Extra tipping

[clo]

1 hour ago, 2wheelin said:

But in reality, the amount of a tip is more a reflection of the cost of service coupled with quality or service. Waiters in inexpensive restaurants get way less in tips even though they often work harder than those in expensive restaurants. I would rather tip based on service. Quality and time spent.

it’s a little more equitable I suppose on a cruise where the daily norm for tips is the same regardless of cost of cabin—except for suites I think. Never stayed in one.

But frequently tips are shared with 'back of house,' the ones who make the food taste good and all the others.

[ldubs]

4 hours ago, GrJ Berkshire said:

Yes we might have started it in the 17th century: but we left it behind in the 20th century. It's so last century, we have almost left it behind us now. However in the States and on cruising tipping has almost gone out of control with 18 to 20% now becoming common. :.....MADNESS !!!!!!!!...

 

Oh the madness!  haha

 

You know, tipping is so part of the culture here it is hardly noticed, at least from the standpoint of being a hassle.  To be honest, I personally would be OK with getting rid of tipping here in the US.   But many restaurant/saloon workers would be against that kind of change.  

 

Anyway, if you feel uncomfortable tipping when you visit the US, how do you think I feel when I visit your country.    Do you have any idea how hard it is at my age to break the habit of looking left before crossing the street.  😄😄😄

[sanger727]

8 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

I agree that the percentage should not increase - the same percentage should track the cost of living.  However - to the extent tipping is variable at the option of the tipper, it is not necessarily “madness”.  The amount of the tip  should reflect the quality of the service rendered - superb service rates a generous tip, while lackadaisical or careless service should get less, and dreadful service should get nothing.  

 

There is is a lot to say for incentive pay - most employers will pay competent and effective employees more - either with higher base pay or with bonuses on top of base pay.  What is true “madness” is to pay the same amount to careless, incompetent or lazy employees the same amount as given to diligent, competent and hardworking employees.

I waited tables  years ago. And because of that experience the lowest I will tip a server is 10%. As a server we were required to ‘tip out’ around 3% of our nightly sales each to the bartenders and bussers. And many servers also tipped the hostesses a bit. When a tip wasn’t left at all or less than 5%, you ended up losing money on a table. I’ve never had bad enough service to believe that the server should end up with a negative tip. While I had fun waitressing, there were always table that wouldn’t tip regardless of the level of service. And I have no interest in working a job again where my pay is dependent upon the generosity of customers.

 

now, in terms of incentive pay. The job I have now is union which means that everyone gets paid the same regardless of performance. While on the plus side is it eliminstes and potential pay inequality issues. On the negative side is it certainly isn’t a way to run an efficient business or motivate employees to do a good job. Employees tend to start out highly motivated and over the next ten years slowly realize that there’s no reward for being highly motivated and end up disgruntled that the slackers get paid the same as them.  My job is especially bad for this because doing your job well also has no bearing on your ability to get promoted. That’s through a testing process that doesn’t take into account job performance.

Edited July 12, 2020 by sanger727

[navybankerteacher]

9 hours ago, 2wheelin said:

But in reality, the amount of a tip is more a reflection of the cost of service coupled with quality or service. Waiters in inexpensive restaurants get way less in tips even though they often work harder than those in expensive restaurants. I would rather tip based on service. Quality and time spent.

it’s a little more equitable I suppose on a cruise where the daily norm for tips is the same regardless of cost of cabin—except for suites I think. Never stayed in one.

Well, part of the overall quality received has to be the quality of the food itself.  Personally, I feel that 15% is a reasonable tip — but at an expensive restaurant I believe I should be able to expect very good service,so I am more inclined to reduce it for unsatisfactory service — the same way I am delighted to go to 25% for good service at the local “sugar bowl”.

 

On cruise ships the mechanics are totally different - the auto-tip goes to a wide spectrum of service providers, many of whom I never see, for providing the generally expected level of service — which you can reduce if you are willing to explain why — and you can increase, on a personal level, for those who individually provided you with superior service.

[clo]

3 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

the auto-tip goes to a wide spectrum of service providers, many of whom I never see, for providing the generally expected level of service

But that's true in many if not most restaurants. There are all those back of house people who get part of that tip.  BTW my average tip for the last few years has been 20%. That seems pretty typical out here. Perhaps because we're visiting SF and SEA where the cost of living is so high.

