CDC Double Standard

[Daniel A]

3 hours ago, oskidunker said:

Dont go. 

And when you get off one of those overcrowded planes and infect me, I can see first hand where the CDC protected AA and the rest of the air travel industry instead of me...  Nice...

Edited June 27, 2020 by Daniel A

[Daniel A]

4 minutes ago, vjmatty said:

 

That is a tough call....cruises are longer duration, but you aren't spooning with total strangers in front and behind like recent seating configurations on aircraft.  I think six feet front, back and sides in the current model exposes you to a lot more than one row front and back.  I'm thinking about 15 people in a 6 foot radius.

Read the first post please...

[vjmatty]

2 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Read the first post please...

 

I did read the first post.... maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "filling to capacity"?

[Daniel A]

6 minutes ago, vjmatty said:

 

I did read the first post.... maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "filling to capacity"?

They will be filling every seat.

[Suncitycruiser1925]

FYI Allegiant Airlines do not require masks to be worn on their flights.

[vjmatty]

Just now, Daniel A said:

They will be filling every seat.

 

Or trying to anyway....still that doesn't tell us what kind of capacity they are talking about. I have to hope they are talking about the new standards with 6 feet apart

[Daniel A]

Just now, vjmatty said:

 

Or trying to anyway....still that doesn't tell us what kind of capacity they are talking about. I have to hope they are talking about the new standards with 6 feet apart

It's nice to be optimistic, but they're talking about filling every seat on the aircraft.  Not with social distancing, wear a mask and hope you don't kill anybody when you get off the plane.

[voljeep]

5 minutes ago, Suncitycruiser1925 said:

FYI Allegiant Airlines do not require masks to be worn on their flights.

FYI that changes 7/2

 

• Effective July 2, 2020, all customers are required to wear a face covering at all times when traveling to help protect them and those around them.
  • Children ages 2 and under are not required to wear a face covering.
  • Those with medical conditions that prevent the use of a face covering must provide physician documentation to the gate agent one hour prior to departure.
  • Face coverings may be briefly removed to eat or drink, but otherwise must worn at all times including at the ticket counter and gate, during boarding and while onboard the aircraft.
• We provide a complimentary health and safety kit to every customer upon boarding. Each kit includes a single-use face mask and two sanitizing wipes.

[vjmatty]

4 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

It's nice to be optimistic, but they're talking about filling every seat on the aircraft.  Not with social distancing, wear a mask and hope you don't kill anybody when you get off the plane.

 

No worries, my plan for years has been once we retire, flying would be eliminated from our itineraries and all travel would be surface only.  Boats and trains....and we are almost there.   When there is no hurry, there is no need to fly.

Edited June 27, 2020 by vjmatty

[frugaltravel]

13 hours ago, caribill said:

 

To me it is a good analogy.

 

 

Obviously based on the reactions to my post you are in the minority.  Masks are a controversial topic.  But they certainly can't hurt by wearing them out of respect to others (with the exception of those with asthma or other medical conditions).  

[frugaltravel]

1 hour ago, vjmatty said:

 

That is a tough call....cruises are longer duration, but you aren't spooning with total strangers in front and behind like recent seating configurations on aircraft.  I think six feet front, back and sides in the current model exposes you to a lot more than one row front and back.  I'm thinking about 15 people in a 6 foot radius.

Have you been cruising since all this started?  I didn't think so!  What procedures will Princess use once cruising starts?  Every party to their own table at dinner?  If that will happen, they will have to start dinner about 2pm and finish about midnight lol.  Then if they have no buffet, it will probably be even worse.  Take out at least half the lounge chairs at the pool and on the promenade deck?  I wonder.  Elevator buttons touched constantly by guests, as are handrails on the steps.  Theater will limit to about 1/3 capacity so there is proper social distancing?

 

If most or all of the above measures are not taken, cruising could very well be worse than flying on an airplane.  At least a domestic airplane ride is several hours max, not multiple days.

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by frugaltravel

[Roger88]

38 minutes ago, vjmatty said:

 

No worries, my plan for years has been once we retire, flying would be eliminated from our itineraries and all travel would be surface only.  Boats and trains....and we are almost there.   When there is no hurry, there is no need to fly.

