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Are vaccines the light at the end of the tunnel?


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9 hours ago, markeb said:

 

#1 I'm not going to minimize the risk of reinfection, but I haven't seen anything that proves it. Early reports were of recovery of viral RNA via PCR, which is not an indication of viability. Probably need to hit the search engines again, but I've not seen anything (yet) that makes it more than an academic concern, and also not common if it does occur. That could change with more data. Certainly there was early data suggesting a lesser immune response to a less serious infection, so asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic individuals might have a lesser immune response and viral recovery from subsequent exposure might be more likely in them.

 

#2 Early reports on the vaccine candidates showed good T-Cell responses. Antibodies can decline fairly rapidly, but if there's a good population of T-Cells, you still can get a good anamnestic response from exposure, and a rapid increase in antibodies when actually needed. The various clinical trials should get a better feel for that through whatever booster studies they do. For their biological license application, the various sponsors will almost certainly report antibody titers over time, as they're easy to review. They may also have limited meaning. So I think we should all take a deep breath on antibodies. The challenge for licensure and vaccination schedules could be if there's immunity, but antibody titers prove to not be a great correlate of immunity. The natural exposure studies in Phase III should smooth out that data.

 

We're hitting that point that demonstrates why most vaccine development takes a long time and a lot of money...

Hi,

There was an interesting article on CNN by Dr. William Haseltine about herd

immunity and reinfection. He is an OUTSTANDING scientist! He gives

some info on another coronavirus  NL63 (HCoV-NL63) that was well

studied and is quite interesting about reinfection. I also totally agree

with your comments that immune cellular memory is important.

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9 hours ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

Ok.  Understand but that does not answer my question.  Since the older you get the less effective your immunize system does that mean 80% effective at 20, 60% at 40 and progressively less for older people?

 

 

no one will know until the study data is analyzed. a good look at the subgroups will take more time than getting overall efficacy. 

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Is this possibly what we've been waiting to see with regards to the RCG and NCLH Healthy Sail Panel conclusions which are summarized on Page 9?

 

https://www.royalcaribbeangroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Healthy-Sail-Panel_Full-Recommendations_9.21.20_FINAL.pdf

 

The following document represents the findings of a four-month effort by a panel of experts in public health, infectious disease, biosecurity, epidemiology, hospitality, and maritime operations. The Healthy Sail Panel (the Panel; the Expert Panel) was convened at the request of cruise industry leaders Royal Caribbean Group and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Ltd.

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6 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Is this possibly what we've been waiting to see with regards to the RCG and NCLH Healthy Sail Panel conclusions which are summarized on Page 9?

 

https://www.royalcaribbeangroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Healthy-Sail-Panel_Full-Recommendations_9.21.20_FINAL.pdf

 

The following document represents the findings of a four-month effort by a panel of experts in public health, infectious disease, biosecurity, epidemiology, hospitality, and maritime operations. The Healthy Sail Panel (the Panel; the Expert Panel) was convened at the request of cruise industry leaders Royal Caribbean Group and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Ltd.

That indeed is the report we have been waiting for.

The points important to my DW and self are:

Shorter cruises

Destinations at first to cruiseline owned ports.

Port calls limited by the port ability to disembark and treat COVID patients

Masks except outside ones cabin except while eating or drinking

Shore excursions limited to cruiseline operated tours.

 

An observation is these rules would make our TA via Greenland and Iceland not likely.  DW with asthma is not able to wear a mask for an extended time.  We also enjoy small group tours.  We would cancell given these rules.  Again lots can change in 10 months.

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56 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

For those of you science and medical types out there reading this thread you can get a daily email from the CDC Library called COVID-19 Science Updates.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/library/covid19/scienceupdates.html?Sort=Date%3A%3Adesc

 

Thanks for the link.  Lucky me, I was selected for the site user syrvey.

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1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

IMO, it's unfortunate that the US and China have chosen not to join this program.

The US does not fund WHO under the current administration as of a few months ago.  China is developing their own vaccine and own program.

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3 hours ago, TeeRick said:

The US does not fund WHO under the current administration as of a few months ago.  China is developing their own vaccine and own program.

Rick, do you mind if I pick your mind?  What do you think about this? Been reading about COVID and the MMR vaccine. I also have colleagues getting a booster. 

 https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200908/could-the-mmr-vaccine-help-prevent-covid-19-new-trial-may-tell#2

https://www.wjbf.com/community/study-suggests-mmr-vaccine-offers-some-protection-against-covid-19-symptoms/

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52 minutes ago, drarill said:

Rick, do you mind if I pick your mind?  What do you think about this? Been reading about COVID and the MMR vaccine. I also have colleagues getting a booster. 

 https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200908/could-the-mmr-vaccine-help-prevent-covid-19-new-trial-may-tell#2

https://www.wjbf.com/community/study-suggests-mmr-vaccine-offers-some-protection-against-covid-19-symptoms/

I'm interested to hear what folks have to say as well regarding the MMR shot and its ability to boost the general immune response for a COVID vaccine once they are available. Funny thing, I started this thread noting the fact my DW and I are in our late 60's and recently got the MMR shot for just the reasons mentioned in these two articles. When we were young the MMR shot was not available yet, so we got the mumps and measles the old fashion way.

