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Dr.Dobro

Security stops American crew member from disembarking Oosterdam in LA

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Such a sad situation! I see both sides. 
I just can’t imagine what it must be like to be on a ship and contained. I hope all crew soon will be able to get home to their families soon.

Thank you for the info

Denise😊

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I can only see one side here and that is Joe Public being screwed again.  Countries all over the world are permitting citizens to return (with isolation/self quarantine).  Why a government body refuses the return of one of its citizens is beyond me.

Why insist on charter/private flights?  I am certain that government and other officials are travelling and not using private flights etc.  The returning citizens have been shown to be 'clean' but dirty politics will have its way.

(rant over!)

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I don't get it.  Haven't these ships been at sea with no passengers for longer than 2 weeks?   And no illness?  So why won't they be allowed to disembark their crew who are US citizens?   I would think these people would be safer to let into the population than letting people from another state that hasn't had self isolation.    

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Isn't there some law about being held against your will?  Kidnapping comes to mind.......

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20 minutes ago, HamOp said:

Isn't there some law about being held against your will?  Kidnapping comes to mind.......

It would seem that multiple government agencies and officials have used this pandemic scare to increase their own powers and toss the US Constitution into the sea.   It is bad enough that approximately 100,000 crew members, or many nationalities, are currently imprisoned on cruise ships located around the USA and some other places in the world.  But when a US Citizen is refused admission to their own country, there is something horribly wrong with the system.  I do not recall anything in the US Constitution that gives the CDC special powers to deny US citizens their rights...without any due process.    Why is Ms. Mann any more of a threat to the public health then any other person who is already ashore.?   The rules that have been imposed on the cruise lines and their crew are contrary to proper human rights.  And Ms, Mann has clearly being detained against her will, without any ability to appeal, receive a hearing, etc.    I love my country, have spent most of my life in public service, fought in a war, and never waivered in my support of country.  But the way our government has treated multiple cruise passengers and crew now make me ashamed of my country.  In a nation that usually understands right from wrong, this is clearly wrong!  

 

Hank

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First off, let me say that this person is not alone in being denied disembarkation from a ship.  For the last couple of months, tens of thousands of US citizens, serving on US flag ships have been denied the ability to get off the ship to either go home or just to go to a pharmacy to pick up a prescription at ports around the US.

 

Secondly, for the comment about allowing a US citizen entry into the US regardless of their medical condition, that is exactly what the mandate of the USPH/CDC is, to prevent the introduction of infectious diseases into the US, so they have, and have for decades, the right to do this.

 

Third, every ship entering a US port has, since the founding of the country, had to provide an "attestation" that the ship is "healthy" (no sick crew or passengers) in order to receive "pratique" or clearance to enter port and conduct operations.  This was first done in person to an official who came on the ship, but these days is done electronically.  Without "pratique", the ship was placed in a quarantine anchorage until it was considered by the port officials to be "healthy".  There are new rules set by the USCG for this health attestation, which includes more information than previously, but it applies to every ship of every flag, including my ship, a US flag tanker, with 100% US citizens onboard.  It is not the US government that is at fault here, it is Carnival who refused to provide the attestation.

 

This crew member's "civil rights" as a US citizen became severely limited the moment she set foot on a foreign flag cruise ship, just as any passenger's rights change at the gangway.  Just because most people don't understand this, and blithely go on cruising, thinking they have all their US "rights", doesn't make it correct.  The law onboard the ship is the law of the flag state, not the port the ship is in, or the nationality of the crew member.  And that law is embodied in the Captain by the flag state, and anyone acting under his direction is a "government agency" and does have legal power.  This person is wrong when she says she has no access to a lawyer while on the ship, she has a cell phone just like the rest of the world, and can contact one at any time.

 

Why did this happen, and why did Carnival not provide the attestation?  Because there were only 8 US crew, and the company would have had to provide private transportation from the ship to their home doorsteps.  Most likely they could not have even availed themselves of a single charter flight, since they likely came from various cities around the US.

