Optimistic news from Carnival, pessimistic news from Norwegian.

[BermudaBound2014]

1 minute ago, rkacruiser said:

 

BB King, Rolling Stone Rock Room, and Billboard on Board work.  Lots of attendance.  Lincoln Center Live attract its own guests and is also well patronized.  

 

Vista class didn't have any of these last time I sailed her and I think this represents a really good mix. Lincoln Center keeps the more traditional cruiser engaged, and BBK/Rolling stone attract the younger Baby boomers/older Gen X crowd. I thought it interesting that HAL cut back so much on child programming and was thinking that if Virgin took off they might offer something up that was adult only. I absolutely think there are two markets that are still untapped in cruising: Adult only and solo. NCL made some headway with the solo concept, but the Joy didn't have a solo studio which makes me think that solo might not be profitable or at the very least the interior studio concept is saturated. 

[rkacruiser]

16 minutes ago, UPNYGuy said:

P&O, Princess, and HAL all compete for the same group as far as I can remember. 

 

At least for North American possible guests, P&O or P&O Australia should not be considered in any new cruise group combination with HAL and Princess, in my opinion.  I tried to book a P&O Australia cruise.  I have tried repeatedly to get a brochure/information for P&O.  Even working with an extremely experienced cruise oriented travel agency, they were unable to obtain a brochure or even attempt a booking.  For P&O Australia, to make a booking, I had to use an Australian or New Zealand travel agency or make a direct booking with the company.  

[rkacruiser]

5 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

Lincoln Center keeps the more traditional cruiser engaged, and BBK/Rolling stone attract the younger Baby boome

 

 

HAL's problem, as I see it, is that the older vessels cannot offer BBK, Rolling Stone, Lincoln Center, and Billboard on Board. on one vessel.  There isn't the room.

 

BBK, Lincoln Center Live, Billboard on Board can be accommodated on all of the vessels.  It seems that only the Pinnacle Class vessels can offer all of these options, particularly Rolling Stone Rock Room.  

 

If one likes such music, it was a pleasure to cross the corridor from Billboard on Board when their set was done to Rolling Stone Rock Room until their set was done.  And, then repeat it as one wished!  Want something different?  BB King may be playing just a short walk down the deck.

 

Given that this is a MSC Message Board, maybe we ought to transfer our discussion to a different Message Board?

[Beardface]

Always thought Princess was just the Caribbean version of P&O.  Wasn't until recently that I realized they were different.

 

Costa being consolidated within the Carnival brand makes sense.  Carnival is the bigger name, and after the Concordia sinking, I have felt like the Costa branding has taken a hit they've really not recovered from.  They could benefit from going full whale tail.

 

MSC and NCL seeing some kind of merger could also make sense.  Similar brand strategies with the ship within a ship that would be easy to sync across the board.  And NCL could really benefit from MSCs current strategy of lower up front cost while MSC would benefit from the NCL branding.  Seems like a win-win there.

[UPNYGuy]

41 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

At least for North American possible guests, P&O or P&O Australia should not be considered in any new cruise group combination with HAL and Princess, in my opinion.  I tried to book a P&O Australia cruise.  I have tried repeatedly to get a brochure/information for P&O.  Even working with an extremely experienced cruise oriented travel agency, they were unable to obtain a brochure or even attempt a booking.  For P&O Australia, to make a booking, I had to use an Australian or New Zealand travel agency or make a direct booking with the company.  

I have heard this from other sources as well. 

[UPNYGuy]

2 minutes ago, Beardface said:

Always thought Princess was just the Caribbean version of P&O.  Wasn't until recently that I realized they were different.

 

Costa being consolidated within the Carnival brand makes sense.  Carnival is the bigger name, and after the Concordia sinking, I have felt like the Costa branding has taken a hit they've really not recovered from.  They could benefit from going full whale tail.

 

MSC and NCL seeing some kind of merger could also make sense.  Similar brand strategies with the ship within a ship that would be easy to sync across the board.  And NCL could really benefit from MSCs current strategy of lower up front cost while MSC would benefit from the NCL branding.  Seems like a win-win there.

for me, the NCL branding would now be a turn-off (speaking from all the changes Frank Del Rio has made since Kevin Sheehan has departed), but I am likely in the minority. 
 

as long as MSC remained at the helm, I’d be good. 

