Covid-19 Testing

[gizfish]

56 minutes ago, ray98 said:

 

.....that has yet to be proven.  The first studies are coming out now with negatives.  It will probably be the next CDC reversal after the touch contamination.

 

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32405162/?fbclid=IwAR0ruuH149NLVTJIfyWctQIwPMwuBGByIlTdw29xG8MPk1crkxSeUNXqaoo

 

Abstract

Background: An ongoing outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) has spread around the world. It is debatable whether asymptomatic COVID-19 virus carriers are contagious. We report here a case of the asymptomatic patient and present clinical characteristics of 455 contacts, which aims to study the infectivity of asymptomatic carriers.

Material and methods: 455 contacts who were exposed to the asymptomatic COVID-19 virus carrier became the subjects of our research. They were divided into three groups: 35 patients, 196 family members and 224 hospital staffs. We extracted their epidemiological information, clinical records, auxiliary examination results and therapeutic schedules.

Results: The median contact time for patients was four days and that for family members was five days. Cardiovascular disease accounted for 25% among original diseases of patients. Apart from hospital staffs, both patients and family members were isolated medically. During the quarantine, seven patients plus one family member appeared new respiratory symptoms, where fever was the most common one. The blood counts in most contacts were within a normal range. All CT images showed no sign of COVID-19 infection. No severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infections was detected in 455 contacts by nucleic acid test.

Conclusion: In summary, all the 455 contacts were excluded from SARS-CoV-2 infection and we conclude that the infectivity of some asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 carriers might be weak.

First off, if you continued following the info on the CDC CHANGE in organizing their page, you would know it was not at all a reversal on touching things being a possible, albeit not usual, way to get covid-19.  The headlines about this originally made it seem like the CDC was now giving new info about objects.  In fact they just reorganized their page, and the info about how touching objects can lead to getting the virus but is not the most common way to get it is still there.  New articles, and the CDC themselves have been

[gizfish]

24 minutes ago, gizfish said:

First off, if you continued following the info on the CDC CHANGE in organizing their page, you would know it was not at all a reversal on touching things being a possible, albeit not usual, way to get covid-19.  The headlines about this originally made it seem like the CDC was now giving new info about objects.  In fact they just reorganized their page, and the info about how touching objects can lead to getting the virus but is not the most common way to get it is still there.  New articles, and the CDC themselves have been

Sorry, I hit save before finishing and was unable to edit my post.

 

 

First off, if you continued following the info on the CDC change (NOT REVERSAL)  in organizing their page, you would know it was not at all a reversal on touching things being a possible, albeit not usual, way to get covid-19.  The headlines about this originally made it seem like the CDC was now giving new info about objects.  In fact they just reorganized their page, and the info about how touching objects can lead to getting the virus but is not the most common way to get it is still there.  New articles, and the CDC themselves have been quite clear that nothing has changed regarding the warning about touching objects and then touching the face, mouth, nose, eyes being a possible way to get Covid 19.  

 

Another thing to bear in mind is the study you cite only followed ONE asymptomatic person.  On average, a person with covid 19 infects 2 to 3 others (when nothing preventative is being done like wearing masks, staying away from others, etc.)  Although this study doesn't say it, it appears as if the person in the study was some sort of hospital worker based on all the hospital staff and patients that were followed.  Odds are the person being followed may have been wearing a mask for many of the contacts since they were in a healthcare setting.  Bottom line is that this study of only one person did not find the usual 2 to 3 infections which really does not say much about whether asymptomatic people are spreading the disease.  All the cases of community spread and the numbers of cases that continue to grow when so many people are testing positive and being asymptomatic speak more loudly that asymptomatic spread is real.

 

Bottom line, the fact remains that people who get covid 19 are asymptomatic for about two days before they become symptomatic.  So regardless of whether people test positive and stay asymptomatic or not, everyone who is going to eventually test positive has the protentional to be infecting others during the days before they become symptomatic, and therefore, everyone needs to realize they are a potential carrier and behave accordingly.