 

While I feel for these people, I look at it in perspective.  Most port cities around the world do not allow crew changes from any ship, not just cruise ships.  There are, when operating normally, about 180,000 crew on all the cruise ships around the world.  However, other types of merchant shipping, ships that carry 80% of the world's economy, have 1.6 million crew onboard at any time, and they average 100,000 crew changes each and every month, and during the two months that the world has essentially been in lockdown, that has resulted in 200,000 crew not being able to crew change.  Tens of thousands of US citizens are among those mariners, and we have been on crew change "lockdown" for two months.  This is not a cruise ship problem, it is a world problem, because when the merchant mariners reach their statutory maximum time on a ship, and the ship cannot bring on new crew, these cargo ships, that are still working near normal levels, carrying the world's goods, will stop, and the world economy will crash.

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17 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

First off, let me say that this person is not alone in being denied disembarkation from a ship.  For the last couple of months, tens of thousands of US citizens, serving on US flag ships have been denied the ability to get off the ship to either go home or just to go to a pharmacy to pick up a prescription at ports around the US.

 

Secondly, for the comment about allowing a US citizen entry into the US regardless of their medical condition, that is exactly what the mandate of the USPH/CDC is, to prevent the introduction of infectious diseases into the US, so they have, and have for decades, the right to do this.

 

Third, every ship entering a US port has, since the founding of the country, had to provide an "attestation" that the ship is "healthy" (no sick crew or passengers) in order to receive "pratique" or clearance to enter port and conduct operations.  This was first done in person to an official who came on the ship, but these days is done electronically.  Without "pratique", the ship was placed in a quarantine anchorage until it was considered by the port officials to be "healthy".  There are new rules set by the USCG for this health attestation, which includes more information than previously, but it applies to every ship of every flag, including my ship, a US flag tanker, with 100% US citizens onboard.  It is not the US government that is at fault here, it is Carnival who refused to provide the attestation.

 

This crew member's "civil rights" as a US citizen became severely limited the moment she set foot on a foreign flag cruise ship, just as any passenger's rights change at the gangway.  Just because most people don't understand this, and blithely go on cruising, thinking they have all their US "rights", doesn't make it correct.  The law onboard the ship is the law of the flag state, not the port the ship is in, or the nationality of the crew member.  And that law is embodied in the Captain by the flag state, and anyone acting under his direction is a "government agency" and does have legal power.  This person is wrong when she says she has no access to a lawyer while on the ship, she has a cell phone just like the rest of the world, and can contact one at any time.

 

Why did this happen, and why did Carnival not provide the attestation?  Because there were only 8 US crew, and the company would have had to provide private transportation from the ship to their home doorsteps.  Most likely they could not have even availed themselves of a single charter flight, since they likely came from various cities around the US.

 

While I feel for these people, I look at it in perspective.  Most port cities around the world do not allow crew changes from any ship, not just cruise ships.  There are, when operating normally, about 180,000 crew on all the cruise ships around the world.  However, other types of merchant shipping, ships that carry 80% of the world's economy, have 1.6 million crew onboard at any time, and they average 100,000 crew changes each and every month, and during the two months that the world has essentially been in lockdown, that has resulted in 200,000 crew not being able to crew change.  Tens of thousands of US citizens are among those mariners, and we have been on crew change "lockdown" for two months.  This is not a cruise ship problem, it is a world problem, because when the merchant mariners reach their statutory maximum time on a ship, and the ship cannot bring on new crew, these cargo ships, that are still working near normal levels, carrying the world's goods, will stop, and the world economy will crash.

chengkp75,

 

Are the cargo ship lines continuing to pay crew that stuck on ship and can not leave for crew change?  There have been reports, including cruise line statements that pay is stopping for crew when their contract ends (Royal I believe said that they would pay for up to 30 days after contract end).

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1 hour ago, npcl said:

chengkp75,

 

Are the cargo ship lines continuing to pay crew that stuck on ship and can not leave for crew change?  There have been reports, including cruise line statements that pay is stopping for crew when their contract ends (Royal I believe said that they would pay for up to 30 days after contract end).