I wont agree with you. I love flying, I love all this romantic time wastment and business rooms. Watching airplanes flying and landing, boarding one. How can it be bad? 😁 Trains are also fines but planes are always number one option for me

[frugaltravel]

3 minutes ago, Roger88 said:

I wont agree with you. I love flying, I love all this romantic time wastment and business rooms. Watching airplanes flying and landing, boarding one. How can it be bad? 😁 Trains are also fines but planes are always number one option for me

So many people say they hate the journey and just want "to get there."  I go to great efforts to make the journey enjoyable.  That goes especially for flights.  I love flying.  This is one of the longest stretches of "no flying" for me in decades!

 

[vjmatty]

13 minutes ago, frugaltravel said:

Have you been cruising since all this started?  I didn't think so!  What procedures will Princess use once cruising starts?  Every party to their own table at dinner?  If that will happen, they will have to start dinner about 2pm and finish about midnight lol.  Then if they have no buffet, it will probably be even worse.  Take out at least half the lounge chairs at the pool and on the promenade deck?  I wonder.  Elevator buttons touched constantly by guests, as are handrails on the steps.  Theater will limit to about 1/3 capacity so there is proper social distancing?

 

If most or all of the above measures are not taken, cruising could very well be worse than flying on an airplane.  At least a domestic airplane ride is several hours max, not multiple days.

 

 

Yikes.... I started my post with "it's a tough call."  That should have signaled that I am speculating.  Which is a fancy word for guessing.

[vjmatty]

15 minutes ago, Roger88 said:

I wont agree with you. I love flying, I love all this romantic time wastment and business rooms. Watching airplanes flying and landing, boarding one. How can it be bad? 😁 Trains are also fines but planes are always number one option for me

 

I used to love flying too until they found endless ways to make it suck.  Even getting lounge membership and flying business class can't seem to make up for the tiresome experience of modern airline travel.  Who knows, maybe social distancing guidelines will make flying great again, but my first experience last year of taking the train from NY to my Ft Lauderdale cruise, then back again was so nice not having to fly.

 

I should clarify I had a sleeper room, but it was great not worrying about the weight of my bags, and size of fluids, and shoes, and belts... just board the train, pour a drink and off we go.  The journey, the scenery, the people you meet... its like a one-night cruise on land but on a much smaller and simpler scale.  Certainly not for everyone, especially if you are on a schedule, but worth a try.

[Potstech]

2 hours ago, caribill said:

 

I did not hear about it, but I did read about it.

 

diabetes

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01891-8

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/27/fact-check-doctors-study-whether-covid-19-triggers-diabetes/3267863001/

 

brain

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200622-the-long-term-effects-of-covid-19-infection

 

kidneys

https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/503958-covid-19-and-kidney-disease-a-deadly-intersection-that

 

 

None of your articles say they have scientific proof of your claims.  The first one is about a different virus. The second one is one person's claims and the last two just show that COVID 19 can aggravate existing conditions, None show that the virus can cause these problems in "healthy young people who show no symptoms."

 

No wonder it is not all over the news as it is unproven.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Potstech

[mellon1]

On 6/26/2020 at 2:25 PM, ReidRGetALife said:

The airlines all require masks to be worn. And EVERYBODY knows with a mask on you're 100% protected!! No virus can get through THAT thing! Right. It's like putting up a chain link fence to keep out mosquitoes.

Ummm...here people are not wearing masks.  Get inside and take them off.  No one is 100% protected.  Both have to wear masks to protect each other...is that going to happen???  I don't think so.  Not trying rain on your parade.  I totally wish what you said would be true.  Airlines....ummm,... on the way home we both got sick because of a guy soooooo sick and they didn't make him wear a mask....then the airlines serve drinks and food and people take off the masks (after they touched everything and did not clean their hands) and ....well don't need to say any more.  You can do all you can; however, it is what everyone else does.  Unfortunately you can't control that.

[npcl]

1 hour ago, Daniel A said:

And when you get off one of those overcrowded planes and infect me, I can see first hand where the CDC protected AA and the rest of the air travel industry instead of me...  Nice...