[OceanBlueWaters]

20 hours ago, PortFees45 said:

South Korea set the global standard on how to effectively combat this virus. 

 

I always love it when people say "America is the best country in the world!" Really? 

You are free to leave this wonderful Country at any time.  Why would you post this?

 

So sad. Please exit our Country and find residence elsewhere.  Keep us informed about your whereabouts if/when you left.

 

Good grief...

[PortFees45]

27 minutes ago, OceanBlueWaters said:

You are free to leave this wonderful Country at any time.  Why would you post this?

 

So sad. Please exit our Country and find residence elsewhere.  Keep us informed about your whereabouts if/when you left.

 

Good grief...

Why would I post this? Because I hate seeing the needless deaths of tens of thousands of my fellow American citizens. It doesn't seem to bother you. 

 

And thanks for your suggestion, but I'm not going anywhere. Patriots try to make their country better. By any metric South Korea did a better job with this virus than we did. I'm an adult so I can understand (and be appropriately ashamed by) that without having some nationalist hissy fit. Loving your country doesn't mean ignoring its failings. 

 

South Park made an episode about people like you. 

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by PortFees45

[Beach Life 1]

1 hour ago, ray98 said:

 

 

Your own link from March 9th says 500 cases in the US.  Cruising stopped 4 days later.

Yes,  566 cases and 22 deaths,   not 100 cases and no deaths as someone else  stated. 

[OceanBlueWaters]

19 hours ago, chipmaster said:

 

This is a challenging moral and social question.

 

The evidence suggest kids are very low risk, but seems to be a lot of press in the US about some strange illness among here, not a surprise something not seen in Far East or Europe as US has likely the highest case of obesity, allergies and diabetes among children, why would it be a surprise when a new bug comes it hits them harder.

 

Then kids are low risk, need the social as well as educational, those are huge benefits to them and society, what is the cost of them being spreaders taking it back to others homes ?   

 

I can't answer for others,, but I think schools should open with aggressive screening for temperature, cough etc.  and mandatory masks and changes in protocol for recess, meals and classroom distancing.  

 

Schools are open in the Far East and the disease hasn't exploded, oh yeah those countries wear mask, hmmm, LOL

Schools/Colleges are still figuring out about classes in Fall.  They can't even figure out how to have High School Graduation.  Cancelled.  I COULD FIGURE THAT OUT! Enormous Football field!  But politics tells me I have to stay home and screw our graduates.  No graduation, and  LOCKDOWN prevented all of our beautiful future leaders to not have a Graduation because people smarter than me said STAY HOME without even having a plan.

 

Cruise Lines still don't have a plan.  I don't want my want my kids enclosed in Plexiglass like caged animals if/when schools open again.  Education is a priority versus Cruise...

 

Are Cruise Lines gonna put me in a plexiglass container like students?  6 feet apart at the bar?  Dining?  TBD.  No one knows...

 

JMO 🙂

[PortFees45]

7 minutes ago, OceanBlueWaters said:

Schools/Colleges are still figuring out about classes in Fall.  They can't even figure out how to have High School Graduation.  Cancelled.  I COULD FIGURE THAT OUT! Enormous Football field!  But politics tells me I have to stay home and screw our graduates.  🙂

No, public health officials and scientists who know more about the reality of this virus than you do told you to stay home, and you should thank them for it. At least you correctly realized they're smarter than you. 

 

No ceremony is worth people dying. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by PortFees45

[seaman11]

1 minute ago, PortFees45 said:

No, public health officials and scientists who know more about the reality of this virus than you do told you to stay home. 

I think it was a good thing and saved lives, but it cant last forever.  the economy will collapse. when they lift the block on evictions, many will be homeless.  

 

the approach should be somewhere in the middle. open up slowly but dont go crazy with gatherings right away. And Let seamen set sail by august. 

