Time for Holland and Seabourn to be one

[rkacruiser]

Several years ago, Cunard tried to enter the small ship cruise market with Cunard Ambassador and Cunard Adventurer followed by Cunard Princess and Cunard Countess.  It didn't work.  The Cunard product on the Cunard's small ships did not match the Cunard product on their large ships.  

 

I see the same result happening if Seabourn and HAL were to merge.    

[Himself]

10 hours ago, Krazy Kruizers said:

It is possible for them to merge and stay the way there are now.  But eventually in time Seabourn will change.

 

When Carnival bought HAL in 1989, HAL stayed the same for several years.  Sadly HAL has changed and some of the changes have not been positive for most of us.

I was getting ready to board the Volendam a number of years ago.  The Zuiderdam was in port and a gentleman pointed to the Volendam and said this is the last of the Holland Ships.  He then pointed to the Zuiderdam  and called the first of  Carnival Ships on the Holland America Line.  It was then we started to see changes.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

Several years ago, Cunard tried to enter the small ship cruise market with Cunard Ambassador and Cunard Adventurer followed by Cunard Princess and Cunard Countess.  It didn't work.  The Cunard product on the Cunard's small ships did not match the Cunard product on their large ships.  

 

I see the same result happening if Seabourn and HAL were to merge.    

 

Cunard Adventurer and Ambassador date back to 1971-2 -- that's more than a few years ago, it's nearly 50 years!  I'm not saying it would definitely work now, but I wouldn't count something out that was tried and failed half a century ago. (Much like people always used to bring up that "non smoking" ships wouldn't work because one Carnival ship had tried it and it failed....)

 

[DFD1]

The worst night I ever had at sea was on Cunard Countess, one of the Cunard smaller ships. We were sailing from Charleston to Hamilton in a very mad and mean Atlantic storm. Everyone sent to their staterooms to bed and asked to remain there 'til morning.

 

I think the Countess or the Ambassador burned later somewhere south west of Key West.

 

Anyway, Cunard phased out the whole idea.

[rkacruiser]

44 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Cunard Adventurer and Ambassador date back to 1971-2 -- that's more than a few years ago, it's nearly 50 years!  I'm not saying it would definitely work now, but I wouldn't count something out that was tried and failed half a century ago. (Much like people always used to bring up that "non smoking" ships wouldn't work because one Carnival ship had tried it and it failed....)

 

 

Why did it not work for Cunard?   If such a thought of merging HAL with Seabourn is being considered,  someone(s) at the Corporate level need to do some research to determine why this attempt to integrate small ships into a company known for larger ships with a significant quality product reputation failed.  There are questions that need to be answered before such a merger takes place, in my opinion.

[rkacruiser]

2 minutes ago, DFD1 said:

I think the Countess or the Ambassador burned later somewhere south west of Key West.

 

 

Don't recall the geographic location, but I think it was the Adventurer that was lost due to fire.  She was not carrying passengers if I recall correctly.  

[DFD1]

Perhaps you're right about the Adventurer. I remembered she was without passengers, the remainder of the story is foggy in my memory. I do, however, remember the awful night on Countess.

[rkacruiser]

11 minutes ago, DFD1 said:

Perhaps you're right about the Adventurer. I remembered she was without passengers, the remainder of the story is foggy in my memory. I do, however, remember the awful night on Countess.

 

I am not right.  I Googled the two ships.  Ambassador was the one that was lost because of a fire.  The Adventurer eventually became NCL's Sunward II.  I sailed on her for my sole NCL cruise.  (This cruise was the best value for price paid I have had.)   Please forgive a confused memory!

Edited May 13, 2020 by rkacruiser

[FredT]

17 minutes ago, DFD1 said:

The worst night I ever had at sea was on Cunard Countess, one of the Cunard smaller ships. We were sailing from Charleston to Hamilton in a very mad and mean Atlantic storm. Everyone sent to their staterooms to bed and asked to remain there 'til morning.

 

I think the Countess or the Ambassador burned later somewhere south west of Key West.

 

Anyway, Cunard phased out the whole idea.

No, the Countess was sold and sailed under a couple other names before she had a fire while being rebuilt (In Greece) and then sold to the scrap yards.  The only reason I know all this is because we were on her on our Honeymoon in 1980.  (So she has always be close to our hearts) 

[FredT]

More to the point of the thread,   I see Princess merging with P & O UK AND P & O Australia as a better bet.  

[DFD1]

5 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I am not right.  I Googled the two ships.  Ambassador was the one that was lost because of a fire.  The Adventurer eventually became NCL's Sunward II.  I sailed on her for my sole NCL cruise.  (This cruise was the best value for price paid I have had.)   Please forgive a confused memory!

 

Interesting. I sailed on Sunward II two or three times with my pre-teen son...who is now 52...and he had a great, great time. I had no idea she was the Adventurer. Good to know.

[rkacruiser]

12 minutes ago, FredT said:

More to the point of the thread,   I see Princess merging with P & O UK AND P & O Australia as a better bet.  

 

That's my thinking as well.  I have never understood why there was an UK and an Australia branch of P&O.  If my memory is correct, there was a time when the Princess ships carried a P&O indication on the side of their hull.  Several of the P&O ships are "sisters" of the Princess ships in their design.    

[TN Fem]

9 hours ago, rafinmd said:

How about HAL and Cunard.  I think they have a lot more in common than HAL and Princess.