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2 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

I'm interested to hear what folks have to say as well regarding the MMR shot and its ability to boost the general immune response for a COVID vaccine once they are available. Funny thing, I started this thread noting the fact my DW and I are in our late 60's and recently got the MMR shot for just the reasons mentioned in these two articles. When we were young the MMR shot was not available yet, so we got the mumps and measles the old fashion way.

 

Hi

I didn't read the articles in your post but I did research on my own quite some time ago and it led me to get a booster.  Can't hurt, especially since I read the Rubella antibody has a close resemblance to the COVID19 antibody.

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1 hour ago, mimbecky said:

 

Hi

I didn't read the articles in your post but I did research on my own quite some time ago and it led me to get a booster.  Can't hurt, especially since I read the Rubella antibody has a close resemblance to the COVID19 antibody.

With all the positives we have recently read about the MMR vaccine and really no downside we could see, we figured what the heck. Of course, we'll really never know for sure if it helps, but to not take it given our age and all that's going on right now, it just seemed to us like the right thing to do.

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OK this is a very interesting topic (MMR vaccine and COVID) that I have been following.  Initially I thought no way - but I am now thinking there might be something to it. 

1) The group at Washington University St Louis is a very good medical team coordinating the 30,000 person trial.

https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/global-trial-to-test-whether-mmr-vaccine-protects-front-line-health-care-workers-against-covid-19/

2) Most of us have had the MMR vaccine in early childhood and it offers T-Cell based protection against those 3 viruses (mixture of 3 live attenuated viruses).  It also offers some neutralizing antibody protection for years (20?) but we lose it later in life.

3)  It seems that 30 AA residues share similarities between the Spike (S) of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and the Fusion glycoprotein of Measles virus and the envelope glycoprotein of the Rubella virus.  This might provide protective T-Cell epitopes and antibodies.

4) Boosting with MMR as an adult might be a general boost to the immune system helping protect against COVID.  

5) Some interesting points to consider: why are our kids mostly protected from COVID disease even if positive for the virus?  And younger people in general? Perhaps because they have "fresher" immunity from more recent MMR vaccinations vs older adults?

6) The case of the USS Roosevelt is quite interesting.  The US Navy gave all sailors a booster MMR vaccine.  It was reported that 955 sailors were positive for the virus but only 1 hospitalized.  Interesting!

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2020/05/01/2026166/0/en/MMR-Vaccine-May-Reduce-COVID-19-Hospitalization-Rate-According-to-World-Organization.html

 

I am open-minded on this approach and am considering getting an MMR booster myself.  It is safe and can't hurt.

 

There are similar studies with the BCG vaccine and protection against COVID in those countries (not US) that use it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7413058/

 

 

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13 hours ago, mimbecky said:

 

Hi

I didn't read the articles in your post but I did research on my own quite some time ago and it led me to get a booster.  Can't hurt, especially since I read the Rubella antibody has a close resemblance to the COVID19 antibody.

Whatever it is that thing has killed over 200k people in the US alone. I dont care whether its bodies or antibodies or whatever, I want to stay away from it unless the vaccine is around. My guess would be 2-3 months and we will have it and start a normal life again. 

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36 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

No idea if anyone saw this article, but it's quite interesting:

 

https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/09/21/scitranslmed.abd5487

 

The "dumbed down" version (which I found quite helpful! :classic_smile:😞

 

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/kids-better-immune-response-covid19-compared-adults-study-173710433.html

K.T.B. the first article you posted here is quite interesting!

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13 minutes ago, Roger88 said:

Whatever it is that thing has killed over 200k people in the US alone. I dont care whether its bodies or antibodies or whatever, I want to stay away from it unless the vaccine is around. My guess would be 2-3 months and we will have it and start a normal life again. 

We might have a vaccine in 2-3 months.  Possible.  But a normal life even with an approved vaccine is not in that time frame.

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1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

OK this is a very interesting topic (MMR vaccine and COVID) that I have been following.  Initially I thought no way - but I am now thinking there might be something to it. 

1) The group at Washington University St Louis is a very good medical team coordinating the 30,000 person trial.

https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/global-trial-to-test-whether-mmr-vaccine-protects-front-line-health-care-workers-against-covid-19/

2) Most of us have had the MMR vaccine in early childhood and it offers T-Cell based protection against those 3 viruses (mixture of 3 live attenuated viruses).  It also offers some neutralizing antibody protection for years (20?) but we lose it later in life.

3)  It seems that 30 AA residues share similarities between the Spike (S) of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and the Fusion glycoprotein of Measles virus and the envelope glycoprotein of the Rubella virus.  This might provide protective T-Cell epitopes and antibodies.

4) Boosting with MMR as an adult might be a general boost to the immune system helping protect against COVID.  

5) Some interesting points to consider: why are our kids mostly protected from COVID disease even if positive for the virus?  And younger people in general? Perhaps because they have "fresher" immunity from more recent MMR vaccinations vs older adults?