If you are on the ship, you are working, so you are getting paid.  And, despite statements to the contrary from the cruise lines, my reading of the MLC 2006 convention says that if repatriation is delayed, the company is liable for that time, hence the crew can at the very least sue for wages, and this can be adjudicated in the US in a maritime court.

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2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

First off, let me say that this person is not alone in being denied disembarkation from a ship.  For the last couple of months, tens of thousands of US citizens, serving on US flag ships have been denied the ability to get off the ship to either go home or just to go to a pharmacy to pick up a prescription at ports around the US.

 

Secondly, for the comment about allowing a US citizen entry into the US regardless of their medical condition, that is exactly what the mandate of the USPH/CDC is, to prevent the introduction of infectious diseases into the US, so they have, and have for decades, the right to do this.

 

Third, every ship entering a US port has, since the founding of the country, had to provide an "attestation" that the ship is "healthy" (no sick crew or passengers) in order to receive "pratique" or clearance to enter port and conduct operations.  This was first done in person to an official who came on the ship, but these days is done electronically.  Without "pratique", the ship was placed in a quarantine anchorage until it was considered by the port officials to be "healthy".  There are new rules set by the USCG for this health attestation, which includes more information than previously, but it applies to every ship of every flag, including my ship, a US flag tanker, with 100% US citizens onboard.  It is not the US government that is at fault here, it is Carnival who refused to provide the attestation.

 

This crew member's "civil rights" as a US citizen became severely limited the moment she set foot on a foreign flag cruise ship, just as any passenger's rights change at the gangway.  Just because most people don't understand this, and blithely go on cruising, thinking they have all their US "rights", doesn't make it correct.  The law onboard the ship is the law of the flag state, not the port the ship is in, or the nationality of the crew member.  And that law is embodied in the Captain by the flag state, and anyone acting under his direction is a "government agency" and does have legal power.  This person is wrong when she says she has no access to a lawyer while on the ship, she has a cell phone just like the rest of the world, and can contact one at any time.

 

Why did this happen, and why did Carnival not provide the attestation?  Because there were only 8 US crew, and the company would have had to provide private transportation from the ship to their home doorsteps.  Most likely they could not have even availed themselves of a single charter flight, since they likely came from various cities around the US.

 

While I feel for these people, I look at it in perspective.  Most port cities around the world do not allow crew changes from any ship, not just cruise ships.  There are, when operating normally, about 180,000 crew on all the cruise ships around the world.  However, other types of merchant shipping, ships that carry 80% of the world's economy, have 1.6 million crew onboard at any time, and they average 100,000 crew changes each and every month, and during the two months that the world has essentially been in lockdown, that has resulted in 200,000 crew not being able to crew change.  Tens of thousands of US citizens are among those mariners, and we have been on crew change "lockdown" for two months.  This is not a cruise ship problem, it is a world problem, because when the merchant mariners reach their statutory maximum time on a ship, and the ship cannot bring on new crew, these cargo ships, that are still working near normal levels, carrying the world's goods, will stop, and the world economy will crash.

It is very rare that I ever disagree with you but this will be one of those rare cases.  Perhaps HAL did not do what the CDC wanted but this is not about HAL, CCL, or the CDC.  It is about American Citizens that have been denied entry to their own country!  Perhaps it is because a corporation (be it HAL or CCL) have not done the bidding of some government officials, but this is about the individuals (specially Ms. Mann and her fellow US Citizen crew) and them being abandoned by their own country!  We need to put our citizens and legal residents first!  If their employers have screwed-up them whip them with a wet noodle or slap a fine on them (it would likely take at least 60 days for them to pay any fine).   My rights as a US Citizen should not be dependent on my employer jumping through government hoops.   If they want to put Arnold Donald in a dungeon and throw away the key because one of his companies failed to provide a form...then so be it!  But I want the workers treated with respect....not tossed out like some piece of trash!  I spent much of my life working for the government in the healthcare side....and always tried to remember that my job was to serve real people!

