Are vaccines the light at the end of the tunnel?

[LGW59]

On 12/9/2020 at 9:47 AM, TeeRick said:

Fly and Sail has an opinion and although many do not agree with his/her callous comments on old age I personally feel no need to give a dismissive response.  I would acknowledge that the intent of the post was to highlight the advantages of vaccinating and protecting young people.  But of course IMO not to the exclusion of older people.  That is worth a discussion I think.   Perhaps young adults and children should not be vaccinated first right now for obvious reasons with a highly limited vaccine distribution.  But infections in younger people are causing the surge and spread.  Younger kids are reservoirs for many infectious diseases that are passed on to parents and grandparents.  The clinical studies did not focus on vaccinating the under-18 age group.  But they will need to do so going forward.  Yes the point about longer term life long health effects of COVID should be quite a concern too.

TeeRick, you are very diplomatic and kind, as you always are.  While I am doubtful, perhaps Fly and Sail read between the lines in your well written response.  I highly doubt it though, but one can hope.  Oh and Fly and Sail, BYE!

[TeeRick]

14 hours ago, LGW59 said:

TeeRick, you are very diplomatic and kind, as you always are.  While I am doubtful, perhaps Fly and Sail read between the lines in your well written response.  I highly doubt it though, but one can hope.  Oh and Fly and Sail, BYE!

Thanks for the kind words.  I appreciate it.  At least the F&S comments stimulated a discussion on kids and COVID and kids vaccine trials here so that was (is) a good thing.  Kids cruise too!😀.  

[TeeRick]

For those of you interested the full NE Journal of Medicine article on the phase 3 clinical results of the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine can be found here.   FDA advisory committee recommended this go forward yesterday.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577

 

If you prefer a shorter more basic editorial on the meaning of the results in the same journal, see this:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2034717?query=recirc_curatedRelated_article

 

Yes we will be cruising before you know it!

 

 

[TeeRick]

But  ----GSK/Sanofi had a bit of a setback with their more traditional (purified protein subunit) vaccine and now says it will not be ready for phase 3 until second half of 2021.  They got a less than expected immune responses in those over 50 years old.  Possibly a formulation issue according to the company.   It will be interesting to see if Novavax has a similar issue since they also use this approach.

 

This really shows how lucky we are to have both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines right now.  The issues with GSK/Sanofi and AZ/Oxford vaccines are normal in traditional vaccine development timelines.  It does not mean their vaccines will not work but the speed of their development has been stalled a bit awaiting the clinical science to play out.  Normal.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/12/11/sanofi-suffers-major-setback-in-development-of-a-covid-19-vaccine/

[mimbecky]

8 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

This really shows how lucky we are to have both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines right now

 

And it looks like although we may not be able to order more Pfizer before June, it appears Moderna is eligible for immediate re-order, at least as far as I can tell.  Also, J&J data may be out end of Jan or early Feb. Breathe....

[TeeRick]

4 minutes ago, mimbecky said:

 

And it looks like although we may not be able to order more Pfizer before June, it appears Moderna is eligible for immediate re-order, at least as far as I can tell.  Also, J&J data may be out end of Jan or early Feb. Breathe....

Good things come to those that wait..... even until April or May!

[PTC DAWG]

Only 4 out of 64

 

https://twitter.com/o_rips/status/1336873007151603714

 

[ECCruise]

47 minutes ago, PTC DAWG said:

Only 4 out of 64

 

https://twitter.com/o_rips/status/1336873007151603714

 

All 4 cases of Bell's Palsy that this cites recovered.  Bell's is generally a temporary affliction but can be pretty severe, having known someone that was struck with it.

[cruise kitty]

Hi all, another update on my pfizer vaccine trial experience.  First off, I'm not a Dr. or scientist, so I can only relay my personal experience & what I've been told by the trial clinic.

 

It's been about month since our second shots.  My husband (55) DD (29) SIL(29) all participated. DH & DD both have asthma.   The day after 2nd shot, SIL & I both had low fever, headache, chills.   DH only had a sore arm, DD had zero, & I mean zero reaction.

 

Well, guess what, Steve (DH) & DD received the real thing, SIL & I are team placebo.  ;)

 

We all plan on remaining with the two year study...depending on how us placebo people are vaccinated within the study (SIL is a police officer, & his particular position will put him in line right after HCW)  I will stay as long as the study does not make me wait for my shots any longer than I would in "real world" time.  

 

Just want to reassure everyone concerned that for us, the side effects were minimal to none, & the benefit to ourselves & society far outweighed the risk.

 

Of course, YMMV...the more people that take the shots when available to them, the more we can protect those unable to receive shots for medical reasons.

 

& in case you are wondering, I'm not allowed to say how we know who received what, but we do know in a very concrete way :)  We had tears, hugs, & parking lot champagne outside the clinic after.  

