asymptomatic and NOT get this virus?

If it didn’t happen, we would all still be flying ......

Edited April 16, 2020 by Porky55

[Pushka]

42 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

Don’t shoot the messenger - this is the heading on the Govt health sites 😳 and it’s says:

Known Flights with Confirmed Cases of Covid-19.

I was just responding to the fact that you had said that NO FLIGHTS into Australia had cases of coronavirus. They most definitely have had and would have been the cause of at least some of the clusters. If SA managed to have all those planes arrive and not have anyone contract the virus - well done 👍
 

But I didn’t say that. Because that is the most likely route that Covid got onto Ruby Princess. From UK US and Canadian passengers who flew here. And that is exactly how Covid came to Australia in the first place. What I did say was that plane flights don’t spread the virus - on the plane - the way cruise ships do. 

[DiamondFour]

There are several flights into Sydney prior to the Ruby Princess cruise on March 8th with confirmed cases of the virus from china on it.

 

 

CX101    Cathay Pacific    Hong Kong/Sydney    6 March 2020    7 March 2020

EK412
QF8412    Emirates    Dubai/Sydney    6 March 2020    7 March 2020

EK414    Emirates    Dubai/Sydney    7 March 2020    7 March 2020

EY450    Etihad    Abu Dhabi/Sydney    5 March 2020    6 March 2020

SQ221    Singapore    Singapore/Sydney    5 March 2020    6 March 2020

5J39    Cebu Pacific    Manila/Sydney    4 March 2020    5 March 2020

BA15    British Airways    London/Sydney
(via Singapore)    3 March 2020    5 March 2020

KE121    Korean Air    Incheon Korea/Sydney    4 March 2020    5 March 2020

5J39    Cebu Pacific    Philippines/Sydney    2 March 2020    3 March 2020

 

Source: https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/coronavirus-flights-archive.aspx#nsw-int

[Pushka]

21 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

Nope - I’m definitely talking about transmission on the planes too. As are the numbers being given out by each of our State Health Depts. And they are happening.
Pushka just doesn’t want to see them I’m afraid. 
How could you possibly sit in an economy seat near someone who was asymptomatic and NOT get this virus?

If it didn’t happen, we would all still be flying ......

We arent flying because there is no safe place to fly to and not because of the planes. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Pushka

[Porky55]

24 minutes ago, Pushka said:

What I did say was that plane flights don’t spread the virus - on the plane - the way cruise ships do. 

Ok, never meant to offend. Those weren’t the words you used but probably what you meant and I do understand what you are trying to say.

I do have a very soft spot for Ruby though and you seem not to. So I feel a need to defend this poor ship.
I don’t think, nor do I believe do you, that Ruby Princess returned to Sydney in the early hours of the 19th March in order to hide, cheat or lie to anyone or about anything.

I don’t think they (the ships Senior staff) had any idea at the time of the extent of the virus on the ship. How could they, they don’t carry the facilities to test for it anyway!!
I don’t think that NSW Health and Border Control believed that they had any problems on the ship and that passengers would do the right thing and just go home and be good little citizens and self isolate - (because of course, they all lived in Sydney). I just think NSWH and BC were wrong!!
I think lots of passengers on the ship are probably not telling the whole truth and will continue to not tell the whole truth about their health (not those on CC of course 😉) during the investigation.

I think the investigation will be a total waste of time and money and we will never really know how and what happened on Ruby, and it’s just a horrible, rotten waste of lives and everyone’s time and energy and no one is to blame except this bloody awful virus 😢

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Porky55

[Pushka]

15 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

I do have a very soft spot for Ruby though and you seem not to. So I feel a need to defend this poor ship.
I don’t think, nor do I believe do you, that Ruby Princess returned to Sydney in the early hours of the 19th March in order to hide, cheat or lie to anyone or about anything.

Sure I can see that you do. I’ve never travelled on her. I’ve been on Diamond, Golden and Dawn. I don’t hold any attachment to any ship I’ve been on except QM2. 
 

