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Horrible overreaction by all parties. As a US citizen she should be allowed entry to the US regardless of her medical condition.  

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First I agree totally, I am old enough to remember when being at United States Citizen meant something!!!! I do recognize that much like being in a foreign embassy, on a ship attached to United States you are still technically in a foreign country. The Captain of the Ship is the legal entity on that ship. That said the Captain was basically caught between his company corporate entity and the US government. Readaing the article and acting on the presumption that it is basically accurate this all boiled down to $$$.

 

"Reed noted, "In the last two weeks, other cruise lines have provided signed attestations to disembark crew members. And CDC has approved those disembarkations. Neither Holland America nor Carnival provided the attestation despite requests from CDC."

Holland America and Carnival told the agency that arranging travel for its crew without using commercial aircraft was proving too expensive, she added."

 

See, bottom line under no sail line must provide certain guarantees. Those cost money, corporation says costs too much. Thus a citizen of the United States of America was left to go to back to sea under the authority of a foreign entity.

 

Funny Carnival had no problem collecting sales dock for drinks at while at dock. No problem reporting gambling winning to US while at sea. But they couldn't comply with these rules?

 

Shame on HA, Carnival Corporation, and the United States Government. This is why so many served, went to Europe, Korea, Nam, fight in Afghanistan, Iraq? To have some foreign Corporation refuse to comply with requirements to do right by their staff and have the United States Government stand at dock scratching their b--ls? There are over 40 United States Citizens on board ships, don't know how many want to come home to us but those that do should have been confident that their government would have made that possible.

 

George in NY

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1 hour ago, Georgeny said:

First I agree totally, I am old enough to remember when being at United States Citizen meant something!!!! I do recognize that much like being in a foreign embassy, on a ship attached to United States you are still technically in a foreign country. The Captain of the Ship is the legal entity on that ship. That said the Captain was basically caught between his company corporate entity and the US government. Readaing the article and acting on the presumption that it is basically accurate this all boiled down to $$$.

 

"Reed noted, "In the last two weeks, other cruise lines have provided signed attestations to disembark crew members. And CDC has approved those disembarkations. Neither Holland America nor Carnival provided the attestation despite requests from CDC."

Holland America and Carnival told the agency that arranging travel for its crew without using commercial aircraft was proving too expensive, she added."

 

See, bottom line under no sail line must provide certain guarantees. Those cost money, corporation says costs too much. Thus a citizen of the United States of America was left to go to back to sea under the authority of a foreign entity.

 

Funny Carnival had no problem collecting sales dock for drinks at while at dock. No problem reporting gambling winning to US while at sea. But they couldn't comply with these rules?

 

Shame on HA, Carnival Corporation, and the United States Government. This is why so many served, went to Europe, Korea, Nam, fight in Afghanistan, Iraq? To have some foreign Corporation refuse to comply with requirements to do right by their staff and have the United States Government stand at dock scratching their b--ls? There are over 40 United States Citizens on board ships, don't know how many want to come home to us but those that do should have been confident that their government would have made that possible.

 

George in NY

 

On the other side of this coin, CDC promulgated some outlandish requirements requiring extraordinary expenditures by the cruiselines.  There were no known COVID cases aboard the Oosterdam.  It was the U.S. Government which passed questionable regulations, and it is the U.S. Government which is preventing its own citizens from re-entering this country.  The requirements for allowing re-entry went far beyond that which is necessary to avoid the spread of this virus.  The irony is that the U.S. government is allowing flights from certain other countries but is selectively imposing onerous requirements on the cruiselines.  Perhaps our esteemed U.S. Attorney General could expand their investigation from constitutionally-suspect States' lockdown requirements to the CDC's regulations.

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First, if she has been quarantined on the ship and they have no cases, CDC should have allowed her off. Also, requiring HAL to provide charter flights in a case like this is ridiculous. Anyone taking a commercial flight right now probably only has to pass a screening test and an asymptomatic Covid carrier could easily be allowed on the flight.

This is an example of some stupid government bureaucrat not using common sense and I'm sure, as explained by the captain, allowing her to violate what CDC had instructed the ship to do could have made it more difficult for other ships because the stupid bureaucrat who put up that roadblock would probably get their panties in a bunch and take that out on other HAL ships trying to disembark crew.