Go find the regulation that gives the CDC authority over domestic aircraft?

[Daniel A]

11 minutes ago, npcl said:

Go find the regulation that gives the CDC authority over domestic aircraft?

After you find the regulation that gives CDC the authority to shut down the entire cruise industry...

 

What is domestic about this??

 

http://aa.fltmaps.com/en

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Daniel A

[caribill]

41 minutes ago, Potstech said:

None of your articles say they have scientific proof of your claims.

 

To quote from the articles:

 

Just as concerning, evidence indicates that people without kidney disease who become infected with COVID-19 may experience acute kidney injury (AKI), the sudden episode of kidney failure or kidney damage. Up to 40 percent of patients with COVID-19 admitted to the Intensive Care Unit experience AKI and require dialysis to stay alive.  (not aggravating existing conditions as you indicated)

 

In Gnadt’s case, Hollstein suspected that the virus had destroyed his β-cells, because his blood didn’t contain the types of immune cells that typically damage the pancreatic islets where the β-cells live.  (SARS-CoV-2  is the proper name for Covid-19, it is not a "different virus" as you indicated.)

 

Now, more than 300 studies from around the world have found a prevalence of neurological abnormalities in Covid-19 patients  (not just one person's claims as you indicated)

 

 

 

[npcl]

27 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

After you find the regulation that gives CDC the authority to shut down the entire cruise industry...

That is easy the regulations are listed in the April 15 do not sail order.  Here are some of the specific sections.  There is far more history dealing with marine law, the granting of pratique, and quarantine. 

 

This Order shall be enforceable through the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 3559, 3571; 42 U.S.C. 243, 268, 271; and 42 CFR 70.18, 71.2.

Therefore, in accordance with sections 361 and 365 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 264, 268) and 42 CFR 70.2, 71.31(b), 71.32(b), for all cruise ships for the period described below, it is ordered:

 

42 USC 243  General grant of authority for cooperation

 

Enforcement of quarantine regulations; prevention of communicable diseases

The Secretary is authorized to accept from State and local authorities any assistance in the enforcement of quarantine regulations made pursuant to this chapter which such authorities may be able and willing to provide. The Secretary shall also assist States and their political subdivisions in the prevention and suppression of communicable diseases and with respect to other public health matters, shall cooperate with and aid State and local authorities in the enforcement of their quarantine and other health regulations, and shall advise the several States on matters relating to the preservation and improvement of the public health.

 

42 USC 271

 

(a)Penalties for persons violating quarantine laws

Any person who violates any regulation prescribed under sections 264 to 266 of this title, or any provision of section 269 of this title or any regulation prescribed thereunder, or who enters or departs from the limits of any quarantine station, ground, or anchorage in disregard of quarantine rules and regulations or without permission of the quarantine officer in charge, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $1,000 or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both.

(b)Penalties for vessels violating quarantine laws

Any vessel which violates section 269 of this title, or any regulations thereunder or under section 267 of this title, or which enters within or departs from the limits of any quarantine station, ground, or anchorage in disregard of the quarantine rules and regulations or without permission of the officer in charge, shall forfeit to the United States not more than $5,000, the amount to be determined by the court, which shall be a lien on such vessel, to be recovered by proceedings in the proper district court of the United States. In all such proceedings the United States attorney shall appear on behalf of the United States; and all such proceedings shall be conducted in accordance with the rules and laws governing cases of seizure of vessels for violation of the revenue laws of the United States.

 

42 USC 264 

Section 264. Regulations to control communicable diseases

 

42 USC 268

(a)Any consular or medical officer of the United States, designated for such purpose by the Secretary, shall make reports to the Surgeon General, on such forms and at such intervals as the Surgeon General may prescribe, of the health conditions at the port or place at which such officer is stationed.

(b) It shall be the duty of the customs officers and of Coast Guard officers to aid in the enforcement of quarantine rules and regulations; but no additional compensation, except actual and necessary traveling expenses, shall be allowed any such officer by reason of such services.