[rkacruiser]

2 minutes ago, UPNYGuy said:

for me, the NCL branding would now be a turn-off (speaking from all the changes Frank Del Rio has made since Kevin Sheehan has departed), but I am likely in the minority. 
 

as long as MSC remained at the helm, I’d be good. 

 

As NCL is currently branded, I have no interest in making another booking.

 

My one experience, granted years ago on their primitive private island, was a very pleasant one and one that I remember.  (Maybe that's because of the sand flies bites during our island visit?)  

 

Based upon my 2020 MSC experience:  MSC needs to be in control of such a future combination.  

[UPNYGuy]

3 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

As NCL is currently branded, I have no interest in making another booking.

 

My one experience, granted years ago on their primitive private island, was a very pleasant one and one that I remember.  (Maybe that's because of the sand flies bites during our island visit?)  

 

Based upon my 2020 MSC experience:  MSC needs to be in control of such a future combination.  

I have been really impressed with MSC

[rkacruiser]

13 minutes ago, UPNYGuy said:

I have been really impressed with MSC

 

Agree.  What was a minus for me was the embarkation experience at Miami at Terminal F.  Maybe (?) when they get their own terminal built further South on Dodge Island it will help.  But, for those of MSC guests who drive, will the traffic and parking situations be any better?  

[Beardface]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

As NCL is currently branded, I have no interest in making another booking.

 

My one experience, granted years ago on their primitive private island, was a very pleasant one and one that I remember.  (Maybe that's because of the sand flies bites during our island visit?)  

 

Based upon my 2020 MSC experience:  MSC needs to be in control of such a future combination.  

Agreed.

 

I'm just saying, to the American consumer, NCL is the more recognizable brand.  If the two merged I could see NCL being the flag in North America and MSC being the flag elsewhere, with MSC running the show.  Meaning NCL would adjust their business practice to align with MSC, down to pricing and amenities, just that the amenities are tailored specifically for the US market while MSC stays European.  Hell, I'd even go so far as to say they would move the Seaside to NCL branding to help smooth those waters.

 

The more I think about it the more it makes too much sense.  This could be a huge opportunity for MSC if they play it right.

 

[Cruiser Bruiser]

I would guess that NCLH (the holding company for NCL, Oceana and Regent Seven Seas) would be purchased outright by some equity fund and then the brands and/or ships would be sold off to pay down debt. I could see Carnival Corp or RCI purchasing the smaller ships to supplement their existing fleets, or operating the brands independently.

 

NCL's largest ships are problematic for a variety of other brands: the top decks are crowded and pools are minimal. None of NCL"s ships have an enclosed pool, for example. And they have too many specialty restaurants. I think they would be very expensive to modify. Given that a lot of MSC's identity is embodied in their ship designs, I cannot imagine MSC would want any of NCLH's existing fleet, especially the large ships. Meraviglia, Grandiosa, Seaside, Seaside Evo, World Class, MSC knows how to build ships.

[UPNYGuy]

10 hours ago, Cruiser Bruiser said:

I would guess that NCLH (the holding company for NCL, Oceana and Regent Seven Seas) would be purchased outright by some equity fund and then the brands and/or ships would be sold off to pay down debt. I could see Carnival Corp or RCI purchasing the smaller ships to supplement their existing fleets, or operating the brands independently.

 

NCL's largest ships are problematic for a variety of other brands: the top decks are crowded and pools are minimal. None of NCL"s ships have an enclosed pool, for example. And they have too many specialty restaurants. I think they would be very expensive to modify. Given that a lot of MSC's identity is embodied in their ship designs, I cannot imagine MSC would want any of NCLH's existing fleet, especially the large ships. Meraviglia, Grandiosa, Seaside, Seaside Evo, World Class, MSC knows how to build ships.

Oh believe me, I am definitely not debating the fact that MSC is inexperienced with building ships (seaside is my fave). We were just shooting the breeze and having a hypothetical discussion. Actually I would prefer Norwegian stay as is and go alone. While they are not my preferred cruise line, they definitely are for some people. 