 

My complaint is not just about Ms. Mann.  We saw similar outrageous policies with ships that were initially denied docking rights in other US ports....while passengers/crew (some of whom were Americans) were denied the higher quality medical care they could only get ashore.  In at least one case we had folks die on a ship while they were waiting for permission to dock or get some of these folks medically evacuated.  This is the kind of bureaucratic BS I might expect from countries like North Korea....but not from my own country.   A few years ago I was on the Oosterdam when a passenger became very ill while we were returning from a transpacific cruise.  We were out of range of the normal Coast Guard service area and this passenger needed help.  The US Navy Seal group at El Coronado put together an evacuation plan which included flying one of their special helicopters out to our ship along with a KC-130 Aerial tanker plane that refueled that chopper within sight of our ship.  They winched up that very ill passenger and got him to San Diego.  While watching that operation, from the ship, I was proud to be from a country that would do all that to save a single life.  What I have seen in both California and Florida (regarding cruise ships) makes me ashamed!

 

Hank

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Well, Hank, then I hope you have the same feelings for me, because as a US citizen, in a US port, I have been denied the ability to go ashore either to go home or just to visit a pharmacy to pick up a prescription, and it was not because of anything my company did, it was based on state and local regulations for the covid pandemic.  I've been denied shore leave at certain US ports for years, and it has only been in the last year that the USCG has stepped up to ensure enforcement of policies that ensure our rights to shore leave, overriding the terminals' claims of "security".  We have been denied crew changes for two months now, since most ports in the US do not allow any crew members to come ashore.

 

But, again, the crew on a foreign flag ship are a different case.  While your rights as a US citizen should not depend on the company's actions (and that is a stretch, given that the US has limited jurisdiction over the ship), you do agree that if you are in a foreign country that your rights as a US citizen are curtailed, right?  Being on a foreign flag ship is exactly the same.

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3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, Hank, then I hope you have the same feelings for me, because as a US citizen, in a US port, I have been denied the ability to go ashore either to go home or just to visit a pharmacy to pick up a prescription, and it was not because of anything my company did, it was based on state and local regulations for the covid pandemic.  I've been denied shore leave at certain US ports for years, and it has only been in the last year that the USCG has stepped up to ensure enforcement of policies that ensure our rights to shore leave, overriding the terminals' claims of "security".  We have been denied crew changes for two months now, since most ports in the US do not allow any crew members to come ashore.

 

But, again, the crew on a foreign flag ship are a different case.  While your rights as a US citizen should not depend on the company's actions (and that is a stretch, given that the US has limited jurisdiction over the ship), you do agree that if you are in a foreign country that your rights as a US citizen are curtailed, right?  Being on a foreign flag ship is exactly the same.

Prior to Covid - Is that because most ships have foreign crews so the ports are not wanting to do anything different for the US crew on US flagged ships?

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Hank,  I don’t often disagree with you but your argument is an emotional one, apparently not support by laws as outlined by chengkp75.

 

One item I think people overlook with the crew on cruise ships is that unless their contract is up (and some are), their jobs were to be on the cruise ship for 6-8 months.  It’s not like all of them are being held captive.  In fact, their job right now is much easier then normal as there are no passengers to look after.

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Posted (edited)

While CDC is the government body enforcing these strict rules, the article clearly says that HAL failed to file the required attestations.  CDC said other lines have successfully filed these attestations but for some reason, Carnival Corp and HAL just can't seem to follow the rules.  And even after CBP seemed to side with the crew members, it was the ship's security who got in the way and threatened to go as far as physically restrain them.  This one's on HAL and frankly, especially considering the crew member's contract is up, I'll be very interested to see how this plays out.  HAL needs to tread lightly on this because I can see how they could be held criminally liable on this for 2 reasons; one, violating a COTP (Captain of the Port) order by not filing the attestations and 2; as a direct result of number 1, holding US citizens against their will.  

Edited by Aquahound

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Copper is correct, It WAS NOT Navy Seals and the Westerdam, it was the Coast Guard:

 

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2013/10/articles/rescue/coast-guard-medevacs-passenger-from-hals-westerdam/

 

This is an operation the Coast Guard does fairly frequently, at various levels of complexities. Second choice might be Air Force pararescue folks, they have done similar rescues. Navy Seals? Not likely.

