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SS Future Re-Open Plan: Timing, Testing Needs??!!


TLCOhio
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8 hours ago, Bucephalus53 said:

 

Back to sailing, my wife and I have decided it us highly unlikely we will be sailing next year so we decided to use the refund for a significant home improvement instead.........

.........This board has been a tremendous help throughout the 2020 mess and I thank you.  

Thank you for these sentiments, it is exactly how Mrs Banjo and I are feeling.  I thank God every day for being healthy and having this board to keep our spirits up!

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I would love to drive to a cruise port and indeed did 15 years ago when Celebrity had cruises out of Galveston.  It only takes four hours to drive from San Antonio to Galveston while any other US embarkation ports would take several days.  Now, well at least when there was US based cruising, the lines cruising out of Galveston are not attractive to us.  To the best of my knowledge Silversea has never stopped in Galveston much less had a cruise or cruises originate there.   We won’t cruise just any line just to cruise.   

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1 hour ago, Randyk47 said:

I would love to drive to a cruise port and indeed did 15 years ago when Celebrity had cruises out of Galveston.  It only takes four hours to drive from San Antonio to Galveston while any other US embarkation ports would take several days.  Now, well at least when there was US based cruising, the lines cruising out of Galveston are not attractive to us.  To the best of my knowledge Silversea has never stopped in Galveston much less had a cruise or cruises originate there.   We won’t cruise just any line just to cruise.   

WE are very fortunate to live near Providence RI.  We can drive to New York City or Boston where cruises to Bermuda, Canada and along the East Cost to Florida have been offered in the past.  Like you, we won't cruise just any line, the ship and the IT are very important to us.

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36 minutes ago, crusinbanjo said:

WE are very fortunate to live near Providence RI.  We can drive to New York City or Boston where cruises to Bermuda, Canada and along the East Cost to Florida have been offered in the past.  Like you, we won't cruise just any line, the ship and the IT are very important to us.


The lines that have cruised out of Galveston include Carnival, Princess, Norwegian, Royal Caribbean, and Celebrity or at least those are the ones I remember.  I am not aware of any of the luxury lines like Regent, Seabourn, or Silversea ever cruising from there.  For the most part the itineraries are very limited and mostly 5 to 7-day Western Caribbean cruises.  When Celebrity cruised out of Galveston for four or five years in the mid 2000s they were doing 10 to 11-day partial Panama Canal transit cruises which is what we went on.   Galveston is in an awkward location for the Eastern and Southern Caribbean and rarely if ever have cruises to those destinations.  Not enough variety or right lines for us.   

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1 hour ago, Randyk47 said:

The lines that have cruised out of Galveston include Carnival, Princess, Norwegian, Royal Caribbean, and Celebrity or at least those are the ones I remember.  I am not aware of any of the luxury lines like Regent, Seabourn, or Silversea ever cruising from there.  For the most part the itineraries are very limited and mostly 5 to 7-day Western Caribbean cruises.  When Celebrity cruised out of Galveston for four or five years in the mid 2000s they were doing 10 to 11-day partial Panama Canal transit cruises which is what we went on.   Galveston is in an awkward location for the Eastern and Southern Caribbean and rarely if ever have cruises to those destinations.  Not enough variety or right lines for us.   

 

Appreciate these comments and follow-ups regarding "drive-in" cruises.  My guess is that most of these early sailing options will be targeted to and from the key ports in Florida.  Millions of people in that state and nearby.  Historically, it has been harder for ports in Texas, R.I., Maryland, etc., to attract the large numbers needed to make the economics work that well in sailing from these other locations.  As Randy correctly notes, Florida is a location that offers more flexibility as to attractive and interesting ports and destinations that can be reached and accessed from there.    