 

Still tearing up when I think about it,  this is our way forward, & our way to get unstuck... & by "our" I mean the human race.  

 

Best wishes to everyone!  & yes, we still are wearing masks & social distancing ;)

[TeeRick]

2 minutes ago, cruise kitty said:

Hi all, another update on my pfizer vaccine trial experience.  First off, I'm not a Dr. or scientist, so I can only relay my personal experience & what I've been told by the trial clinic.

 

It's been about month since our second shots.  My husband (55) DD (29) SIL(29) all participated. DH & DD both have asthma.   The day after 2nd shot, SIL & I both had low fever, headache, chills.   DH only had a sore arm, DD had zero, & I mean zero reaction.

 

Well, guess what, Steve (DH) & DD received the real thing, SIL & I are team placebo. 😉

 

We all plan on remaining with the two year study...depending on how us placebo people are vaccinated within the study (SIL is a police officer, & his particular position will put him in line right after HCW)  I will stay as long as the study does not make me wait for my shots any longer than I would in "real world" time.  

 

Just want to reassure everyone concerned that for us, the side effects were minimal to none, & the benefit to ourselves & society far outweighed the risk.

 

Of course, YMMV...the more people that take the shots when available to them, the more we can protect those unable to receive shots for medical reasons.

 

& in case you are wondering, I'm not allowed to say how we know who received what, but we do know in a very concrete way 🙂  We had tears, hugs, & parking lot champagne outside the clinic after.  

 

Still tearing up when I think about it,  this is our way forward, & our way to get unstuck... & by "our" I mean the human race.  

 

Best wishes to everyone!  & yes, we still are wearing masks & social distancing 😉

Thank You For Your Service!!!!!!!!

[cangelmd]

5 hours ago, mimbecky said:

 

And it looks like although we may not be able to order more Pfizer before June, it appears Moderna is eligible for immediate re-order, at least as far as I can tell.  Also, J&J data may be out end of Jan or early Feb. Breathe....

Glad you saw that. Until Pfizer can lick the -70 storage issue, usage in the Us is logistically limited to people who can be reached at a central location, whether it’s at work, in a group living situation, or by going to the health department or a mass vaccination site. We are just a much bigger country than Europe or UK. I really don’t think there is going to be a huge drop off in vaccine supply except maybe March/April, when they first open up to general population.

I know you have fretted a lot about this Mimbecky, but I don’t think supply will be the problem at all other than spot shortages and/or a couple of weeks between January and April when the country actually switches from one vaccine to another.

 

If J and J runs into a snafu, we may have a significant delay.

[cangelmd]

1 hour ago, cruise kitty said:

Hi all, another update on my pfizer vaccine trial experience.  First off, I'm not a Dr. or scientist, so I can only relay my personal experience & what I've been told by the trial clinic.

 

It's been about month since our second shots.  My husband (55) DD (29) SIL(29) all participated. DH & DD both have asthma.   The day after 2nd shot, SIL & I both had low fever, headache, chills.   DH only had a sore arm, DD had zero, & I mean zero reaction.

 

Well, guess what, Steve (DH) & DD received the real thing, SIL & I are team placebo. 😉

 

We all plan on remaining with the two year study...depending on how us placebo people are vaccinated within the study (SIL is a police officer, & his particular position will put him in line right after HCW)  I will stay as long as the study does not make me wait for my shots any longer than I would in "real world" time.  

 

Just want to reassure everyone concerned that for us, the side effects were minimal to none, & the benefit to ourselves & society far outweighed the risk.

 

Of course, YMMV...the more people that take the shots when available to them, the more we can protect those unable to receive shots for medical reasons.

 

& in case you are wondering, I'm not allowed to say how we know who received what, but we do know in a very concrete way 🙂  We had tears, hugs, & parking lot champagne outside the clinic after.  

 

Still tearing up when I think about it,  this is our way forward, & our way to get unstuck... & by "our" I mean the human race.  

 

Best wishes to everyone!  & yes, we still are wearing masks & social distancing 😉

Yes, thank you for your contribution- you are all first responders!

And isn’t that placebo effect a powerful thing?

[Covepointcruiser]

Actually some of the Pacebos were the Meningitis vaccine which would explain the reaction.

[D C]

3 hours ago, cangelmd said:

Glad you saw that. Until Pfizer can lick the -70 storage issue, usage in the Us is logistically limited to people who can be reached at a central location, whether it’s at work, in a group living situation, or by going to the health department or a mass vaccination site. We are just a much bigger country than Europe or UK. I really don’t think there is going to be a huge drop off in vaccine supply except maybe March/April, when they first open up to general population.