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I find the actions of the CDC to be disgusting. .  You don't treat American Citizens this way. This is over reaction and downright un-American.

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5 minutes ago, Himself said:

I find the actions of the CDC to be disgusting. .  You don't treat American Citizens this way. This is over reaction and downright un-American.

Thank you for saying that, Father.  I am totally bemused and dismayed by the way American Citizens are being treated by American government bodies.  

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The requirements to exit the ship is for the cruise line to provide transportation home that is not on a public commercial flight.  The cruise line has not done so.  Until they do, no one is getting off.

 

The cruise lines have been testing very few people.  Without complete transparency in reporting medical status, and in performing testing, the CDC has no way of knowing if there is COVID-19 or not.  There are several cases where the cruise lines have reported no COVID on board, only to have people tested on shore showing that there was.  That transparency in reporting and testing is also one of the requirements that the CDC included for the cruise lines.

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This article explains what is going on:

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article242380421.html

 

Cruise companies refuse CDC terms to repatriate crew, call transport ‘too expensive’

 

It appears that the cruise lines are trying to play hardball. Will be interesting to see who blinks first.  

 

Even though the cruise lines have previously sent some crew home in accordance with the terms, they are now not willing to sign the certifications.

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22 minutes ago, npcl said:

The requirements to exit the ship is for the cruise line to provide transportation home that is not on a public commercial flight.  The cruise line has not done so.  Until they do, no one is getting off.

 

The cruise lines have been testing very few people.  Without complete transparency in reporting medical status, and in performing testing, the CDC has no way of knowing if there is COVID-19 or not.  There are several cases where the cruise lines have reported no COVID on board, only to have people tested on shore showing that there was.  That transparency in reporting and testing is also one of the requirements that the CDC included for the cruise lines.

It seems to me that a U.S. citizen getting off a cruise ship in a U.S. port is "home".  So why would a charter flight to some other city in the United States be a requirement?

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Below is the reason for the disagreement.  HAL, and all other cruise lines, has to arrange for nonpublic transportation.   They did so for most passengers but they refused to do so here because it was too expensive.  This was well reported on the local news and will be bad publicity for the company.

 

"Holland America nor Carnival provided the attestation despite requests from CDC. The refusal of Holland America and Carnival executives to attest to safe disembarkation conditions is the reason why CDC did not approve disembarkation for the Oosterdam crew. In conversations with CDC, an official of the companies complained that arranging nonpublic transportation for its disembarking crew was too expensive."

 

https://www.foxla.com/news/american-crew-on-board-docked-cruise-ship-in-la-not-allowed-to-disembark

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Meanwhile someone from NYC (the hottest of hot zones in the world right now) can hop on a flight and travel to Florida, with no test needed.  Give me a break, CDC.  Once again, they are showing their ignorance and bias. 

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3 hours ago, Petunia1950 said:

It seems to me that a U.S. citizen getting off a cruise ship in a U.S. port is "home".  So why would a charter flight to some other city in the United States be a requirement?

Since the new requirements by CDC.  Started with the Coral Princess.  Any passengers or crew disembarking at a US port  must be transported home, without using public transportation.  The cruise lines have to certify.  They did so for some, but now appear to in mass decided to stop.  Thus ship security will not let an american off the ship in a US port, because the ship will not certify that they are in compliance with CDC rules.  Waiting for a US crew member to file suite for false imprisonment.

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40 minutes ago, Fredric22 said:

Meanwhile someone from NYC (the hottest of hot zones in the world right now) can hop on a flight and travel to Florida, with no test needed.  Give me a break, CDC.  Once again, they are showing their ignorance and bias. 

Maybe the cruise lines should have been more cooperative.  When they first stopped sailing in March the CLIA submitted a plan to the CDC saying that they could implement the plan in 7 days.  Many of the things the CDC requested in the April 15 document was listed in the CLIA plan.  However, once they suspended sailings, they never moved to implement the plan.  Instead they continued to bring ships to US ports, ships that other countries would not allow, off loading passengers and running them through commercial flights.  Ships where passengers were not tested or only a few were tested, even though many had flu like symptoms. As long as they were not running a temperature they could get off.