 

From the respected Washington, DC, government reporting site, The Hill, they had this headline yesterday: “Fauci warns US needs to 'hunker down' for fall, winter: 'It's not going to be easy'” with these highlights: “Anthony Fauci, the nation's top infectious diseases expert, warned Thursday that the U.S. should prepare for a difficult few months in the fight against COVID-19 as flu season approaches. 'We need to hunker down and get through this fall and winter because it’s not going to be easy,' Fauci said during a panel discussion with doctors from Harvard Medical School.  The director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases went on to warn against underestimating the pandemic’s potential to cause continued destruction.  Fauci, who was one of the world’s leading AIDS researchers in the 1980s, compared the coronavirus pandemic to the early days of HIV when the epidemic started with a few gay men to decades later with millions of deaths and infections. During Thursday’s panel, Fauci added that vaccine trials are 'progressing very well' and repeated his prediction that one will likely be available by the end of the year or by early 2021. Fauci also reiterated that different U.S. cities should expect to see post-Labor Day surges, with the expert saying last week that the country was heading into the fall with an 'unacceptably high' level of COVID-19 cases.”

 

These remarks make the pont that those hoping for a cruising re-start from U.S. ports to be happening in November or December might be fairly "optimistic".  Hopeful on a wish list, but probably not realistic!!??   Maybe for some limited cruises in early 2021?? 

 

Full story at:

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/public-global-health/515919-its-not-going-to-be-easy-fauci-warns-us-needs-to

 

THANKS!  Enjoy!  Terry in Ohio

 

Completed last summer Calgary, Jasper/Banff National Parks, Western Canada Rocky Mountaineer rail adventure, Vancouver, sailing up to Alaska, post-cruise excursion to Denali, etc.  Many visuals and details from our first in these scenic areas!  Live/blog at: 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2682584-live-terryohio-silver-muse-alaska-canadarockies-pix’s/

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6 hours ago, Randyk47 said:

WE are very fortunate to live near Providence RI.  We can drive to New York City or Boston

We are equally as lucky.  We in in West Hartford Ct which is exactly midway between NYC and Boston.  I will never forget the first cruise we took, it was on Queen Mary 2, its second voyage-the first was the crossing from hell when it ran into 100 foot waves in the Atlantic-there are Youtube clips of this you should watch.  It was filled with reporters for its maiden voyage and they were literally bouncing off walls and ceilings in the hall ways.  You all should check it out.  Anyhow, we took a limo from home to dock, did the Queens Grill so we skipped all the check in lines, new ship gorgeous.  I thought I could get used to this.  Then we discovered Silversea and small ship sailing.  We will never go back to Cunard or large ships.  Damn I miss it.  I just wished they sailed out of NYC or Boston with more variety in destinations.    

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21 hours ago, worldtraveller99 said:

There are UK lines which sail out of Southampton - which we could drive to. But then you spend 2 days each way in the English Channel - not much fun!

Silversea cruises to and from Tower Bridge ,London have been highlights of our European cruising experience over many years.

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One friend was critically ill at the start of it all. 60 years old, fit and healthy with no underlying health conditions.  Two other people died that we heard about through friends.  Horrendous virus.  We moved our June 2020 sailing on Silver spirit to a Cruise October 2021 though at the minute not sure if we will be going.  Will be watching how things go.  These days the virus seems to be a bit weaker as my sister has it now and it is just very mild cold symptoms, runny nose, sneezing and no cough and only reason she got tested is she is an OT.  She was totally shocked and says a lot of people coming into winter won’t realise it is COVID as she feels so well.

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5 minutes ago, Tudorcruisers said:

One friend was critically ill at the start of it all. 60 years old, fit and healthy with no underlying health conditions.  Two other people died that we heard about through friends.  Horrendous virus.  We moved our June 2020 sailing on Silver spirit to a Cruise October 2021 though at the minute not sure if we will be going.  Will be watching how things go.  These days the virus seems to be a bit weaker as my sister has it now and it is just very mild cold symptoms, runny nose, sneezing and no cough and only reason she got tested is she is an OT.  She was totally shocked and says a lot of people coming into winter won’t realise it is COVID as she feels so well.

Hope your sister will be ok.🙂  And now that we are going into the fall, looks like things may....(operative word) may....

get worse. People will have to be inside more---and of course the flu will be coming as usual.   Not sure how much

weaker the virus is really.  We are still having 40,000 cases per day and over 1,000 deaths per day👎

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24 minutes ago, Lois R said:

Hope your sister will be ok.🙂  And now that we are going into the fall, looks like things may....(operative word) may....

get worse. People will have to be inside more---and of course the flu will be coming as usual.   Not sure how much

weaker the virus is really.  We are still having 40,000 cases per day and over 1,000 deaths per day👎


I see no evidence the virus is weaker.  From the beginning there have been cases that presented like mild flu to the extreme of death within days of diagnosis.   Based on the reports my wife is sharing with me I see no significant change.  Mrs K is the chief of staff of an Army medical activity and gets daily reports and weekly briefings so she’s pretty current.   