[ColeThornton]

11 minutes ago, OceanBlueWaters said:

Schools/Colleges are still figuring out about classes in Fall.  They can't even figure out how to have High School Graduation.  Cancelled.  I COULD FIGURE THAT OUT! Enormous Football field!  But politics tells me I have to stay home and screw our graduates

 

 

That last sentence could have been worded better.  LOL

Edited May 25, 2020 by ColeThornton

[OceanBlueWaters]

23 minutes ago, PortFees45 said:

Why would I post this? Because I hate seeing the needless deaths of tens of thousands of my fellow American citizens. It doesn't seem to bother you. 

 

And thanks for your suggestion, but I'm not going anywhere. Patriots try to make their country better. By any metric South Korea did a better job with this virus than we did. I'm an adult so I can understand (and be appropriately ashamed by) that without having some nationalist hissy fit. Loving your country doesn't mean ignoring its failings. 

 

South Park made an episode about people like you. 

 

Good grief.  Not a South Park fan, therefore didn't even open since I despise people who have to incorporate cartoons into their posts.  Use your words to convey rather copying and pasting cartoons.  However, I do like puppies and would love to see those!

 

Feel free to leave the USA at anytime.  Let's get back to cruising and stop with your underlying Political views.

 

JMO 🙂

[PortFees45]

1 minute ago, OceanBlueWaters said:

 Use your words to convey rather copying and pasting cartoons.  🙂

I did use words in my post, 86 of them actually. Try reading them. 

[spanishguy1970]

On 5/24/2020 at 1:41 PM, pcakes122 said:

Okay, so I know this is not an NCL-specific topic, but we had a discussion called "masks" so I'm hoping we can discuss this here.

 

We all realize (I hope) that cruising cannot resume until we can stop or manage the spread the Covid-19 virus.  As the country is starting to reopen and testing is more readily available (either Covid-19 virus testing or Covid-19 antibody testing), I'm curious as to how many "non-symptomatic" people have proactively gotten tested for the virus. We now know that 30% of people who have/had Covid have NO (as in ZERO) symptoms.  Even without having symptoms, you are still contagious and can infect others.

 

As I watch the crowds of people on TV celebrating Memorial Day, I can't help but wonder how many of those people knew they were going into those crowds but still never bothered to consider that they might have the virus (but have no symptoms.)  Many of the people I saw on TV were not even wearing masks.

 

It really made me think about cruising and people's behavior in general.  Even if the cruise line doesn't insist that you get tested before embarkation, would you do so before cruising? Are you testing NOW before going out since restrictions are lifting?  Why or why not?

We don't plan on cruising until we get a detail explanation on how cruise lines are planning social distance within the ship or before a vaccine. We currently  have a cruise on October 19 of this year, but i am sure that will be canceled as well and if it is not, we wont go. We love to cruise but we are not addicted to it, there are other ways to vacation. As i said on other threads the idea of wearing a mask on the ship does not appeal to us. I see things are starting to open up, beaches are crowded in some areas and all we can think of are family and friends who are nurses and doctors that have families of their own that will be handling new cases of infections. We hope to go on a cruise again but not at the expense of our own health and others.

Edited May 25, 2020 by spanishguy1970

[PortFees45]

9 minutes ago, OceanBlueWaters said:

Let's get back to cruising and stop with your underlying Political views.

There is nothing "political" about saying South Korea did a better job keeping its citizens safe from COVID-19, and it's not a "view" either. It's a fact supported by hard data. If our leaders were as competent as South Korea's, we might be cruising right now. 

 

It's so intellectually infantile to just bleat "America is the best!" Really? To declare something the "best" versus anything else in any kind of non-subjective way (if you know what that even means) you have to take measurements. What does best mean? Best healthcare system/outcomes? Nope we're not the best in that. Cleanest environment? Nope, not the best in that. Best educational system with highest-testing students? For sure not the best in that. What about life expectancy? Nope, not the best in that. Again, these are all things you can measure.

