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Daniel A

CDC Double Standard

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20 hours ago, npcl said:

Go find the regulation that gives the CDC authority over domestic aircraft?

It took me a while, but this should cover it:

(Sections 267 to 269  covers the quarantining of ships.)

 

42 U.S.C.
United States Code, 2011 Edition
Title 42 - THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE
CHAPTER 6A - PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE
SUBCHAPTER II - GENERAL POWERS AND DUTIES
Part G - Quarantine and Inspection
Sec. 270 - Quarantine regulations governing civil air navigation and civil aircraft
From the U.S. Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov
 

§270. Quarantine regulations governing civil air navigation and civil aircraft

The Surgeon General is authorized to provide by regulations for the application to air navigation and aircraft of any of the provisions of sections 267 to 269 of this title and regulations prescribed thereunder (including penalties and forfeitures for violations of such sections and regulations), to such extent and upon such conditions as he deems necessary for the safeguarding of the public health.

(July 1, 1944, ch. 373, title III, §367, 58 Stat. 706.)

Abolition of Office of Surgeon General

Office of Surgeon General abolished by section 3 of Reorg. Plan No. 3 of 1966, eff. June 25, 1966, 31 F.R. 8855, 80 Stat. 1610, and functions thereof transferred to Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare by section 1 of Reorg. Plan No. 3 of 1966, set out as a note under section 202 of this title. Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare redesignated Secretary of Health and Human Services by section 509(b) of Pub. L. 96–88 which is classified to section 3508(b) of Title 20, Education.

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50 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

application to air navigation and aircraft of any of the provisions of sections 267 to 269 of this title and regulations prescribed thereunder (including penalties and forfeitures for violations of such sections and regulations), to such extent and upon such conditions as he deems necessary for the safeguarding of the public health

But, if you read section 269, it applies only to vessels (and by extension to aircraft per section 270) that "at any foreign port or place clearing or departing for any port or place in a State or possession".  Bolding is mine, and shows that this only applies to vessels arriving in the US from foreign ports.  It has nothing to do with domestic sailings (and by extension to domestic aircraft).

 

Now, while section 264 states that the Surgeon General is authorized to  prevent the "introduction, transmission, or spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the States or possessions, or from one State or possession into any other State or possession", showing that they have authority over interstate traffic, it states that the authority is to "inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, destruction of animals or articles found to be so infected or contaminated", but stops short of authorizing stopping of the interstate traffic, without direct data that the particular vehicle (air, land, or marine) is or has been infected.

 

Now, while section 269 does not specify that the Surgeon General has the power to stop a ship from entering the US, it does allow that they can make rules and regulations that ships (and aircraft) must abide by, but the final decision to clear a foreign vessel into a US port resides with the USCG, not the CDC.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/27/2020 at 9:16 AM, PrincessLuver said:

 

You are so correct.....the attitude here is that it is everyone for themselves and any ridiculous belief about COVID-19 goes.  COVID-19 Deniers are even at the highest level of the government and promote some real insane theories.  All you have to do is look at the states where the cases are really surging to see if those theories hold up.  They do not!  It is basically the local governments and corporations, like the airlines, that are taking charge and requiring safe guidelines be followed.    

 

Until COVID-19 is controllable, treatable or preventable cruise lines will be going no where in the US.  There is a big difference from being on a plane for 2 hours with everyone now required to wear a mask or they are banned from flying then on a 7 day cruise where everyone will probably do their own thing because cruise lines are notoriously lax in onboard enforcement of rules.

 

Plus, where are the cruise ships going to go with most EU countries and others too not wanting American tourists because of their flippant attitudes toward COVID-19 and lack of success at controlling it.   

You're right about the flippant attitude, this is especially among Millennials, cases here in Florida are exploding and officials are blaming most of it on young adults hanging out in bars and clubs and with no social distancing. Didn't see a lot of social distancing with the protests in the past couple of weeks either so that could be another reason for the spike.

Whatever the reason  it looks like this virus is not going away and the only way we are going to get rid of it is a vaccine. Hopefully by fall we might have a vaccine and then we can all start cruising again.

 

Edited by MISTER 67

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On 6/26/2020 at 9:48 PM, BirdTravels said:

You have a mask and your asymptomatic COVID seatmate has a mask - 6% probability of transmission

 

You have a mask and your asymptomatic COVID seatmate without a mask worn constantly (lots of "eating" or "drinking" time without a mask) or not fitted well - 33% probability of transmission 

 

You have a have a lot of time without a mask ("eating" or "drinking" time)/lose mask and your asymptomatic COVID seatmate without a mask worn constantly (lots of "eating" or "drinking" time without a mask)/lose mask - 67% probability of transmission 

 

CDC

 

Do you have a reference from a valid data source for your statements?