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37 minutes ago, Randyk47 said:


I see no evidence the virus is weaker.  From the beginning there have been cases that presented like mild flu to the extreme of death within days of diagnosis.   Based on the reports my wife is sharing with me I see no significant change.  Mrs K is the chief of staff of an Army medical activity and gets daily reports and weekly briefings so she’s pretty current.   

Hi Randy, I didn't think it was weaker.  And from seeing Dr Fauci yesterday, that is pretty significant. He is the one I 

follow most of the time. 

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1 hour ago, Randyk47 said:

I see no evidence the virus is weaker.  From the beginning there have been cases that presented like mild flu to the extreme of death within days of diagnosis.   Based on the reports my wife is sharing with me I see no significant change.  Mrs K is the chief of staff of an Army medical activity and gets daily reports and weekly briefings so she’s pretty current.   

 

Very impressive background and position as to how Randy's wife is able to follow closely these Covid-19 issues.  Keep us posted as to the insights and background that you are learning.  Great sharing!!

 

From the Chicago Tribune and its sister publication, the LA Times, yesterday, they had this headline: “Dr. Anthony Fauci says life won’t return to normal until deep into 2021” with these highlights: Buckle up for a long ride ahead.  Dr. Anthony Fauci, the government’s top infectious disease expert, said Friday that normal times won’t replace America’s long coronavirus nightmare until deep into 2021, explaining that it will take months to widely administer a vaccine.  'But by the time you mobilize the distribution of the vaccine and get a majority or more of the population vaccinated and protected, that’s likely not going to happen until the end of 2021,' Fauci told MSNBC. 'If you’re talking about getting back to a degree of normality prior to COVID, it’s going to be well into 2021, maybe even towards the end of 2021.'  He also raised his concerns about reopening indoor dining as the weather cools.  'Being indoors absolutely increases the risk,' Fauci told MSNBC. 'I am concerned when I see things starting indoors, and that becomes more compelling when you move into fall and winter season.' ”

 

From yesterday's Miami Herald and the MSN News website, they had this headline:

“' 'Enough is enough': Commissioners and cruise execs urge CDC to let cruising resume” with these highlights: “Five months after South Florida became a hotbed for COVID-19 cruise outbreaks, Miami-Dade commissioners and cruise executives are urging the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to give the cruise industry the OK to restart sailings as soon as possible.  At a virtual tourism and ports committee meeting Thursday, Commissioner Rebeca Sosa scolded the federal health agency charged with the country’s public health response to COVID-19, saying it has been too slow to communicate with the industry and must work quickly to get cruising up and running again.  'The problem is it’s not fair that the CDC is not paying attention and communicating with the cruise industry,” Sosa said, citing the time between when cruise companies submitted plans to the agency regarding how to mitigate COVID-19 spread among crew in mid-April and the finalizing of those plans in late July. 'We cannot wait another 14 weeks.'  The meeting did not touch on safety concerns.  Commissioners didn’t ask executives for details about how to avoid the disease spread and complications that left hundreds of passengers at sea for weeks.   Sosa and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings CEO Frank Del Rio said cruise ships are no more dangerous than hotels or airplanes. That claim has been refuted by the CDC, which has repeatedly noted the unique challenge in preventing COVID-19 spread at sea.  Said Del Rio, 'It’s unconscionable what’s happened to the cruise industry. We’ve been quiet for too long.' ”

 

Much is in this highly-detailed story as to what's ALL has happened . . . AND NOT . . . since cruising has been shut down.  Clearly based on the announcements from Dr. Fauci and others during the past week, a vaccine and some type of "return to normal" will not be happening during the next few months.  This story from the newspaper at the center of the cruise industry in South Florida also noted: "Crew continue to contract COVID-19 aboard laid-up ships, according to CDC data obtained by the Miami Herald via a Freedom of Information Act request. At least seven ships in U.S. waters during the month of August reported COVID-19 or COVID-like illnesses to the CDC that month."