6) The case of the USS Roosevelt is quite interesting.  The US Navy gave all sailors a booster MMR vaccine.  It was reported that 955 sailors were positive for the virus but only 1 hospitalized.  Interesting!

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2020/05/01/2026166/0/en/MMR-Vaccine-May-Reduce-COVID-19-Hospitalization-Rate-According-to-World-Organization.html

 

I am open-minded on this approach and am considering getting an MMR booster myself.  It is safe and can't hurt.

 

There are similar studies with the BCG vaccine and protection against COVID in those countries (not US) that use it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7413058/

 

 

Thanks Rick! already have an appointment for my booster this Friday.  Hope the researchers are checking if those children that are getting sick were immunized or not. 

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1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

OK this is a very interesting topic (MMR vaccine and COVID) that I have been following.  Initially I thought no way - but I am now thinking there might be something to it. 

1) The group at Washington University St Louis is a very good medical team coordinating the 30,000 person trial.

https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/global-trial-to-test-whether-mmr-vaccine-protects-front-line-health-care-workers-against-covid-19/

2) Most of us have had the MMR vaccine in early childhood and it offers T-Cell based protection against those 3 viruses (mixture of 3 live attenuated viruses).  It also offers some neutralizing antibody protection for years (20?) but we lose it later in life.

3)  It seems that 30 AA residues share similarities between the Spike (S) of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and the Fusion glycoprotein of Measles virus and the envelope glycoprotein of the Rubella virus.  This might provide protective T-Cell epitopes and antibodies.

4) Boosting with MMR as an adult might be a general boost to the immune system helping protect against COVID.  

5) Some interesting points to consider: why are our kids mostly protected from COVID disease even if positive for the virus?  And younger people in general? Perhaps because they have "fresher" immunity from more recent MMR vaccinations vs older adults?

6) The case of the USS Roosevelt is quite interesting.  The US Navy gave all sailors a booster MMR vaccine.  It was reported that 955 sailors were positive for the virus but only 1 hospitalized.  Interesting!

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2020/05/01/2026166/0/en/MMR-Vaccine-May-Reduce-COVID-19-Hospitalization-Rate-According-to-World-Organization.html

 

I am open-minded on this approach and am considering getting an MMR booster myself.  It is safe and can't hurt.

 

There are similar studies with the BCG vaccine and protection against COVID in those countries (not US) that use it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7413058/

 

 

Thanks for the lit search. Like many other questions about Covid, we may learn the answer to this one when, hopefully, it is somewhat irrelevant.

 I was going to add the BCG data, but you already did.

It is sounding more and more that Immunity to Covid may well multifactorial, with a heavy dose of cellular immunity, may be developing around us (at least those of us living in states with low, but widespread ongoing infections) and will be hard to measure because Abs are only part of the story.

 

 I think it is imperative that before vaccination becomes widespread, we figure out why the spectrum of disease is so wide/why kids rarely get sick. I say that because I think it may significantly change recommendations for children, especially young children.

 

Also I thought Rubella immunity lasted much longer than 20 years, we don’t routinely revaccinate adults. All staff in healthcare settings are routinely tested for rubella at time of hire, so some people get retested multiple times and I’ve only rarely heard of someone being negative. I do know one individual, early 40s, who has never tested positive and has had 3-4 vaccinations, so it does happen.

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1 hour ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Well, it looks like the gang is all here now as J&J has just entered their Phase 3 trials with their one and done vaccine - https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/johnson-and-johnson-enters-phase-3-trial-for-single-dose-coronavirus-vaccine/ar-BB19l3Co?ocid=uxbndlbing

Let's hope it works!  J&J Janssen vaccine is a human adenovector (AD-26) based vaccine so a bit different than AZ/Oxford approach (chimpanzee adenovector) and different than other similar approaches using human AD-5 vectors (CanSino-China). 

 

Of interest I believe the Russian Vaccine (Sputnik) uses a prime boost with AD-5 and AD-26 vectors.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31866-3/fulltext

 

I am hoping that the protein subunit vaccines being developed move along quickly as they are tried and true technology in people.  (GSK, Novavax, Sanofi)

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1 hour ago, cangelmd said:

Thanks for the lit search. Like many other questions about Covid, we may learn the answer to this one when, hopefully, it is somewhat irrelevant.

 I was going to add the BCG data, but you already did.

It is sounding more and more that Immunity to Covid may well multifactorial, with a heavy dose of cellular immunity, may be developing around us (at least those of us living in states with low, but widespread ongoing infections) and will be hard to measure because Abs are only part of the story.

 

 I think it is imperative that before vaccination becomes widespread, we figure out why the spectrum of disease is so wide/why kids rarely get sick. I say that because I think it may significantly change recommendations for children, especially young children.

 

Also I thought Rubella immunity lasted much longer than 20 years, we don’t routinely revaccinate adults. All staff in healthcare settings are routinely tested for rubella at time of hire, so some people get retested multiple times and I’ve only rarely heard of someone being negative. I do know one individual, early 40s, who has never tested positive and has had 3-4 vaccinations, so it does happen.

We truly are learning much about SARS-CoV-2 and its immune responses and about COVID disease.  Very quickly.  More to be learned but it bodes well for defeating this beast!

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