[c-boy]

6 hours ago, sanger727 said:

I waited tables  years ago. And because of that experience the lowest I will tip a server is 10%. As a server we were required to ‘tip out’ around 3% of our nightly sales each to the bartenders and bussers. And many servers also tipped the hostesses a bit. When a tip wasn’t left at all or less than 5%, you ended up losing money on a table. I’ve never had bad enough service to believe that the server should end up with a negative tip. While I had fun waitressing, there were always table that wouldn’t tip regardless of the level of service. And I have no interest in working a job again where my pay is dependent upon the generosity of customers.

 

now, in terms of incentive pay. The job I have now is union which means that everyone gets paid the same regardless of performance. While on the plus side is it eliminstes and potential pay inequality issues. On the negative side is it certainly isn’t a way to run an efficient business or motivate employees to do a good job. Employees tend to start out highly motivated and over the next ten years slowly realize that there’s no reward for being highly motivated and end up disgruntled that the slackers get paid the same as them.  My job is especially bad for this because doing your job well also has no bearing on your ability to get promoted. That’s through a testing process that doesn’t take into account job performance.

huh , I would think motivation or promotions would be based on annual evaluations. 

[sanger727]

7 minutes ago, c-boy said:

huh , I would think motivation or promotions would be based on annual evaluations. 

for annual evaluations to have a motivating effect there has to be a consequence. When there’s no positive or negative reinforcement they are just something you get every year. Unions jobs, especially under civil service commissions are unique. Promotions are often unrelated to job performance, like in mine.

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, clo said:

But that's true in many if not most restaurants. There are all those back of house people who get part of that tip.  BTW my average tip for the last few years has been 20%. That seems pretty typical out here. Perhaps because we're visiting SF and SEA where the cost of living is so high.

The fact that the tip is a percentage of the check means that the same percentage should track increases in the cost of living- as the price of the meal goes up, so will the tip.  

[clo]

4 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

The fact that the tip is a percentage of the check means that the same percentage should track increases in the cost of living- as the price of the meal goes up, so will the tip.  

I don't find that the cost of food relates to the cost of housing, something that's a huge problem out here anyway. Even in Reno.

[Aquahound]

[navybankerteacher]

29 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

Great idea combine concepts ... how much more should we tip on board ship to recognize the extra work staff has to perform because of COVID - while probably having fewer passengers contributing tips?

[ldubs]

If I catch covid I ain't tipping.  😠

 

 

[sparks1093]

On 7/11/2020 at 5:04 PM, ldubs said:

 

I think the convenience would be a big factor for all inclusive.  To be fair, we get freebies for drinks, internet, laundry, and then some OBC.  So we are able to live pretty high on the hog without a huge amount of out-of-pocket.  

I'm sure convenience is a big factor to some, I personally wouldn't pay that much more for it if it meant that I would be paying for a lot of stuff that I have no interest in and would therefore receive little value for. 

[sparks1093]

On 7/11/2020 at 8:12 PM, GrJ Berkshire said:

Yes we might have started it in the 17th century: but we left it behind in the 20th century. It's so last century, we have almost left it behind us now. However in the States and on cruising tipping has almost gone out of control with 18 to 20% now becoming common. :.....MADNESS !!!!!!!!...

But have you really left it behind? From what I've discerned in participating in these threads tipping is still common in many restaurants in the UK but more commonly at a 10% rate. 

[Hlitner]

We do not think there is any right or wrong when it comes to the subject of tipping.  Tipping is simply cultural and varies around the world from the high 20% tips often given in the USA to zero in places like Australia.  As frequent world travelers (prior to COVID-19) we usually follow the local cultural practice.   

 

As to tipping in advance (mentioned by the OP) I do not even think that is a "tip" but is more like a bribe.  A tip is something you give as a reward for services delivered.  A bribe is when you give money/gifts in advance as an inducement for future services.  I do not believe in bribery but have been know to drop a subtle hint such as "if you take good care of me I will take good care of you."  :).

 

Hank

[2wheelin]

6 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

We do not think there is any right or wrong when it comes to the subject of tipping.  Tipping is simply cultural and varies around the world from the high 20% tips often given in the USA to zero in places like Australia.  As frequent world travelers (prior to COVID-19) we usually follow the local cultural practice.   