[dexddd]

16 hours ago, UPNYGuy said:

 

well, MSC has been rapidly expanding, and that would give them the wherewithal to do it in one fell swoop. MSC is also privately owned, and the subsidiary of a very large shipping company. They definitely have the funding to do it. Plus, the design of the NCL ships would fit in (in a way) with the MSC fleet. MSC has the yacht club, and Norwegian has the Haven. The Decor is different, but that is less of an issue. Ships could be deployed as part of a branded effort (Norwegian by MSC). Plus, with the amount of ships that MSC has on order and have not been built, might be a cheap way to expand operations if Norwegian goes bust. 
 

granted this is all speculation and I am not in any way shape or form wishing for Norwegian to go bankrupt.

 

I apologize if there are grammatical mistakes in this, and if this is really wordy. I was using the Siri feature on my iPad to write this all out. 

I've said this twice early on and my posts got deleted.

 

I agree that would be a good fit but would need to purge most top management looking to make experience worse, for your convenience, of course.

[dexddd]

13 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

An interesting question.  Epic was to have a sister ship built if I recall correctly.  The cost over runs for Epic (and delays, I think?) escalated NCL's cost for the ship and it's unusual stateroom design for some staterooms that was not well accepted resulted in the cancellation of the option for a second ship.  Today, in my opinion, it is an ugly ship.  

The recession hit.  As far as delays and costs, seem to recall part of that but pretty sure Epic had not even sailed when second ship was cancelled with a fairly large penalty.

[dexddd]

12 hours ago, UPNYGuy said:

for me, the NCL branding would now be a turn-off (speaking from all the changes Frank Del Rio has made since Kevin Sheehan has departed), but I am likely in the minority. 
 

as long as MSC remained at the helm, I’d be good. 

Not sure if in minority.  We are Plat Plus, sail Haven and FDR has basically turned us off to return.

 

The silent majority same way.  If you follow the regulars and old timers on the NCL threads, most are gone and or seen elsewhere.  Even on Carnival boards!

[dexddd]

The thing with NCL ships is they've evolved like MSC.

 

The other thing is most of the fleet has had recent, vast drydocks to make them look quite new.

 

NCL fills specialties with their promos with a fee.  On MSC the guests don't seem too interested.  If acquired maybe they could convert some to rooms.

[UPNYGuy]

32 minutes ago, dexddd said:

Not sure if in minority.  We are Plat Plus, sail Haven and FDR has basically turned us off to return.

 

The silent majority same way.  If you follow the regulars and old timers on the NCL threads, most are gone and or seen elsewhere.  Even on Carnival boards!

we are platinum on NCL, but lately have been alternating between MSC and Carnival. With the occasional Royal Caribbean sailing thrown in. We have also been doing Oceania from time to time but that is quite rare. 

[UPNYGuy]

31 minutes ago, dexddd said:

The other thing is most of the fleet has had recent, vast drydocks to make them look quite new.

I have been on Gem since Norwegian NEXT. Actually, it was shortly after it left the drydock. That was one of my last times on NCL. (cruise directly after on Getaway WAS my last). If I am thinking about it, we haven’t been on NCL in 4 or 5 years. Ship looked great, service left a bit to be desired. Getaway was just dreadful service wise though.

 

 Cruise on the Gem was when all the nickel and dime stuff returned, up charges up the ass started, no outside beverages were allowed on the ships, no food outside of dining areas, stuff like that. 
 

it put me off of NCL. All the policies they enacted were blatantly disregarding the passengers. 

Edited May 6, 2020 by UPNYGuy

[dexddd]

Yep, death by a thousand cuts.

 

I've only read from others about FDR's history in cruising before NCL and that didn't end well.  Seems fate now nearly the same. Can't say bad luck as probably has money in bank.

[Cruising89143]

NCL found some money.

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/22898-norwegian-raises-2-billion-over-1-year-of-cash-if-needed.html

[UPNYGuy]

43 minutes ago, dexddd said:

Not sure if in minority.  We are Plat Plus, sail Haven and FDR has basically turned us off to return.

 

The silent majority same way.  If you follow the regulars and old timers on the NCL threads, most are gone and or seen elsewhere.  Even on Carnival boards!

we used to sail Haven too. We have 2 bookings in the YC now, and have been more than satisfied with the standard suites on MSC. We are black/diamond, and get all the associated perks. The expedited embarkation alone with Haven is it enough to justify it, as we get that just being black/diamond. We also have an upcoming working on carnival vista in the Havana area. It will be interesting to compare the Havana to the Haven and the yacht club. 
 

obviously the Havana is nowhere near as extensive, but it is also significantly less expensive. 