 

I am curious. What US civil right allows a citizen to knowingly or unknowingly expose someone else to a disease, keeping in mind you can spread Covid19 without being symptomatic? You do know it is illegal to knowing expose some else to a disease, right? I know there is no reason to believe any of these crew were sick, and I totally DON"T agree with the policy the Federal Government has taken. I DO believe an American should be able to re-enter the US. But there are two sides to this. I believe there is every reason to quarantine any people coming in, and the government, for requiring said quarantine, should cover the cost, as part of protecting our citizens.

 

That being said, it certainly sounds like HAL has not held up their responsibilities either.

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18 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

While CDC is the government body enforcing these strict rules, the article clearly says that HAL failed to file the required attestations.  CDC said other lines have successfully filed these attestations but for some reason, Carnival Corp and HAL just can't seem to follow the rules.  And even after CBP seemed to side with the crew members, it was the ship's security who got in the way and threatened to go as far as physically restrain them.  This one's on HAL and frankly, especially considering the crew member's contract is up, I'll be very interested to see how this plays out.  HAL needs to tread lightly on this because I can see how they could be held criminally liable on this for 2 reasons; one, violating a COTP (Captain of the Port) order by not filing the attestations and 2; as a direct result of number 1, holding US citizens against their will.  

I have read other stories about US crew members getting sent home under the new CDC guidelines.  Now all of a sudden it is too expensive.  Is it really cost or is it a smoke screen for something else?

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27 minutes ago, npcl said:

I have read other stories about US crew members getting sent home under the new CDC guidelines.  Now all of a sudden it is too expensive.  Is it really cost or is it a smoke screen for something else?

 

27 minutes ago, npcl said:

I have read other stories about US crew members getting sent home under the new CDC guidelines.  Now all of a sudden it is too expensive.  Is it really cost or is it a smoke screen for something else?

 

How could it not be too expensive?  Requiring charter flights within the U.S. for all disembarking U.S. crew?  Further, it is an unreasonable regulation  not reasonably related to preventing the spread of a disease into communities that already have the disease and where there is no evidence that this crew member has been tested positive?. And, BTW, there is a reasonable alternative to requiring charter air, bus, car, or whatever:  Test the crew person.  If she is positive, quarantine her on land.  Regulations have to have a reasonable purpose and not violate constitutional rights.  These regulations are way out of line for their intended purpose.

 

Also, where have you read that other US crew members are getting sent home under the new CDC guidelines.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Tampa Girl said:

 

 

How could it not be too expensive?  Requiring charter flights within the U.S. for all disembarking U.S. crew?  Further, it is an unreasonable regulation  not reasonably related to preventing the spread of a disease into communities that already have the disease and where there is no evidence that this crew member has been tested positive?. And, BTW, there is a reasonable alternative to requiring charter air, bus, car, or whatever:  Test the crew person.  If she is positive, quarantine her on land.  Regulations have to have a reasonable purpose and not violate constitutional rights.  These regulations are way out of line for their intended purpose.

 

Also, where have you read that other US crew members are getting sent home under the new CDC guidelines.

Right after the new guidelines were put into effect some US crew from the Coral were sent home at the same time as the passengers.  There was also a story about some on one of the Royal ships.

 

Lets put it this how much is too expensive for them to get their employees home?

 

If there were 8 US crew from the ship in San Diego that had to fly to 8 different cities, you could do it on one charter plane, that depending upon the route would cost between $2500 to $3500 per person. The difference is the amount of flying time depending upon different city configurations (the more expensive route used LA, Seattle, Denver, Dallas, Chicago, New York, Atlanta and Miami).  I used the firm the  company I retired from used  for charter flights and asked them to price it.  I suspect with their purchasing power the cruise line could get a better price.  So more expensive then standard airline tickets but not totally out of line for getting employees home.