 

Average citizens in North Korea think they live in paradise. You have more in common with those poor souls than you realize. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by PortFees45

[OceanBlueWaters]

12 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

 

 

That last sentence could have been worded better.  LOL

LOL!  But it is the harsh reality what parents are going through...

JMO 

[pcakes122]

5 hours ago, boatseller said:

Similar or even scarier warnings will be all over the check-in process and in the terminal specifically to dissuade high risk persons from entering/boarding.  They will do this to put the burden on the traveler for voluntarily choosing to enter/sail and acknowledging the risks.  No business will ever require any test result because it's too much liability.

Okay, so you completely missed the point of my post and my question. I guess you were just anxious to copy and paste a bunch of stuff. That's become the new thing around here.

 

I never said that I thought any entity would require a test. My question was: knowing that you could be asymptomatic and therefore spread the virus to unsuspecting people, would you proactively and voluntarily take a test?  In other words, do you have the social conscience that drives you to think of other people and not just yourself?

 

The quoted section above references people "acknowledging the risks" before entering. While CONTRACTING the virus might be a personal risk, another risk is SPREADING the virus.

 

The reason I think this is an important distinction is that I think people here should be interested to see just how many others have no regard for them and would have no problem endangering them without thinking twice.

 

I've shared that I was on the Bliss in March while I had an active Covid-19 virus.  While I was battling the disease I was extremely focused on myself and getting well. Now that I am recovered I can't stop thinking about how many people I infected on the ship (unknowingly and unintentionally) and I wonder how they are doing now. I pray that I didn't kill anyone, but I don't know that for sure and will never know.

 

My original question is that I wonder how many other people would also be haunted by the same thing - enough to take the effort to proactively take a test.

 

And yes, I know a test is only a single moment in time and that repeated testing is required. I've already had four tests myself because I am not going to chance hurting someone else if I can help it.

Edited May 25, 2020 by pcakes122

[OceanBlueWaters]

9 minutes ago, PortFees45 said:

There is nothing "political" about saying South Korea did a better job keeping its citizens safe from COVID-19, and it's not a "view" either. It's a fact supported by hard data. If our leaders were as competent as South Korea's, we might be cruising right now. 

 

It's so intellectually infantile to just bleat "America is the best!" Really? To declare something the "best" versus anything else in any kind of non-subjective way (if you know what that even means) you have to take measurements. What does best mean? Best healthcare system/outcomes? Nope we're not the best in that. Cleanest environment? Nope, not the best in that. Best educational system with highest-testing students? For sure not the best in that. What about life expectancy? Nope, not the best in that. Again, these are all things you can measure.

 

Average citizens in North Korea think they live in paradise. You have more in common with those poor souls than you realize. 

Political? Mods?  Not relevant.

Obliviously you need to relocate if you don't believe in USA. We WILL recover with or without you,   Again, you insult the intelligence of Americans.   Down boy.

 

Are you running for President to fix everything?

 

JMO 

[ray98]

1 hour ago, jezabel80 said:

Yes,  566 cases and 22 deaths,   not 100 cases and no deaths as someone else  stated. 

 

They were when those many of those people boarded their cruise.  The 9th would have been mid cruise for most of the cruises that were finishing that weekend.

[seaman11]

25 minutes ago, OceanBlueWaters said:

Political? Mods?  Not relevant.

Obliviously you need to relocate if you don't believe in USA. We WILL recover with or without you,   Again, you insult the intelligence of Americans.   Down boy.

 

Are you running for President to fix everything?

 

JMO 

Correct me if i am wrong but havent you argued with me about cruises opening back up this summer? 

Edited May 25, 2020 by seaman11

[PortFees45]

1 hour ago, OceanBlueWaters said:

Political? Mods?  Not relevant.

Obliviously you need to relocate if you don't believe in USA. We WILL recover with or without you,   Again, you insult the intelligence of Americans.   Down boy.