 

As long as the ship  got the passenger off, any costs were for someone else to deal with , not the cruise lines.

 

In the meantime the ships were staking up off the US coast, periodically offloading sick crew members that had gotten too serious to remain on ship.

 

That is the environment in which the CDC established the new rules and started applying them with the Coral Princess.

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1 hour ago, Fredric22 said:

Meanwhile someone from NYC (the hottest of hot zones in the world right now) can hop on a flight and travel to Florida, with no test needed.  Give me a break, CDC.  Once again, they are showing their ignorance and bias. 

From the Visit Florida web site. 

 

All persons traveling to Florida from New York, New Jersey, Connecticut or Louisiana are required upon entry to Florida to self-isolate or self-quarantine for 14 days, or for the duration of their presence in the state, whichever is shorter. Roadside checkpoints are set up on interstates to check for potential COVID-19 cases coming into Florida from areas with substantial community spread of the virus. The checkpoints do not apply to commercial drivers or health workers. Click here and here for more information.

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First off, let me say that this person is not alone in being denied disembarkation from a ship.  For the last couple of months, tens of thousands of US citizens, serving on US flag ships have been denied the ability to get off the ship to either go home or just to go to a pharmacy to pick up a prescription at ports around the US.

 

Secondly, for the comment about allowing a US citizen entry into the US regardless of their medical condition, that is exactly what the mandate of the USPH/CDC is, to prevent the introduction of infectious diseases into the US, so they have, and have for decades, the right to do this.

 

Third, every ship entering a US port has, since the founding of the country, had to provide an "attestation" that the ship is "healthy" (no sick crew or passengers) in order to receive "pratique" or clearance to enter port and conduct operations.  This was first done in person to an official who came on the ship, but these days is done electronically.  Without "pratique", the ship was placed in a quarantine anchorage until it was considered by the port officials to be "healthy".  There are new rules set by the USCG for this health attestation, which includes more information than previously, but it applies to every ship of every flag, including my ship, a US flag tanker, with 100% US citizens onboard.  It is not the US government that is at fault here, it is Carnival who refused to provide the attestation.

 

This crew member's "civil rights" as a US citizen became severely limited the moment she set foot on a foreign flag cruise ship, just as any passenger's rights change at the gangway.  Just because most people don't understand this, and blithely go on cruising, thinking they have all their US "rights", doesn't make it correct.  The law onboard the ship is the law of the flag state, not the port the ship is in, or the nationality of the crew member.  And that law is embodied in the Captain by the flag state, and anyone acting under his direction is a "government agency" and does have legal power.  This person is wrong when she says she has no access to a lawyer while on the ship, she has a cell phone just like the rest of the world, and can contact one at any time.

 

Why did this happen, and why did Carnival not provide the attestation?  Because there were only 8 US crew, and the company would have had to provide private transportation from the ship to their home doorsteps.  Most likely they could not have even availed themselves of a single charter flight, since they likely came from various cities around the US.

 

While I feel for these people, I look at it in perspective.  Most port cities around the world do not allow crew changes from any ship, not just cruise ships.  There are, when operating normally, about 180,000 crew on all the cruise ships around the world.  However, other types of merchant shipping, ships that carry 80% of the world's economy, have 1.6 million crew onboard at any time, and they average 100,000 crew changes each and every month, and during the two months that the world has essentially been in lockdown, that has resulted in 200,000 crew not being able to crew change.  Tens of thousands of US citizens are among those mariners, and we have been on crew change "lockdown" for two months.  This is not a cruise ship problem, it is a world problem, because when the merchant mariners reach their statutory maximum time on a ship, and the ship cannot bring on new crew, these cargo ships, that are still working near normal levels, carrying the world's goods, will stop, and the world economy will crash.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

First off, let me say that this person is not alone in being denied disembarkation from a ship.  For the last couple of months, tens of thousands of US citizens, serving on US flag ships have been denied the ability to get off the ship to either go home or just to go to a pharmacy to pick up a prescription at ports around the US.

 

Secondly, for the comment about allowing a US citizen entry into the US regardless of their medical condition, that is exactly what the mandate of the USPH/CDC is, to prevent the introduction of infectious diseases into the US, so they have, and have for decades, the right to do this.