 

 

 42 CFR 70.2, 71.31(b) and 71.32(b),

 

 emergency action taken under the existing authority of 42 CFR 70.2, 71.31(b) and 71.32

 

 

42 CFR 70.2 Measures in the event of inadequate local control.

 

42 CFR 71.31 General provisions.

(a) Upon arrival at a U.S. port, a carrier will not undergo inspection unless the Director determines that a failure to inspect will present a threat of introduction of communicable diseases into the United States, as may exist when the carrier has on board individual(s) reportable in accordance with § 71.21 or meets the circumstances described in § 71.42. Carriers not subject to inspection under this section will be subject to sanitary inspection under § 71.41 of this part.

(b) The Director may require detention of a carrier until the completion of the measures outlined in this part that are necessary to prevent the introduction or spread of a communicable disease. The Director may issue a controlled free pratique to the carrier stipulating what measures are to be met, but such issuance does not prevent the periodic boarding of a carrier and the inspection of persons and records to verify that the conditions have been met for granting the pratique.

 

42 CFR 71.32 Persons, carriers, and things.

(a) Whenever the Director has reason to believe that any arriving person is infected with or has been exposed to any of the communicable diseases listed in an Executive Order, as provided under section 361(b) of the Public Health Service Act, he/she may isolate, quarantine, or place the person under surveillance and may order disinfection or disinfestation, fumigation, as he/she considers necessary to prevent the introduction, transmission or spread of the listed communicable diseases. Executive Order 13295, of April 4, 2003, as provided under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 264), and as amended by Executive Order 13375 of April 1, 2005, contains the current revised list of quarantinable communicable diseases, and may be obtained at http://www.cdc.gov and http://www.archives.gov/federal- register. If this Order is amended, HHS will enforce that amended order immediately and update this reference.

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by npcl

[npcl]

When it comes to aircraft current regulations allow for quarantine of individuals, and contact tracing of passengers on a flight that has been determined to have carried an infected individual, but not much else when it comes to domestic flights.

 

They could probably stop all flights from specific foreign locations, which was done concerning some areas.  Though it might be easier to enforce  using the authority of the FAA.

 

I will also point out that it is not just the CDC that has made the distinction.  There are other countries that allow aircraft, but ban cruise ships.  Australia, Canada, the EU (when it comes to large ocean going ships, though they may relax the ban for some cruises strictly with in the EU soon), Japan, etc.

 

Lots of countries allowing domestic air travel, very few allowing cruise ships, even without passengers to dock.

 

Seem like this is more in step with other countries policies than being an exception. Maybe there is something to the virus attack rate on cruise ships compared to aircraft.

Edited June 27, 2020 by npcl

[Charles4515]

After you find the regulation that gives CDC the authority to shut down the entire cruise industry...    

 

 

  

 Think logically if the CDC didn’t have the authority to shut it down the cruise lines would have ignored or challenged the no sail order. They have not challenged it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

 

[Daniel A]

2 minutes ago, npcl said:

When it comes to aircraft current regulations allow for quarantine of individuals, and contact tracing of passengers on a flight that has been determined to have carried an infected individual, but not much else when it comes to domestic flights.

 

They could probably stop all flights from specific foreign locations, which was done concerning some areas.  Though it might be easier to enforce  using the authority of the FAA.

Why can they stop aircraft from foreign locations?  if AA is allowing hundreds of people to gather without social distancing from a location with a quarantined population such as Florida, Texas, etc... and travel to another location with an epidemic under control, that's ok but getting on a cruise ship is forbidden?  It doesn't make sense, and the more you make excuses for the CDC's inactions makes me distrust the agency as a whole.  After all, what plans did they have in place to handle a crises like this in the first place?  Sounds like overall incompetence to me.

[Daniel A]

5 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

  

 Think logically if the CDC didn’t have the authority to shut it down the cruise lines would have ignored or challenged the no sail order. They have not challenged it.

So why didn't they shut down the airline industry if they had such broad powers?  Look at what the airline industry did to New York in the beginning of the crises.  Logically, if the virus would spread from one type of transport, it would also spread from another type.  But the CDC did nothing.  And now, AA plans to fill their aircraft to full capacity.