 

Clearly those such as Dr. Fauci and the CDC are not going to rush to approve a cruise re-opening.  Some passengers and cruise officials/employees might desire to have that approval happen sooner.  Officially, the CDC only has powers in U.S. waters, but other nations work with them and will respect many of their serious questions and concerns.  

 

Full stories at:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-coronavirus-dr-anthony-fauci-interview-20200911-2bmkhqe6fjaprm3eoxlwpgq7vq-story.html?int=lat_digitaladshouse_bx-modal_acquisition-subscriber_ngux_display-ad-interstitial_bx-bonus-story_______

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/enough-is-enough-commissioners-and-cruise-execs-urge-cdc-to-let-cruising-resume/ar-BB18UCmI

 

THANKS!  Enjoy!  Terry in Ohio

 

Barcelona/Med: June 2011, with stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Great visuals with key highlights, tips, etc. Live/blog now at 252,051 views.

www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

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16 hours ago, Lois R said:

Hope your sister will be ok.🙂  And now that we are going into the fall, looks like things may....(operative word) may....

get worse. People will have to be inside more---and of course the flu will be coming as usual.   Not sure how much

weaker the virus is really.  We are still having 40,000 cases per day and over 1,000 deaths per day👎

Interestingly in Australia there have been very few cases of flu this year. Many people were vaccinated and with people not going out as much, the season has been almost negligible. I take part in a weekly flu tracking exercise through one of the universities and the numbers are right down.

However, you in the US may have a different outcome as I understand that there are less restrictions and social distancing rules in many places.

All international cruising is banned here until mid December and I think this will be extended. We cancelled our Silver Muse NZ cruise in December as I am sure it is not going to happen but family situation meant we couldn't wait until SS cancelled. There are several states with closed borders and mandatory 14 quarantine for anyone arriving (and who must have a permit anyway). Things are not going to back to anything like pre-Covid for a very long time.

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2 hours ago, Aussieflyer said:

Interestingly in Australia there have been very few cases of flu this year. .

Good point.  I think that is going to happen here in the US.  The mitigation measures used to fight COVID will work for the flu too.  That is one small blessing from all of this.  Right now I am contemplating what to do this winter.  As I said above I live in Connecticut which is very cold and snowy.  I am staying sane by getting outside 3 or 4 times a week to play golf, walking 18 holes and recovering takes up a whole day.  I play some tennis too.  I absolutely dread the coming of winter.  There are now multiple studies on the aerosol transmission of COVID in closed indoor places, such as restaurants, which have them near the top of the list of where you don't want to be.  Articles have started to appear naming college campuses as serious sources of infection on a par with nursing homes, meatpacking plants and the like.  I expect colleges to start shutting down and on- campus learning during the next few weeks.  I unfortunately feel the same is going to happen to grade schools.  In short, things here are going to get much worse.  And then there will be the election and only god knows what is going to happen,  it could bring hundreds of thousands of people into the streets.  

 

In thinking what to do about this the thought came up of just decamping to some caribbean island for 4 or 5 months, renting a villa, not watch the news, staying off the computer, and going into a bubble.  But as I understand it, even small islands like St. Barts are having extreme COVID problems.  And as my wife points out if you get really sick there you are in big trouble because of their limited health care resources.  

 

So I am stuck with no Plan B.  I would ever consider a Silversea cruise to nowhere.  Embarking in a place like NYC which believe or not has an extremely low infection rate now.  Test crew and passengers like hell.  And sail for 90 days or so to who knows where.  Make it up as you sail,  go to places that are warm and relatively safe. and see who lets you come ashore.  That would really help getting through the coming winter.  Of course it would cost a fortune and I would gain 100 lbs or so but it could almost be worth it.   

 

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get through the next 4 or 5 month?   I bet Caribbean villas are renting like crazy now so that door is probably closing fast.  I am stuck, stranded on dry land with no clue as to what to do.  Stay safe.  