I don’t think the crew did anything deliberate. It does concern me why Princess seems more vulnerable though. 

[Aus Traveller]

33 minutes ago, DiamondFour said:

The fact that it was worldwide passenger base minimises the possibility of it being a crew member who infected everyone.

Another simple fact demonstrates that it was a passenger who unwittingly brought the virus on board.

 

At the end of the cruise, around 700 of the 2,547 passengers (27.5%) were infected. Three weeks later, during which time the crew were living in close quarters (not practicing social distancing), 46 out of 1,056 (4.3%) were infected. If the infection started with a crew member, there would have been a large proportion testing positive on 9th April, not only 46.

[The_Big_M]

1 hour ago, Porky55 said:

Nope - I’m definitely talking about transmission on the planes too. As are the numbers being given out by each of our State Health Depts. And they are happening.
Pushka just doesn’t want to see them I’m afraid. 
How could you possibly sit in an economy seat near someone who was asymptomatic and NOT get this virus?

If it didn’t happen, we would all still be flying ......

 

In that case, nothing you have posted so far shows that it happened. That's not to say it hasn't - but no reports have surfaced that it has.

 

And your posts with "Known Flights with Confirmed Cases of Covid-19" don't show that it happened on the plane.

 

In respect of your question, all the evidence to date shows that covid-19 is not transmissible via air, i.e. just being in the vicinity is not enough to get the virus. 

 

It is transmitted via droplets, touch, so the main opportunity is if you touch something that someone else has left the virus on. In a plane, even if you sat beside someone with it, there's a fair chance you won't touch anything they have left it on. Sure, it is certainly possible, e.g, obviously if they coughed or sneezed on you but given the restrictions in place that is unlikely to happen in general. And that's why social distancing is in place, to reduce this chance even further.

 

And, no, we would not all still be flying. It's not because of the risk of transmission on board, but actually due to virus carriers coming here and spreading it and nobody is aware. The plane (or ship) is not the matter, but the virus carrier themselves. Removing air travel prevents that from happening.

 

And that is why many speculate that "we could all be flying" but domestically, and not internationally. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by The_Big_M

[DiamondFour]

33 minutes ago, Pushka said:

It does concern me why Princess seems more vulnerable though. 

Princess is NOT more vulnerable. Here is a list of infected ships:

Diamond Princess

World Dream

Westerdam

A Sara

Grand Princess

Silver Shadow

Silver Explorer

Braemar

Ovation of the Seas

Voyager of the Seas

Costa Luminosa

Ruby Princess

Celebrity Solstice

Costa Magica

Costa Favolosa

Costa Victoria

Zaandam

Artania

Greg Mortimer

Pride of America

Spectrum of the Seas

[Porky55]

13 minutes ago, The_Big_M said:

And your posts with "Known Flights with Confirmed Cases of Covid-19" don't show that it happened on the plane.

Agree to disagree, all entitled to our own opinions.

[Pushka]

16 minutes ago, DiamondFour said:

Princess is NOT more vulnerable. Here is a list of infected ships:

Diamond Princess

World Dream

Westerdam

A Sara

Grand Princess

Silver Shadow

Silver Explorer

Braemar

Ovation of the Seas

Voyager of the Seas

Costa Luminosa

Ruby Princess

Celebrity Solstice

Costa Magica

Costa Favolosa

Costa Victoria

Zaandam

Artania

Greg Mortimer

Pride of America

Spectrum of the Seas

Care to share number of infections and deaths?

[DiamondFour]

27 minutes ago, Pushka said:

Care to share number of infections and deaths?

Its totally irrelevant. I know where you are going with this by suggesting the design of a ship contributes but that is nothing more than fanciful nonsense based on nothing. It is an infectious virus. More people have caught it on land and died on land than cruise ships. So far there are over 2,000,000 confirmed cases in the world with over 134,000 deaths. That tells me it is safer to be on a Princess ship than on land.