 

As to tipping in advance (mentioned by the OP) I do not even think that is a "tip" but is more like a bribe.  A tip is something you give as a reward for services delivered.  A bribe is when you give money/gifts in advance as an inducement for future services.  I do not believe in bribery but have been know to drop a subtle hint such as "if you take good care of me I will take good care of you."  :).

 

Hank

Good point. Where does that then put prepaying tips (charges) before even on the ship?. No service rendered. Not advocating either way. Just pointing out that absolute, black and white statements (of others) don’t hold water. Words—-Hmmmmm.

[GrJ Berkshire]

2 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

But have you really left it behind? From what I've discerned in participating in these threads tipping is still common in many restaurants in the UK but more commonly at a 10% rate. 

NOPE Fake news !!!! Rarely do people tip the price is inclusive

[Hlitner]

43 minutes ago, 2wheelin said:

Good point. Where does that then put prepaying tips (charges) before even on the ship?. No service rendered. Not advocating either way. Just pointing out that absolute, black and white statements (of others) don’t hold water. Words—-Hmmmmm.

I have been flamed on CC for my opinion of cruise ship tipping.  My belief is that it should be completely eliminated.  This already exists on many of the higher end lines which have a no-tipping policy (although some folks still try to slip money to their favorite crew members).  When I started cruising in the 70s it was the era when passengers handed envelopes (full of cash) to crew members who provided direct services (cabin steward, assistant steward, waiter, assistant waiter, maitre'd).  Most cruise lines provided guidelines and pre labeled envelopes.  But when alternative dining options came into vogue, the tipping system no longer worked so they moved to auto-tips and eventually to pre-paid tips.  But my big issue with the current system is that the money is generally pooled and distributed by some top-secret formula to lots of the crew.  Those who provide outstanding service are generally getting the same "cut" as the worst crew member.    It is just a con that allows the cruise lines to market lower prices with "tips" being an add-on.   I sometimes ask folks if they tip the people who wash/iron restaurant tablecloths because this is essentially what is happening with cruise line tipping pools.   It is no longer about "taking care" of the folks who provide us outstanding direct service.

 

I would add that the cruise lines have already been forced to change their policy for their ships based out of some other countries such as Australia.  The Aussies are very anti-tip so most lines simply roll the tips into the cruise price and then have a no-tipping required policy.  

 

When we started cruising on Seabourn we had to seek advice from some frequent cruisers on how to handle tips on a line that does not want tips.  Folks told us that the norm is not to tip, but if you really are impressed with the service it is a good practice to donate money to a crew fund (used to pay for various crew functions. parties, etc).  Some folks will also slip cash to some crew members but apparently most folks adhere to the no-tipping policy.

 

Hank

[navybankerteacher]

12 minutes ago, GrJ Berkshire said:

NOPE Fake news !!!! Rarely do people tip the price is inclusive

“Fake news!!!”:  The typical response from one who wants not to believe something.  

 

In table-served restaurants a 10% for good service (which is appropriate in most countries) is appropriate. In a taxi it is typical to round up to the next pound.

Edited July 13, 2020 by navybankerteacher

[sparks1093]

11 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

“Fake news!!!”:  The typical response from one who wants not to believe something.  

 

In table-served restaurants a 10% for good service (which is appropriate in most countries) is appropriate. In a taxi it is typical to round up to the next pound.

Yep. Here's a quote from the website www.visitlondon.com, the first thing that came up when I googled "is tipping normal in the UK":

It is customary to leave 10 to 15% of the bill when eating out. However, restaurants often add on a service charge (usually 12.5%), especially if you're in a large group, so it's worth checking your bill if you don't want to tip twice. It's not customary to pay a tip for fast food, self-service or takeaway meals.

 

(I will add that if the service charge is automatically added [which may be what the previous poster meant by "the price is inclusive"] one is still providing a tip, it is just not a voluntary thing at that point.)