 

Are you running for President to fix everything?

 

JMO 

There you go again, howling for the "mods" every time you read something that intrudes into your fact-free safe space. And again, it IS relevant. The title of this thread is "COVID-19 testing" - and the lethal incompetence of our criminally negligent leaders on that VERY SUBJECT is the reason we're all sitting at home and not on cruises right now. 

 

The very fact I DO believe in the United States is why it's so plainly obvious our leaders failed us so terribly in this crisis. Your blind fealty to authority doesn't make you more patriotic than me. 

 

Notice how you didn't engage the substance of my post, at all. You just reflexively dismiss any criticism of this country's failings as lack of patriotism, while you continue to insist anyone who doesn't agree with you that 'MURICA IS THE BEST somehow isn't as good a citizen, when you can't quantify what being the "best" means. At all. Go ahead, try. Tell me what makes America the "best" country? Would you have NOT preferred we had a per capita (if you know what that means) outcome for our citizens as good or better than a non-super power country with vastly more limited resources like South Korea?? Wow, how "patriotic" of you 

 

No, I'm not running for president. You're the one pushing the brilliant idea of using "enormous fields" for graduations and bemoaning the ceremonies didn't take place in person. Are you running for school board? 

Edited May 25, 2020 by PortFees45

[chipmaster]

3 hours ago, OceanBlueWaters said:

You are free to leave this wonderful Country at any time.  Why would you post this?

 

So sad. Please exit our Country and find residence elsewhere.  Keep us informed about your whereabouts if/when you left.

 

Good grief...

 

Actually any country is finished or becomes static and stops improving when they can't look at other countries/cultures and adopt or learn.

 

Arrogance is the first step to beings assured you'll be on the outside looking in at a country that got it better.

 

What made the US great was it's open attitude to new cultures and people, but that is more past tense than current these days.

 

Competition is good, if all there was NCL and no Carnival or RCCL or HAL then the product wouldn't be as good, competition is good.

Edited May 25, 2020 by chipmaster

[boatseller]

14 hours ago, pcakes122 said:

Okay, so you completely missed the point of my post and my question. I guess you were just anxious to copy and paste a bunch of stuff. That's become the new thing around here.

 

I never said that I thought any entity would require a test. My question was: knowing that you could be asymptomatic and therefore spread the virus to unsuspecting people, would you proactively and voluntarily take a test?  In other words, do you have the social conscience that drives you to think of other people and not just yourself?

 

The quoted section above references people "acknowledging the risks" before entering. While CONTRACTING the virus might be a personal risk, another risk is SPREADING the virus.

 

The reason I think this is an important distinction is that I think people here should be interested to see just how many others have no regard for them and would have no problem endangering them without thinking twice.

 

I've shared that I was on the Bliss in March while I had an active Covid-19 virus.  While I was battling the disease I was extremely focused on myself and getting well. Now that I am recovered I can't stop thinking about how many people I infected on the ship (unknowingly and unintentionally) and I wonder how they are doing now. I pray that I didn't kill anyone, but I don't know that for sure and will never know.

 

My original question is that I wonder how many other people would also be haunted by the same thing - enough to take the effort to proactively take a test.

 

And yes, I know a test is only a single moment in time and that repeated testing is required. I've already had four tests myself because I am not going to chance hurting someone else if I can help it.

No, I get you point, but you're thinking way to narrowly.

 

"Even if the cruise line doesn't insist that you get tested before embarkation, would you do so before cruising? Are you testing NOW before going out since restrictions are lifting?  Why or why not?"

 

For most people, the 'why' is it won't be required and they have no reason to get tested.  The procedure may be looser now, but for a long time, an evaluation didn't always result in a physical test.  The only way to satisfy your 'social conscience' would be to get tested, quarantine yourself for 2 weeks, get tested again, then you can go to the grocery store.  Repeat every two weeks.