 

The cases on ships would have more to do with the age of the passenger, where in the world they came from, what airports they flew from and how long they were on the ship for. Some cruise companies offer only 2 to 5 day cruises while Princess offers some of the longest cruises available that go over 14 nights.

 

Cruise ships are not immune. Also the USS Theodore Roosevelt has an outbreak of 589 crew out of a crew of 5,000. The French Aircraft Carrier Charles De Gaulle has 668 cases out of 1,760 crew.

 

The design of the ship does not make one bit of difference as to how many people will catch the virus. There is no scientific or any logical reason that says a ships design makes it more susceptible.

 

One may also ask why does New York have more cases and deaths than wuhan or why is northern Italy suffering so badly.

 

There is nothing majorly different between Princess ships and all the other cruise ships that have outbreaks on them. All ships are basically very similar inside. 

[OzKiwiJJ]

1 hour ago, Pushka said:

I don’t think the crew did anything deliberate. It does concern me why Princess seems more vulnerable though. 

Partly the demographic on Princess ships. There are usually more older folk on Princess than on many other cruise lines. It's a good cruise line for us older folk. There is something restful about the decor of Princess as against the starker decor of Celebrity. There aren't the amusements that younger folk enjoy - the rock climbing, flowriders and so on. Although Princess is apparently good with kids, families aren't their target audience. So as older people are more susceptible to respiratory illnesses and, unfortunately, often don't follow the hygiene precautions as well as they should, which may mean a virus like this one probably spreads more easily on Princess cruises.

[Pushka]

Well, one practise that Princess does seem to do and which did cross contaminate one ship was swapping crew over mid cruise or between cruises. Normally not an issue but if there is some kind of viral thing happening (noro/covid) that isnt a good practise anymore.  Usually crew serves their contract out on one ship, goes on a break, then returns.  I wonder what else is a possibility.

 

If age is the only answer then the Cunard and HAL lines would also have been poorly impacted and certainly the former had no cases from what I've read. 

[Aus Traveller]

13 minutes ago, Pushka said:

Well, one practise that Princess does seem to do and which did cross contaminate one ship was swapping crew over mid cruise or between cruises. Normally not an issue but if there is some kind of viral thing happening (noro/covid) that isnt a good practise anymore.  Usually crew serves their contract out on one ship, goes on a break, then returns.  I wonder what else is a possibility.

There was a suggestion that a crew member form the Grand who moved to the Royal might have taken the virus with him, but it turned out not to be the case.

 

From my experience, moving crew from one ship to another (other than guest entertainers) doesn't happen very often. If a crew member wants to change ships, usually to join their partner, they can request this if they have no disciplinary charges against them and if the second ship has a vacancy. I think this is OK. These are people not just crew, and they should be allowed to move to another ship to join their partner.🙂

[By The Bay]

1 hour ago, DiamondFour said:

 More people have caught it on land and died on land than cruise ships. So far there are over 2,000,000 confirmed cases in the world with over 134,000 deaths. That tells me it is safer to be on a Princess ship than on land.

That is not a fair comparison. Compared with the amount of people on land to those on cruise ships, you were more likely to catch the virus on a cruise ship. Especially if it was a Princess cruise ship.

[Blackduck59]

Well, I'm late to the party here, and as a foreigner have no "Stake" in this investigation. I would hope that NSWP having been tasked with this investigation, will conduct it in a fair and responsible way. Just as I would hope that the RCMP would handle such an investigation in Canada. I would hope that the investigation will collect evidence and follow those leads no matter where they go. I really don't like the conspiracy theories or the many comments that the police are corrupt and are going into this VERY EXPENSIVE exercise with a preconceived result in order to CTA of some government wogs.

[The_Big_M]

2 hours ago, Porky55 said:

Agree to disagree, all entitled to our own opinions.

 

It's not an opinion.

 

Fact: a passenger on a plane has the virus.

Fact: no reported cases transmitted to contacts of that passenger on the plane.