 

Third, every ship entering a US port has, since the founding of the country, had to provide an "attestation" that the ship is "healthy" (no sick crew or passengers) in order to receive "pratique" or clearance to enter port and conduct operations.  This was first done in person to an official who came on the ship, but these days is done electronically.  Without "pratique", the ship was placed in a quarantine anchorage until it was considered by the port officials to be "healthy".  There are new rules set by the USCG for this health attestation, which includes more information than previously, but it applies to every ship of every flag, including my ship, a US flag tanker, with 100% US citizens onboard.  It is not the US government that is at fault here, it is Carnival who refused to provide the attestation.

 

This crew member's "civil rights" as a US citizen became severely limited the moment she set foot on a foreign flag cruise ship, just as any passenger's rights change at the gangway.  Just because most people don't understand this, and blithely go on cruising, thinking they have all their US "rights", doesn't make it correct.  The law onboard the ship is the law of the flag state, not the port the ship is in, or the nationality of the crew member.  And that law is embodied in the Captain by the flag state, and anyone acting under his direction is a "government agency" and does have legal power.  This person is wrong when she says she has no access to a lawyer while on the ship, she has a cell phone just like the rest of the world, and can contact one at any time.

 

Why did this happen, and why did Carnival not provide the attestation?  Because there were only 8 US crew, and the company would have had to provide private transportation from the ship to their home doorsteps.  Most likely they could not have even availed themselves of a single charter flight, since they likely came from various cities around the US.

 

While I feel for these people, I look at it in perspective.  Most port cities around the world do not allow crew changes from any ship, not just cruise ships.  There are, when operating normally, about 180,000 crew on all the cruise ships around the world.  However, other types of merchant shipping, ships that carry 80% of the world's economy, have 1.6 million crew onboard at any time, and they average 100,000 crew changes each and every month, and during the two months that the world has essentially been in lockdown, that has resulted in 200,000 crew not being able to crew change.  Tens of thousands of US citizens are among those mariners, and we have been on crew change "lockdown" for two months.  This is not a cruise ship problem, it is a world problem, because when the merchant mariners reach their statutory maximum time on a ship, and the ship cannot bring on new crew, these cargo ships, that are still working near normal levels, carrying the world's goods, will stop, and the world economy will crash.

The cruise lines, and maybe the cargo companies, could get together, set up a clearing house, maybe with cooperation with one of the major airlines (with lots of planes setting idle) and set up a series of charter flights that would reduce the cost of repatriation.  Might not be cost effective for the cruise line to charter for a few crew going to various places in the US.  But if you looked at all of the ships sitting offshore near Florida or off the west coast and they all combined they might find that there are enough going to a particular set of cities to reduce costs significantly.  Then with testing they could work within the guidelines and get something done.

 

One of the things the CLIA indicated in their original  was that the cruise lines could cooperate to share resources.  No sign of that.

 

After 9/11 when commercial flights were stopped, the company I worked for had employees stuck in various cities around the US, including NYC.  In that mess we were able to charter a plane that flew into NYC, picked up the people there, and then proceeded to stop at 6 other cities on the way back to San Diego.  Relatively cost effective for the number of people, about 3 times the standard airline ticket cost at the time for all of the passengers picked up. 

Edited by npcl

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35 minutes ago, npcl said:

From the Visit Florida web site. 

 

All persons traveling to Florida from New York, New Jersey, Connecticut or Louisiana are required upon entry to Florida to self-isolate or self-quarantine for 14 days, or for the duration of their presence in the state, whichever is shorter. Roadside checkpoints are set up on interstates to check for potential COVID-19 cases coming into Florida from areas with substantial community spread of the virus. The checkpoints do not apply to commercial drivers or health workers. Click here and here for more information.

Not quite sure where it says anything about being tested there.  Also, those quarantines are not enforced so they might as well be useless.  Once again, there is no logic to the CDC requirements.  The CDC needs a major overhaul and they need to follow science and not their own biases.  When air travel has to follow the same CDC guidelines as cruise ship travel then maybe I will have some faith in their policies.   I see no reason why we cant just these crew members a test before they disembark.  If they are negative, allow them to go home.  Why is this so complicated?