 

As for acknowledging risks, it's is the most important reason you shouldn't be beating yourself up.  Because of even the previous health questionnaire, every cruiser is made aware that there are diseases on cruise ships.  It's just part of life and this isn't even the first pandemic people have lived through.  Noro starts with someone.

 

For the ~60K people killed by influenza this season, they too had to get it from someone but I don't see mass guilt counseling.  "It's just allergies" will still forever be the first thought until it's not.  Mass abrogation of the social contract?  No, just basic human rationalization.  Go search "give someone influenza", first 3 pages, not even a blog post trying to shame people for spreading a deadly disease.

 

"The reason I think this is an important distinction is that I think people here should be interested to see just how many others have no regard for them and would have no problem endangering them without thinking twice."

 

You're setting yourself up for failure with an unattainable standard. Again, this just isn't a thing and there's no reason to treat sc2 differently than any other similar illness.  Really, I don't understand why you and our other friend default to the lowest possible opinion of other people (well, I sorta do but that's a different topic).

 

Here's statement:  I proactively forgive anyone who may unknowingly and unintentionally expose me to sc2 in a public setting which I voluntarily entered.

 

No one cruising for the rest of the year will be worried like you.  We're accepting the risk and understand the guidance is there for a reason.  We'd expect social consideration, but if there's an oopsie, c'est la vie.  Life isn't worth cancelling over an increasingly small risk.  Happy Cruising!

[pcakes122]

18 minutes ago, boatseller said:

No, I get you point, but you're thinking way to narrowly.

 

"Even if the cruise line doesn't insist that you get tested before embarkation, would you do so before cruising? Are you testing NOW before going out since restrictions are lifting?  Why or why not?"

 

For most people, the 'why' is it won't be required and they have no reason to get tested.  The procedure may be looser now, but for a long time, an evaluation didn't always result in a physical test.  The only way to satisfy your 'social conscience' would be to get tested, quarantine yourself for 2 weeks, get tested again, then you can go to the grocery store.  Repeat every two weeks.

 

As for acknowledging risks, it's is the most important reason you shouldn't be beating yourself up.  Because of even the previous health questionnaire, every cruiser is made aware that there are diseases on cruise ships.  It's just part of life and this isn't even the first pandemic people have lived through.  Noro starts with someone.

 

For the ~60K people killed by influenza this season, they too had to get it from someone but I don't see mass guilt counseling.  "It's just allergies" will still forever be the first thought until it's not.  Mass abrogation of the social contract?  No, just basic human rationalization.  Go search "give someone influenza", first 3 pages, not even a blog post trying to shame people for spreading a deadly disease.

 

"The reason I think this is an important distinction is that I think people here should be interested to see just how many others have no regard for them and would have no problem endangering them without thinking twice."

 

You're setting yourself up for failure with an unattainable standard. Again, this just isn't a thing and there's no reason to treat sc2 differently than any other similar illness.  Really, I don't understand why you and our other friend default to the lowest possible opinion of other people (well, I sorta do but that's a different topic).

 

Here's statement:  I proactively forgive anyone who may unknowingly and unintentionally expose me to sc2 in a public setting which I voluntarily entered.

 

No one cruising for the rest of the year will be worried like you.  We're accepting the risk and understand the guidance is there for a reason.  We'd expect social consideration, but if there's an oopsie, c'est la vie.  Life isn't worth cancelling over an increasingly small risk.  Happy Cruising!

The key difference between Covid-19 and the seasonal flu is that there is no vaccine that allows vulnerable people to live a somewhat normal life while proactively lessening their chances of dying from the flu.  Right now, there is no such Covid-19 protection for vulnerable folks (even though Covid-19 is killing healthy people, btw.)  So, in your view, all "vulnerable" people should live as shut-ins because "healthy" people are going to be out there living their life to the fullest? 