Edited by npcl

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Tampa Girl said:

 

 

How could it not be too expensive?  Requiring charter flights within the U.S. for all disembarking U.S. crew?  Further, it is an unreasonable regulation  not reasonably related to preventing the spread of a disease into communities that already have the disease and where there is no evidence that this crew member has been tested positive?. And, BTW, there is a reasonable alternative to requiring charter air, bus, car, or whatever:  Test the crew person.  If she is positive, quarantine her on land.  Regulations have to have a reasonable purpose and not violate constitutional rights.  These regulations are way out of line for their intended purpose.

 

Also, where have you read that other US crew members are getting sent home under the new CDC guidelines.

A couple of other points. 

 

The only thing that  a negative test tells you is that you are not showing enough virus at that time to detect the virus.  That is why they usually waited until after quarantine to test.  Lots of false negatives, even with people showing symptoms that later tested positive.

 

The other point is some of the other requirements are the cruise lines providing medical information to the CDC.  It is part of what they have to attest to.  So is the expense the real issue or is it a smoke screen because they do not want to turn over all of the medical information that is required in the guidelines, information that would detail exactly how many ill have been  on the ships off the US and on which ships.

 

The cruise lines were willing to use charter flights for some of the crew.  Some were sent home to the Philippines that way via the US by charter flights.  At that time the sticking point was that some countries would not accept flights. Now it seems to be cost. Now that the rule is in place the cruise lines are sending them home by ship. What is the cost of taking several cruise ships half way around the world.  I suspect the charter flights are not that much more. But they have to turn over less information.

Edited by npcl

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The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is the leading national public health institute of the United States. It is a United States federal agency, under the Department of Health and Human Services, and is headquartered in Atlanta, Georgia.

 

The CDC order that 25-yr old Club HAL coordinator on the Oosterdam, a U.S. National, decided to challenge in San Pedro/Port of L.A. two days ago:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships_Extension_4-9-20-encrypted.pdf

 

 The part that affects her and her co-workers, no matter which nationality, is on page 8, sub-section 1

 

Do I agree with it? Do I agree with the young lady's actions on April 28th? Those are two other questions

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11 hours ago, npcl said:

Prior to Covid - Is that because most ships have foreign crews so the ports are not wanting to do anything different for the US crew on US flagged ships?

Yes, the terminal security was tightened after 9-11 by the ISPS (International Ship and Port Security) Code, which the USCG pushed through the IMO, and this became the Maritime Transportation Security Act of 2002, one provision of which is the requirement for all US seafarers, and other US workers wishing unrestricted access to marine terminal areas, to obtain a TWIC (Transportation Worker Identification Card), which started being issued in 2007, and which included an FBI background check.  This was designed to allow US seafarers a way through the security instituted at ports not available to foreign seafarers, because our background and criminal records were available for vetting.  However, the terminals did not accept the TWIC as anything more than an ID card, and it wasn't until last year that the USCG made a final ruling on ISPS that said they would start enforcing freedom of access to US seafarers, free of cost to the seafarer (i.e. if the terminal demanded that they provide a shuttle bus to the gate, that could not be charged to the seafarer).

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8 hours ago, npcl said:

Right after the new guidelines were put into effect some US crew from the Coral were sent home at the same time as the passengers.  There was also a story about some on one of the Royal ships.

 

Lets put it this how much is too expensive for them to get their employees home?

 

If there were 8 US crew from the ship in San Diego that had to fly to 8 different cities, you could do it on one charter plane, that depending upon the route would cost between $2500 to $3500 per person. The difference is the amount of flying time depending upon different city configurations (the more expensive route used LA, Seattle, Denver, Dallas, Chicago, New York, Atlanta and Miami).  I used the firm the  company I retired from used  for charter flights and asked them to price it.  I suspect with their purchasing power the cruise line could get a better price.  So more expensive then standard airline tickets but not totally out of line for getting employees home.

Then you have to add in the cost of a bus to the charter aircraft, clearance for the charter aircraft to load and unload passengers outside "a public terminal" (even a FBO terminal), and private transportation from the destination airport to the crew member's home.

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