 

DON

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Posted (edited)

The following is a pretty good summary dealing with the laws related to infectious disease in the US

 

Federal and State Quarantine and Isolation Authority

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33201.pdf

 

The public health authority of the states derives from the police powers granted by their constitutions and reserved to them by the Tenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The authority of the federal government to prescribe quarantine and other health measures is based on the Commerce Clause, which gives Congress exclusive authority to regulate interstate and foreign commerce. Thus, state and local governments have the primary authority to control the spread of dangerous diseases within their jurisdictions, and the federal government has authority to quarantine and impose other health measures to prevent the spread of diseases from foreign countries and between states. In addition, the federal government may assist state efforts to prevent the spread of communicable diseases if requested by a state or if state efforts are inadequate to halt the spread of disease.

 

 

 

When it comes to aircraft inside the US, the limits of the federal are similar to the action they can take to stop interstate car traffic.  With aircraft illness on board must be reported, local public health departments are supposed to report cases where the individual had recently been on board an aircraft for contact tracing and notification of other health departments, they can quarantine individuals if the circumstances require it, they can put people on a no fly list to prevent them from breaking quarantine.  But they cannot stop domestic air travel from occurring.

 

Now an individual state (such as Hawaii) can set up quarantine and other measures.  They might be able to request that the federal government stop flights (more via the FAA than CDC) but I do not believe that such action has ever been tested in court.  In the early days of the outbreak the President threatened to isolate NY from surrounding states, to which the Governor of NY immediately threatened a law suite and that threatened action was dropped.

 

Even if they had the power, I doubt that they would stop air travel because as mentioned earlier 1. air travel does include essential travelers, which cruise ships do not, and 2. the attack rate for infection has been shown to be much higher than on aircraft.  If the situation was bad enough to stop air travel you would expect that land travel would also be stopped.

Edited by npcl

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5 minutes ago, npcl said:

The following is a pretty good summary dealing with the laws related to infectious disease in the US

 

Federal and State Quarantine and Isolation Authority

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33201.pdf

 

The public health authority of the states derives from the police powers granted by their constitutions and reserved to them by the Tenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The authority of the federal government to prescribe quarantine and other health measures is based on the Commerce Clause, which gives Congress exclusive authority to regulate interstate and foreign commerce. Thus, state and local governments have the primary authority to control the spread of dangerous diseases within their jurisdictions, and the federal government has authority to quarantine and impose other health measures to prevent the spread of diseases from foreign countries and between states. In addition, the federal government may assist state efforts to prevent the spread of communicable diseases if requested by a state or if state efforts are inadequate to halt the spread of disease.

 

 

 

When it comes to aircraft inside the US, the limits of the federal are similar to the action they can take to stop interstate car traffic.  With aircraft illness on board must be reported, local public health departments are supposed to report cases where the individual had recently been on board an aircraft for contact tracing and notification of other health departments, they can quarantine individuals if the circumstances require it, they can put people on a no fly list to prevent them from breaking quarantine.  But they cannot stop domestic air travel from occuring.

 

 

Agreed that it wasn't a public health emergency but on September 11, 2001 the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) National Operations Manager ordered a national "ground Stop."  (Interestingly, it was his first day on the job!)  This stopped all air travel in US airspace.  But, I concede your point that the CDC can't stop the commercial domestic air travel.

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On 6/26/2020 at 11:57 AM, Daniel A said:

American Airlines has announced they will be filling their planes to capacity starting July 1.  Where is the CDC on this?  Or is CDC only looking at cruise ships and leaving the airline industry alone?  How do PAX practice social distancing on a packed airplane?


Air Canada & Westjet made announcemen, as well. Didn’t last long to go back & stuff those rows of 3. 

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13 hours ago, Potstech said:

Correct but does it damage them months later in healthy young people as was claimed?  No proof

 

Plenty of documentary evidence from the medics. Of course, I believe Dr, Fauci and not the politicians!

 

"Scientists are only starting to grasp the vast array of health problems caused by the novel coronavirus, some of which may have lingering effects on patients and health systems for years to come, according to doctors and infectious disease experts.

 

Besides the respiratory issues that leave patients gasping for breath, the virus that causes COVID-19 attacks many organ systems, in some cases causing catastrophic damage..."

 

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/scientists-just-beginning-understand-many-100748077.html

 

 

 

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On 6/27/2020 at 2:35 PM, vjmatty said:


I used to love flying too until they found endless ways to make it suck.  Even getting lounge membership and flying business class can't seem to make up for the tiresome experience of modern airline travel. 

Sounds like you are hard to please if you can't enjoy the journey with lounges and business class. 99% of the posters here would disagree with you and would love that experience. I know those things, among others, make my travel experience much more tolerable.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lazz said:

I would like everyone to take their personal responsibility one step further and NOT go out into the community if you have a condition that makes you more likely to catch it.  Also teach your children about social distancing.  More and more reports of young people totally ignoring the recommendations.