[UPNYGuy]

2 minutes ago, dexddd said:

Yep, death by a thousand cuts.

 

I've only read from others about FDR's history in cruising before NCL and that didn't end well.  Seems fate now nearly the same. Can't say bad luck as probably has money in bank.

thing is, if you roll on over to the regent board he has his fervent defenders that think he’s actually saving Norwegian. 🤦🏻‍♂️ 

I honestly do not understand that logic, you cannot run a luxury cruise line in the same manner that you run in mass-market line. The demographics converge slightly with the Haven, but there is a small piece of the pie. Even then, the Haven was originally conceived to give family cruisers a taste of luxury, it only recently turned into giving luxury cruisers a taste of the big ship life. 

[Beardface]

11 hours ago, Cruiser Bruiser said:

I would guess that NCLH (the holding company for NCL, Oceana and Regent Seven Seas) would be purchased outright by some equity fund and then the brands and/or ships would be sold off to pay down debt. I could see Carnival Corp or RCI purchasing the smaller ships to supplement their existing fleets, or operating the brands independently.

 

NCL's largest ships are problematic for a variety of other brands: the top decks are crowded and pools are minimal. None of NCL"s ships have an enclosed pool, for example. And they have too many specialty restaurants. I think they would be very expensive to modify. Given that a lot of MSC's identity is embodied in their ship designs, I cannot imagine MSC would want any of NCLH's existing fleet, especially the large ships. Meraviglia, Grandiosa, Seaside, Seaside Evo, World Class, MSC knows how to build ships.

 

If NCLH is nearing bankruptcy, there is going to be a deal to be had for a competitor to purchase them or merge with them on the cheap.  If that happens, I would expect drydock renovations in the near future for some of their ships (looking at you, Breakaway Plus Class) to bring them more in line with what you'd expect with MSC.

 

Also, NCL already has an agreement with Fincantieri to build 6 Project Leonardo ships, based on the same basic design as the Seaside Class with MSC

 

 

Construction on the first of this class hasn't started, yet, and the details of the design haven't been officially announced.  This would be a great opportunity for MSC to use this class, the first of which are due for delivery in 2022, to effectively align the two brands going forward.

[Beardface]

6 minutes ago, UPNYGuy said:

we used to sail Haven too. We have 2 bookings in the YC now, and have been more than satisfied with the standard suites on MSC. We are black/diamond, and get all the associated perks. The expedited embarkation alone with Haven is it enough to justify it, as we get that just being black/diamond. We also have an upcoming working on carnival vista in the Havana area. It will be interesting to compare the Havana to the Haven and the yacht club. 
 

obviously the Havana is nowhere near as extensive, but it is also significantly less expensive. 

 

 

I'm interested to try the Havana in Carnival at some point, but I'll be honest... if I were to sail Carnival, I'm looking at a Cove Balcony.  I wish more lines would have balconies like that, low and below the lifeboats.

[Cruiser Bruiser]

1 hour ago, dexddd said:

Not sure if in minority.  We are Plat Plus, sail Haven and FDR has basically turned us off to return.

 

The silent majority same way.  If you follow the regulars and old timers on the NCL threads, most are gone and or seen elsewhere.  Even on Carnival boards!

You're not alone. I had sixteen cruises on NCL (Platinum), but I'm done with them. My last cruise with NCL was in May 2019 on Epic in the Mediterranean. I accidentally ordered a "Tanqueray and tonic" in the Epic Theater; it cost $21.50. For the cost of ten more drinks on NCL, I could have had the Easy Package on MSC (with water! with espresso drinks!).

 

When I gave up on NCL, I thought that HAL would become my new home. I have nine cruises on HAL (3* Mariner), and there is a lot that I like about their product. Their Pinnacle-class ships, however, have been so popular that HAL has been able to sustain significant price increases. With MSC, I get the traditional cruise experience I like on HAL mixed with the fun, lively vibe I liked on NCL. All at an affordable price. I'm only two cruises in on MSC, but I have two more booked and more planned. So long as the MSC brand stays on course, I will be with MSC for a long while.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Cruiser Bruiser