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31 minutes ago, chrism23 said:

Good point.  I think that is going to happen here in the US.  The mitigation measures used to fight COVID will work for the flu too.  That is one small blessing from all of this.  Right now I am contemplating what to do this winter.  As I said above I live in Connecticut which is very cold and snowy.  I am staying sane by getting outside 3 or 4 times a week to play golf, walking 18 holes and recovering takes up a whole day.  I play some tennis too.  I absolutely dread the coming of winter.  There are now multiple studies on the aerosol transmission of COVID in closed indoor places, such as restaurants, which have them near the top of the list of where you don't want to be.  Articles have started to appear naming college campuses as serious sources of infection on a par with nursing homes, meatpacking plants and the like.  I expect colleges to start shutting down and on- campus learning during the next few weeks.  I unfortunately feel the same is going to happen to grade schools.  In short, things here are going to get much worse.  And then there will be the election and only god knows what is going to happen,  it could bring hundreds of thousands of people into the streets.  

 

In thinking what to do about this the thought came up of just decamping to some caribbean island for 4 or 5 months, renting a villa, not watch the news, staying off the computer, and going into a bubble.  But as I understand it, even small islands like St. Barts are having extreme COVID problems.  And as my wife points out if you get really sick there you are in big trouble because of their limited health care resources.  

 

So I am stuck with no Plan B.  I would ever consider a Silversea cruise to nowhere.  Embarking in a place like NYC which believe or not has an extremely low infection rate now.  Test crew and passengers like hell.  And sail for 90 days or so to who knows where.  Make it up as you sail,  go to places that are warm and relatively safe. and see who lets you come ashore.  That would really help getting through the coming winter.  Of course it would cost a fortune and I would gain 100 lbs or so but it could almost be worth it.   

 

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get through the next 4 or 5 month?   I bet Caribbean villas are renting like crazy now so that door is probably closing fast.  I am stuck, stranded on dry land with no clue as to what to do.  Stay safe.  

Instead of Caribbean where as you say that  medical resources are not so good, what about somewhere warmer in the US itself for a block of time, maybe by the beach?. Friend has a son in California? at present who has rented a place elsewhere for a month to get away from the smoke from the fires. 

Good luck with a Plan B.

Still wouldn't be too happy cruising yet. Look at what happened on Hurtgruten and Ponant (in particular as they had strict rules  in place).

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2 hours ago, chrism23 said:

As I said above I live in Connecticut which is very cold and snowy.  I am staying sane by getting outside 3 or 4 times a week to play golf, walking 18 holes and recovering takes up a whole day.  I play some tennis too.  I absolutely dread the coming of winter.  

 

You sound like me.  I play golf a few times a week at our course.  We still do it very, very responsibly.  As soon as the s**t hit the fan, in April I ordered an electric push cart. I knew this was not "going away quickly".  I wasn't the only person, it took til beginning of August for me to get it!  And I live in a great walkable neighborhood.

The difference is, I live in Memphis. Even though it's hot now, our course is open all winter, and winter golf is really quite nice here.  I used to live in NH, and I would not want to spend this winter especially up north. 

 

Not cheap, but how about a place like Kiawah Island?? A VRBO or AirBnB 3 month rental?  Can you work from home?  If my husband worked from home, we would do it in a heartbeat!  

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We have friends in Delaware who live in a golf community and have made it through the summer pretty well.  Totally separate from the pandemic they spent last winter in a rental in Florida.  They reserved the same house for this coming winter and will head down that way after Christmas.   Because of the outbreak in March when they came back north this past spring they drove direct back to Delaware with their two dogs stopping only for the dogs, food, fuel, etc.  

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1 hour ago, kimanjo said:

I play golf a few times a week at our course.  We still do it very, very responsibly.  Not cheap, but how about a place like Kiawah Island?? A VRBO or AirBnB 3 month rental?  Can you work from home?  If my husband worked from home, we would do it in a heartbeat!  

 

Appreciate these various comments and follow-ups as to how we are preparing our options for this upcoming winter period.  Clearly, as of now, the cruise/flight options either will not be available and/or very limited.  Or, being unattractive and not worth the risks for our health and safety??!! 