[sparks1093]

14 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I have been flamed on CC for my opinion of cruise ship tipping.  My belief is that it should be completely eliminated.  This already exists on many of the higher end lines which have a no-tipping policy (although some folks still try to slip money to their favorite crew members).  When I started cruising in the 70s it was the era when passengers handed envelopes (full of cash) to crew members who provided direct services (cabin steward, assistant steward, waiter, assistant waiter, maitre'd).  Most cruise lines provided guidelines and pre labeled envelopes.  But when alternative dining options came into vogue, the tipping system no longer worked so they moved to auto-tips and eventually to pre-paid tips.  But my big issue with the current system is that the money is generally pooled and distributed by some top-secret formula to lots of the crew.  Those who provide outstanding service are generally getting the same "cut" as the worst crew member.    It is just a con that allows the cruise lines to market lower prices with "tips" being an add-on.   I sometimes ask folks if they tip the people who wash/iron restaurant tablecloths because this is essentially what is happening with cruise line tipping pools.   It is no longer about "taking care" of the folks who provide us outstanding direct service.

 

I would add that the cruise lines have already been forced to change their policy for their ships based out of some other countries such as Australia.  The Aussies are very anti-tip so most lines simply roll the tips into the cruise price and then have a no-tipping required policy.  

 

When we started cruising on Seabourn we had to seek advice from some frequent cruisers on how to handle tips on a line that does not want tips.  Folks told us that the norm is not to tip, but if you really are impressed with the service it is a good practice to donate money to a crew fund (used to pay for various crew functions. parties, etc).  Some folks will also slip cash to some crew members but apparently most folks adhere to the no-tipping policy.

 

Hank

A lot of shore based establishments pool tips and the fact is that once you've left the tip you have absolutely no control over what happens to it- it will be distributed as the establishment/staff require. And if you think about it this is really no different if the tips are included in the fare because the good and the bad staff get paid the same (eventually under either system the bad staff will be winnowed out).

[wowzz]

23 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Yep. Here's a quote from the website www.visitlondon.com, the first thing that came up when I googled "is tipping normal in the UK":

It is customary to leave 10 to 15% of the bill when eating out. However, restaurants often add on a service charge (usually 12.5%), especially if you're in a large group, so it's worth checking your bill if you don't want to tip twice. It's not customary to pay a tip for fast food, self-service or takeaway meals.

 

(I will add that if the service charge is automatically added [which may be what the previous poster meant by "the price is inclusive"] one is still providing a tip, it is just not a voluntary thing at that point.)

If a service charge us added, there us no need to leave any additional tip.

With regards to tipping in general, I would say 10% is about right here in the UK, and personally I always round the 10% up or down to the nearest £. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by wowzz

[navybankerteacher]

27 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

A lot of shore based establishments pool tips and the fact is that once you've left the tip you have absolutely no control over what happens to it- it will be distributed as the establishment/staff require. And if you think about it this is really no different if the tips are included in the fare because the good and the bad staff get paid the same (eventually under either system the bad staff will be winnowed out).

The GOOD thing about how cruise lines handle service charges is that it enables you to put the extra money in the hands of those who deserve it.  The shared auto-tip (over the distribution of which you have no control) is intended to cover the “good” service from the ship’s company as a whole - and if you are unsatisfied, you can reduce/remove it.   As a matter of fact, that $12 per person per day, or so, is not all.  that generous when you consider what tipping for three meals per day and chambermaid tips on shore might come to.

 

If you have received really superior service from a room steward or waiter, you can give him/her a bit extra at the end of the cruise - and he/she gets to keep it all.  Of course, those who do not like the notion of tipping in the first place would not care — but then, perhaps their sense of ethics might impel them to avoid cruising - where tipping is kind of imbedded.

 

 

[sparks1093]

49 minutes ago, wowzz said:

If a service charge us added, there us no need to leave any additional tip.

With regards to tipping in general, I would say 10% is about right here in the UK, and personally I always round the 10% up or down to the nearest £. 

I agree that there is no need for an additional tip but the service charge is taking the place of the tip, so you are still tipping and the UK hasn't really left it behind.

[clo]

2 hours ago, 2wheelin said:

Good point. Where does that then put prepaying tips (charges) before even on the ship?. No service rendered. Not advocating either way. Just pointing out that absolute, black and white statements (of others) don’t hold water. Words—-Hmmmmm.

I didn't have the impression that the employees get that money in the beginning but rather the end.  No?