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Fredric22 said:

Not quite sure where it says anything about being tested there.  Also, those quarantines are not enforced so they might as well be useless.  Once again, there is no logic to the CDC requirements.  The CDC needs a major overhaul and they need to follow science and not their own biases.  When air travel has to follow the same CDC guidelines as cruise ship travel then maybe I will have some faith in their policies.   I see no reason why we cant just these crew members a test before they disembark.  If they are negative, allow them to go home.  Why is this so complicated?

At first you said that there are nothing preventing people from going from NYC to Florida, now you are saying that they are not enforced.

 

Actually the CDC is  following science.  The CDC could take action on international flights, less so on domestic. Though the number of people flying internationally has dropped pretty significantly.

They have taken action because at one point, early in the outbreak, cruise ships accounted for 17% of identified cases in the US.  Because there are still COVID-19 cases on board the ships sitting off US shores. Also the CLIA did not follow through with the plan they proposed back in March (many of the items that CLIA included in their original plan are part of the requirements of the APril document), a plan that CLIA said that they could implement in 7 days.

 

 

The Florida should, like Hawaii and Alaska, enforce their quarantines. It is more the states that are relaxing restrictions before the data indicates significant enduring declines (trends of at least 14 days) in cases that are not following science.

 

Because a test by itself does not prove that someone is disease free, only that they is not a detectable level of virus at the time of the test.

 

More than that before any gets off the cruise lines must certify compliance with the health requirements, and they are not willing to do so.  

 

If it is just the CDC why doesn't the cruise line disembark their crew in Mexico (the ship is off shore Mexico at this time).  It either must be because Mexico own't let them either.  Or they are trying to create pressure on the CDC to reduce the requirements.  

Edited by npcl

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1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

...Third, every ship entering a US port has, since the founding of the country, had to provide an "attestation" that the ship is "healthy" (no sick crew or passengers) in order to receive "pratique" or clearance to enter port and conduct operations...  Without "pratique", the ship was placed in a quarantine anchorage until it was considered by the port officials to be "healthy".  There are new rules set by the USCG for this health attestation, which includes more information than previously, but it applies to every ship of every flag, including my ship, a US flag tanker, with 100% US citizens onboard.  It is not the US government that is at fault here, it is Carnival who refused to provide the attestation.

 

This crew member's "civil rights" as a US citizen became severely limited the moment she set foot on a foreign flag cruise ship, just as any passenger's rights change at the gangway.  Just because most people don't understand this, and blithely go on cruising, thinking they have all their US "rights", doesn't make it correct.

 

Amen ^^^^   Glad you said it.  Maybe posters here will understand that as you said, "Carnival refused to provide the attestation".  If they had complied the crew member would be home today.

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1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

First off, let me say that this person is not alone in being denied disembarkation from a ship.  For the last couple of months, tens of thousands of US citizens, serving on US flag ships have been denied the ability to get off the ship to either go home or just to go to a pharmacy to pick up a prescription at ports around the US.

 

Secondly, for the comment about allowing a US citizen entry into the US regardless of their medical condition, that is exactly what the mandate of the USPH/CDC is, to prevent the introduction of infectious diseases into the US, so they have, and have for decades, the right to do this.

 

Third, every ship entering a US port has, since the founding of the country, had to provide an "attestation" that the ship is "healthy" (no sick crew or passengers) in order to receive "pratique" or clearance to enter port and conduct operations.  This was first done in person to an official who came on the ship, but these days is done electronically.  Without "pratique", the ship was placed in a quarantine anchorage until it was considered by the port officials to be "healthy".  There are new rules set by the USCG for this health attestation, which includes more information than previously, but it applies to every ship of every flag, including my ship, a US flag tanker, with 100% US citizens onboard.  It is not the US government that is at fault here, it is Carnival who refused to provide the attestation.

 

This crew member's "civil rights" as a US citizen became severely limited the moment she set foot on a foreign flag cruise ship, just as any passenger's rights change at the gangway.  Just because most people don't understand this, and blithely go on cruising, thinking they have all their US "rights", doesn't make it correct.  The law onboard the ship is the law of the flag state, not the port the ship is in, or the nationality of the crew member.  And that law is embodied in the Captain by the flag state, and anyone acting under his direction is a "government agency" and does have legal power.  This person is wrong when she says she has no access to a lawyer while on the ship, she has a cell phone just like the rest of the world, and can contact one at any time.