We are getting way off topic but most reliable sources say there is a good 3 pronged approach - distancing, hand washing and face masks. Young people ignore recommendations, get the virus then bring it home to the more vulnerable. So "not go out into the community" is not a failsafe option actually. Courtesy and respect would be nice but that is barely existent in today's US culture. Sad. No wonder cruising won't start again for a long time.

Edited by frugaltravel

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13 hours ago, tert333 said:

One thing to reduce the volumes in certain areas would be to mandate one meal a day being room service

 

 

 

Only in cabins which have at least one chair for each occupant.

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6 hours ago, frugaltravel said:

Sounds like you are hard to please if you can't enjoy the journey with lounges and business class. 99% of the posters here would disagree with you and would love that experience. I know those things, among others, make my travel experience much more tolerable.

 

 

Only hard to please with regard to the current state of flying. And at my age I’ve learned I don’t need others to agree with me on every topic. 

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On 6/27/2020 at 3:41 AM, Cafedumonde said:

Exactly.  Totally pointless.  Possibly even counter productive.  It just makes people feel like they are doing something.  The fact is no one really knows exactly how the virus is transmitted.  If we did, cruise lines could easily implement policies to prevent infection.  It’s in the cold virus family and is just everywhere at this point.

 

Cruise lines have policies to prevent norovirus as well, and yet they have outbreaks. 

 

One  problem is that people often don't follow the guidelines, or believe that they don't apply to them. No single drop of water believes that it's responsible for the flood. I traveled in the past month, including airports. What I saw as far as travellers following protective measures was appalling. Most people that I saw were ignorant of basic hygiene measures. One woman was wearing her mask like a bauble on her wrist. She used hand sanitizer, and then promptly put her hand on the escalator railing. Maybe 10% of the people I saw were properly wearing a mask. This is why we can't have nice things. As a health care professional who has cared for COVID-19 patients first-hand, I see this getting much worse before getting better, and we have mostly ourselves to blame for it.

 

There may be some useful information in the article below.

 

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/health/coronavirus-questions-answers/#is-it-safe-to-go-back-to-the-gym

 

Sean

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Posted (edited)

Never mind.

Edited by richsea

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8 minutes ago, ChaserX said:

She used hand sanitizer, and then promptly put her hand on the escalator railing.

did she use the sanitizer again after getting off the escalator ? I know the Princess / Port Everglades "requires" you to have a free hand to use the escalator railings, or you must use the elevators ... and it was enforced ...

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2 hours ago, voljeep said:

did she use the sanitizer again after getting off the escalator ? I know the Princess / Port Everglades "requires" you to have a free hand to use the escalator railings, or you must use the elevators ... and it was enforced ...

And of course there is one poster who has endlessly posted that there is no social distancing on an elevator.

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7 hours ago, voljeep said:

did she use the sanitizer again after getting off the escalator ? I know the Princess / Port Everglades "requires" you to have a free hand to use the escalator railings, or you must use the elevators ... and it was enforced ...

 

No. I don't recall seeing a lot of hand sanitizer stations near the escalators or elevators, but I had my own, so I really wasn't looking very hard for them.

 

Sean

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On 6/28/2020 at 12:16 PM, tert333 said:

One thing to reduce the volumes in certain areas would be to mandate one meal a day being room service

 

From what I have seen, many cruises already do this.

 

In addition to their other three or four meals.

 

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On 6/26/2020 at 1:25 PM, ReidRGetALife said:

The airlines all require masks to be worn. And EVERYBODY knows with a mask on you're 100% protected!! No virus can get through THAT thing! Right. It's like putting up a chain link fence to keep out mosquitoes.

Do I detect sarcasm?

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On 6/28/2020 at 5:08 PM, dog said:


Air Canada & Westjet made announcemen, as well. Didn’t last long to go back & stuff those rows of 3. 

But I keep hearing that dai/ly airline passenger count is down at least 80%.

 

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4 hours ago, HappyCruiserettu said:

But I keep hearing that dai/ly airline passenger count is down at least 80%.

 

Aren't there also less flights? That would make the flights that remain more crowded than that 80% reduction would seem to lead to.

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6 hours ago, HappyCruiserettu said:

Do I detect sarcasm?

No, ignorance. 

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9 hours ago, HappyCruiserettu said:

But I keep hearing that dai/ly airline passenger count is down at least 80%.

 

 

United announced today that they are adding 25,000 flights into their schedule for the month of August.  Other airlines are following suit as they experience an uptick in air travel as passengers are slowly returning.  Evidently their safety campaigns are working to entice people to travel by air again.

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1 hour ago, PrincessLuver said:

 

United announced today that they are adding 25,000 flights into their schedule for the month of August.  Other airlines are following suit as they experience an uptick in air travel as passengers are slowly returning.  Evidently their safety campaigns are working to entice people to travel by air again.

 

Just in time to shut down, LOL.  Have you heard large parts of the US are making NYC look like a warmup event.  

 

Labor day looks to be a doozier of a holiday where we'll see the collateral damage of the huge number of people celebrating the 4th.

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