 

Also, while you might not want to think about those people you might have made sick, you will have to (at least at this point.) With Covid-19 we are still at the point where the disease is being traced.  Meaning, if you test positive you will get a call from your local government agency asking you to name all the people with whom you've had contact in the last 14 days so that they can warn/monitor/trace them.  I do feel bad that there were folks on the cruise I may have exposed on the cruise that I couldn't name.

 

I don't think proactive testing will prevent Covid-19 entirely of course, but at this point I'm willing to do anything that will stop the spread.  Admittedly, my personal experience has influenced my perspective.  Maybe I am just afraid (i.e. petrified!) of getting it again because this was NOTHING like a seasonal flu.  You don't want to catch this - TRUST ME.  A lot of people healthier (and younger) than me didn't make it.  😞 

[boatseller]

12 minutes ago, pcakes122 said:

The key difference between Covid-19 and the seasonal flu is that there is no vaccine that allows vulnerable people to live a somewhat normal life while proactively lessening their chances of dying from the flu.  Right now, there is no such Covid-19 protection for vulnerable folks (even though Covid-19 is killing healthy people, btw.)  So, in your view, all "vulnerable" people should live as shut-ins because "healthy" people are going to be out there living their life to the fullest? 

 

Also, while you might not want to think about those people you might have made sick, you will have to (at least at this point.) With Covid-19 we are still at the point where the disease is being traced.  Meaning, if you test positive you will get a call from your local government agency asking you to name all the people with whom you've had contact in the last 14 days so that they can warn/monitor/trace them.  I do feel bad that there were folks on the cruise I may have exposed on the cruise that I couldn't name.

 

I don't think proactive testing will prevent Covid-19 entirely of course, but at this point I'm willing to do anything that will stop the spread.  Admittedly, my personal experience has influenced my perspective.  Maybe I am just afraid (i.e. petrified!) of getting it again because this was NOTHING like a seasonal flu.  You don't want to catch this - TRUST ME.  A lot of people healthier (and younger) than me didn't make it.  😞 

Except it is not that much of a key difference.  Flu vaccine effectiveness is maybe 16-17%.  Huh?  Yes.  With average coverage of ~33% and effectiveness of ~50%, that's just 16.5%.  Even with a vaccine and treatments, influenza manages to take tens of thousands of people every year, disproportionately elderly.  And no, young health people are not mass casualties.  There are still plenty of things much more likely to kill your average 35 y/o than sc2.  This is all very well documented.

 

And we haven't even mentioned the huge mental health toll the near paranoia is causing.  In some places (Australia, Tennessee, San Francisco) suicide is outpacing sc2.  Look, if your guilt makes you feel like a better person, you do you.  But it's unnecessary and probably counterproductive.  It's becoming clearer every day that living with a tiny and decreasing risk is actually better then no risk.

 

To be clear, nobody wants any of these diseases and everyone probably has a survivor story.  I had opportunity and symptoms of chikungunya.  You definitely don't want that either but here I am.

[pcakes122]

18 minutes ago, boatseller said:

To be clear, nobody wants any of these diseases and everyone probably has a survivor story.  

Sadly, not everyone who contracted Covid-19 has a survivor story.

 

I get that we have different perspectives.  To you, Covid-19 is something you hear about on the news that is happening to other people. The numbers of infected and/or dead are just statistics. You seemingly feel healthy and fairly immune and/or confident you'd survive if you contracted the virus.

 

Therefore, I think we should just agree to disagree until it happens to you or someone you love.

 

If that happens we can talk again (but I'm hoping for your sake that day won't come.)

[PortFees45]

2 hours ago, boatseller said:

For the ~60K people killed by influenza this season, they too had to get it from someone but I don't see mass guilt counseling.  "It's just allergies" will still forever be the first thought until it's not.  Mass abrogation of the social contract?  No, just basic human rationalization.  Go search "give someone influenza", first 3 pages, not even a blog post trying to shame people for spreading a deadly disease.

Instead of trying to compare COVID-19 with influenza, it would be a lot easier to simply say, "I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about."