 

Why did this happen, and why did Carnival not provide the attestation?  Because there were only 8 US crew, and the company would have had to provide private transportation from the ship to their home doorsteps.  Most likely they could not have even availed themselves of a single charter flight, since they likely came from various cities around the US.

 

While I feel for these people, I look at it in perspective.  Most port cities around the world do not allow crew changes from any ship, not just cruise ships.  There are, when operating normally, about 180,000 crew on all the cruise ships around the world.  However, other types of merchant shipping, ships that carry 80% of the world's economy, have 1.6 million crew onboard at any time, and they average 100,000 crew changes each and every month, and during the two months that the world has essentially been in lockdown, that has resulted in 200,000 crew not being able to crew change.  Tens of thousands of US citizens are among those mariners, and we have been on crew change "lockdown" for two months.  This is not a cruise ship problem, it is a world problem, because when the merchant mariners reach their statutory maximum time on a ship, and the ship cannot bring on new crew, these cargo ships, that are still working near normal levels, carrying the world's goods, will stop, and the world economy will crash.

 

Just to be clear:  The CDC's No-Sail Order (as modified and extended on April 15) applies to cruise ships only and not to cargo ships.  In Footnote 2 of the April 15 notice, the CDC explained:  "Given the substantial risk of person-to-person transmission of COVID-19, as opposed to transmission via indirect contact, this Order is currently limited to passenger, non-cargo vessels."

 

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/04/15/2020-07930/no-sail-order-and-suspension-of-further-embarkation-notice-of-modification-and-extension-and-other

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

However, other types of merchant shipping, ships that carry 80% of the world's economy, have 1.6 million crew onboard at any time, and they average 100,000 crew changes each and every month, and during the two months that the world has essentially been in lockdown, that has resulted in 200,000 crew not being able to crew change.  Tens of thousands of US citizens are among those mariners, and we have been on crew change "lockdown" for two months.  This is not a cruise ship problem, it is a world problem, because when the merchant mariners reach their statutory maximum time on a ship, and the ship cannot bring on new crew, these cargo ships, that are still working near normal levels, carrying the world's goods, will stop, and the world economy will crash.

 

Regarding your US flagged tanker, help me understand.  Do you come into US ports and if so what prevents the tanker company from providing the USCG attestation and sending you and others home?  The CDC order does not apply to cargo ships as DaveSJ711 stated above.

Edited by bluesea321

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55 minutes ago, DaveSJ711 said:

 

Just to be clear:  The CDC's No-Sail Order (as modified and extended on April 15) applies to cruise ships only and not to cargo ships.  In Footnote 2 of the April 15 notice, the CDC explained:  "Given the substantial risk of person-to-person transmission of COVID-19, as opposed to transmission via indirect contact, this Order is currently limited to passenger, non-cargo vessels."

 

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/04/15/2020-07930/no-sail-order-and-suspension-of-further-embarkation-notice-of-modification-and-extension-and-other

Yes, the CDC no sail order applies only to cruise ships, but the USCG notice requiring an attestation of health, when entering every port, even if the ship has never left the US applies to every ship.  And, the decision by various states and cities to not allow crew ashore or crew changes applies to all ships.  My friend, I'm here and I've been there, and I definitely have the tee shirt, and have crew currently onboard who have been affected by these restrictions.

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57 minutes ago, bluesea321 said:

 

Regarding your US flagged tanker, help me understand.  Do you come into US ports and if so what prevents the tanker company from providing the USCG attestation and sending you and others home?  The CDC order does not apply to cargo ships as DaveSJ711 stated above.

We do give a USCG attestation of health at every port.  However, the USCG's jurisdiction ends at the gangway, essentially, and state and local decisions on covid response will say that no crew can come off the ship onto the shore.  Hell, before the covid pandemic, US crew, as well as foreign, were restricted from leaving their ship while in a terminal in a US port, and it was only last year, after about a decade of this abuse, under the guise of "security", did the USCG make it mandatory, and accept enforcement, to force terminals to allow crew ashore.

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