 

From the American Bar Association's ABA Journal two days ago, they had this headline: “Causation is an issue in suits against cruise lines by passengers who contracted COVID-19” with these highlights: “Two federal judges last month dismissed cases filed by passengers who blamed Princess Cruise Lines for their COVID-19 illness.  The August rulings were among the first in the nation to address issues of injuries and causation, Law.com reports.  The cases demonstrate the difficulties of proving causation, according to Christopher Robinette, a professor at the Widener University Commonwealth Law School.  If people confined to a cruise ship for several weeks can’t demonstrate causation, it will be even more difficult for those suing other businesses for contracting COVID-19, Robinette said.  Miami lawyer Spencer Aronfeld, who has sued cruise lines in other COVID-19 cases, discussed the August rulings. 'These are not going to be easy cases,' he said.”

 

Here is another interesting angle from this story/analysis as to why filing lawsuits against cruise lines is not easy, simple and/or successful: "On Aug. 17, U.S. District Judge Dean Pregerson of the Central District of California dismissed a case by a Canadian couple diagnosed with COVID-19 after taking a trip departing from San Francisco on Princess Cruise Lines. In a transcript of a telephone hearing obtained by Law.com, Pregerson said plaintiffs who have minimal COVID-19 symptoms may not be able to show injuries.  Pregerson also asked why the plaintiffs thought they contracted COVID-19 from the ship. 'The fact that someone got illness doesn’t mean that there is a negligence,' Pregerson said."

 

Interesting legal point and question as to whether it is possible to prove in court that you are able to: "establish that negligenceby the cruise line.

 

Full story at:

https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/causation-an-issue-in-suits-against-cruise-lines-by-passengers-who-contracted-covid-19

 

THANKS!  Enjoy!  Terry in Ohio

 

Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle cruise from Copenhagen, July 2010, to the top of Europe. Scenic visuals with key tips. Live/blog at 240,380 views.

www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

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1 hour ago, TLCOhio said:

 

Appreciate these various comments and follow-ups as to how we are preparing our options for this upcoming winter

Thanks Terry and everyone else that had suggestions.  However, one of my main objectives is to get out of the United States for at least the period from late October to January.  There are some great places in Florida.  Kiawah Island is nice.  I have a friend winters on Jykill Isand in Georgia.  I love San Diego, especially La Jolla which is where I wanted to retire at one point in time.  Cancun has had a few problems with Mexican cartel in-fighting, every place in Mexico has for that matter even Cabo.  And I know that a Silversea sail to nowhere is just a pipe dream.  But I really feel, and I don't want to offend anyone here, that the US after the election is going to be a nightmare.  So it looks like I unplug my television, don't read the NYTimes every morning, and hunker down in West Hartford and save a lot of money while continuing to be very mindful in dodging the virus which I think will be exploding.  I apologize to all for being so doom and gloom, for me, its a sign of these crazy times.  Be safe.  Chris

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1 hour ago, chrism23 said:

I apologize to all for being so doom and gloom, for me, its a sign of these crazy times.

I think your comments are completely realistic and you shouldn't apologize. Maybe you will help others

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1 hour ago, chrism23 said:

Thanks Terry and everyone else that had suggestions.  However, one of my main objectives is to get out of the United States for at least the period from late October to January.  There are some great places in Florida.  Kiawah Island is nice.  I have a friend winters on Jykill Isand in Georgia.  I love San Diego, especially La Jolla which is where I wanted to retire at one point in time.   So it looks like I unplug my television, don't read the NYTimes every morning, and hunker down in West Hartford and save a lot of money while continuing to be very mindful in dodging the virus which I think will be exploding.  I apologize to all for being so doom and gloom, for me, its a sign of these crazy times.  Be safe.  Chris

 

Absolutely no need to apologize and/or feel guilty for having frustrations during these very uncertain and challenging times.  We are considering some "get-away time" in the Florida Keys where we could get there by driving, if needed, in late January.  Understand that interest to find a nice location outside of the United States.  Have you considered any options in Portugal??  Good and interesting locations there where the costs and access would not be too bad?

 

Good luck with your search for the right location, timing and connections. 

 

THANKS!  Enjoy!  Terry in Ohio

 

Sydney to NZ/Auckland Adventure, live/blog 2014 sampling/details with many exciting visuals and key highlights.  On page 23, post #571, see a complete index for all of the pictures, postings.  Now at 230,924 views.

www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1974139

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