 

Roy

this seems more likely. They are very similar.

 

Why not rebrand HAL and Princess under the Cunard brand. 

[eroller]

28 minutes ago, TN Fem said:

this seems more likely. They are very similar.

 

Why not rebrand HAL and Princess under the Cunard brand. 

 

 

Cunard is its own animal.  Formality, structure, tradition.  I love Cunard but they are very unlike both Princess and HAL.  Very few speciality dining options, two set seatings for dinner (in Britannia), you eat with the same people every night, no open-dining option except the buffet, jacket required every single night after 6pm.  Cunard is a niche brand.  It's also very British and not American-centric.  HAL and Princess are both more mass-market and very Americanized.  They are the two most similar brands in the Carnival portfolio with lots of overlap, especially Alaska.  They essentially market to the same demographic, with HAL being slightly older overall.    

Edited May 14, 2020 by eroller

[conwakr]

Seabourn and HAL no...too many differences. Princess has a very strong brand and has I think a sweet spot with demographics not too young not too old. It will be an interesting exercise for the corporation to figure out what to do with HAL.


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[Janet76]

Question is are you willing to pay more.  Seabourn is double the cost of HAL for similar cruise.  

[ski ww]

15 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Why did it not work for Cunard?   If such a thought of merging HAL with Seabourn is being considered,  someone(s) at the Corporate level need to do some research to determine why this attempt to integrate small ships into a company known for larger ships with a significant quality product reputation failed.  There are questions that need to be answered before such a merger takes place, in my opinion.

I don't think that corporate is thinking of merging, these are just ideas that posters are putting out there as a what if??

[iancal]

I suspect many HAL cruisers would not be willing to pay the increased fares even though they say they are willing to pay more.  Easy to say until it comes time to write the cheque or submit the crediit card.

 

I suspect many Seabourn customers would not be willing to accept the downgrade in the on board environment.   Not to mention the different demographics.

 

I think this is more of a fantasy with people who still cling to the notion  that HAL is some sort of a premium cruise line instead of the mass market cruise line that they are.  But who really knows.....time will tell.  

Edited May 14, 2020 by iancal

[SAPMAN]

I don't understand why cruise lines under the same umbrella don't merge their Loyalty programs. Different earning points based on Line, price, cabin, etc.  I think many Elites would try a sister ship if they had many of the perks rather than starting at 0.

[eroller]

25 minutes ago, SAPMAN said:

I don't understand why cruise lines under the same umbrella don't merge their Loyalty programs. Different earning points based on Line, price, cabin, etc.  I think many Elites would try a sister ship if they had many of the perks rather than starting at 0.

 

 

This is one reason I prefer to sail on the Royal Caribbean family of brands.  While the loyalty programs are not combined, benefit levels are equally provided across all brands.  For instance, if you reach Diamond level on Royal Caribbean, you will automatically be at that same loyalty level on sister brands Celebrity and Azamara ... and vice versa.  

[FredT]

2 hours ago, iancal said:

I suspect many HAL cruisers would not be willing to pay the increased fares even though they say they are willing to pay more.  Easy to say until it comes time to write the cheque or submit the crediit card.

 

Have to admit, I am one of those people...   Love to look at Seabourn itineraries,  love to shop around, but keep coming back to HAL because the price is right in the sweet spot (about 100-150 pp per day) and the itineraries are always interesting.   

 

Have to say though, now with the prices rising to the $200 pp per day range, I am looking more at other (cheaper) alternatives.   May change once we are retired, but then again it may go the other way.   (Especially with this damn virus screwing up things!)

[SAPMAN]

1 hour ago, eroller said:

 

 

This is one reason I prefer to sail on the Royal Caribbean family of brands.  While the loyalty programs are not combined, benefit levels are equally provided across all brands.  For instance, if you reach Diamond level on Royal Caribbean, you will automatically be at that same loyalty level on sister brands Celebrity and Azamara ... and vice versa.  

I did not know that.  This policy likely gets many to try other sister lines vs. trying some other line.  HAL take note. 

[Happily@Sea]

On 5/13/2020 at 8:34 AM, Lido - Lanai said:

God help us --- then Princess will be overrun with knitters !

 

 And HAL would become even louder than it has with its Pinnacle Class.

 

Lately, Princess seems to be competing with Carnival for noise - Hopefully it is only at the sailaways.

 

And the reason I only did one cruise on a medium sized RCI ship, plus having to wait for my room upon boarding.

 

[rkacruiser]

3 hours ago, SAPMAN said:

I don't understand why cruise lines under the same umbrella don't merge their Loyalty programs. Different earning points based on Line, price, cabin, etc.  I think many Elites would try a sister ship if they had many of the perks rather than starting at 0.

 

The ability to use my Mariner Society status by enrolling in MSC's Voyagers Club and then make a booking was one reason that I was attracted to trying the MSC cruise product.  As a 5 Star Mariner, I was awarded Diamond level status with MSC, their highest level with all of the perks associated with it.  

[eroller]

3 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

The ability to use my Mariner Society status by enrolling in MSC's Voyagers Club and then make a booking was one reason that I was attracted to trying the MSC cruise product.  As a 5 Star Mariner, I was awarded Diamond level status with MSC, their highest level with all of the perks associated with it.  

 

 

The status match was a masterful piece of marketing by MSC.  I'm also Diamond level on MSC thanks to the status match, and so far have sailed on them 4 times.  They got my business!