I know you have fretted a lot about this Mimbecky, but I don’t think supply will be the problem at all other than spot shortages and/or a couple of weeks between January and April when the country actually switches from one vaccine to another.

 

If J and J runs into a snafu, we may have a significant delay.

The cold storage requirement is a non-issue.  Dry ice + FedEx & UPS.   

[Fouremco]

12 minutes ago, D C said:

The cold storage requirement is a non-issue.  Dry ice + FedEx & UPS.   

The roll out has just started in Canada and cold storage is most definitely an issue according to federal and provincial authorities.

[LGW59]

1 hour ago, D C said:

The cold storage requirement is a non-issue.  Dry ice + FedEx & UPS.   

for some vaccines, it is most definitely an issue.

[cangelmd]

1 hour ago, D C said:

The cold storage requirement is a non-issue.  Dry ice + FedEx & UPS.   

I am concerned about the dry ice. It isn’t unlimited and that means it needs to be used or get into a -70. As with all other hospital supplies, dry ice will rapidly become precious. You know that convalescent plasma you keep hearing about? Guess what it gets shipped to us on - yep, dry ice. Regular fresh frozen plasma is shipped on dry ice too, as well as other reagents and materials that need to stay frozen.

My hospital, and likely many other midsize hospitals are going to try to keep the vaccine on the dry ice until we use it - that will be a huge increase in demand. We have -70 freezers and had to submit backup plans to state public health for putting those into use in a pinch, but it would be a lot easier to thaw and use the vaccine. I’m not sure, at least in AL, but vaccine may only be shipped to the hospitals that had some -70 capacity.

[Ken the cruiser]

The FDA just approved the EUA for the Pfizer/BioNTech COVID vaccine.

 

Pfizer, BioNTech Covid-19 Vaccine Is Authorized in the U.S. - WSJ

 

FDA OKs Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

 

Hopefully in a week's time they will also approve the EUA for the Moderna vaccine as well.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Ken the cruiser

[D C]

15 minutes ago, cangelmd said:

I am concerned about the dry ice. It isn’t unlimited and that means it needs to be used or get into a -70. As with all other hospital supplies, dry ice will rapidly become precious. You know that convalescent plasma you keep hearing about? Guess what it gets shipped to us on - yep, dry ice. Regular fresh frozen plasma is shipped on dry ice too, as well as other reagents and materials that need to stay frozen.

My hospital, and likely many other midsize hospitals are going to try to keep the vaccine on the dry ice until we use it - that will be a huge increase in demand. We have -70 freezers and had to submit backup plans to state public health for putting those into use in a pinch, but it would be a lot easier to thaw and use the vaccine. I’m not sure, at least in AL, but vaccine may only be shipped to the hospitals that had some -70 capacity.

Dry ice is unlimited for all intents and purposes. It's carbon dioxide and has an ample supply as an industrial gas.  You can even make dry ice at home. 

[LGW59]

8 hours ago, Doubt It said:

 

Thank you very much for your excellent post, I appreciate your analysis and summation. 

 

My father is 93 in a retirement home, I would suspect he would be in the first tier of vaccination as he is vulnerable to infection due to the large # of people he is exposed to. 

 

Happy TGIF!

surely you jest!

[cangelmd]

6 minutes ago, D C said:

Dry ice is unlimited for all intents and purposes. It's carbon dioxide and has an ample supply as an industrial gas.  You can even make dry ice at home. 

I am not communicating well. Yes, it’s CO2 and we are breathing it out and warming up the earth, but someone has to compress that gas and turn it into a solid. The industrial process for doing that, at least in my midsize city is done by a single supplier. We have had issues getting dry ice before when the supplier had a compressor down and definitely after a hurricane. I’m concerned that when there is a sudden surge in demand, it will become hard to get - we’ve run out of cotton testing swabs, pipettes and plastic bags, we have masks, but not bouffant caps - it might not take much to make dry ice a precious commodity as a short time situation.

[Tippyton]

7 hours ago, cangelmd said:

Glad you saw that. Until Pfizer can lick the -70 storage issue, usage in the Us is logistically limited to people who can be reached at a central location, whether it’s at work, in a group living situation, or by going to the health department or a mass vaccination site. We are just a much bigger country than Europe or UK. I really don’t think there is going to be a huge drop off in vaccine supply except maybe March/April, when they first open up to general population.

I know you have fretted a lot about this Mimbecky, but I don’t think supply will be the problem at all other than spot shortages and/or a couple of weeks between January and April when the country actually switches from one vaccine to another.

 

If J and J runs into a snafu, we may have a significant delay.

Licking anything at -70F is a bad idea.

[K.T.B.]

2 hours ago, Tippyton said:

Licking anything at -70F is a bad idea.

 

Yeah....

 

[ipeeinthepool]

17 hours ago, mimbecky said:

 

And it looks like although we may not be able to order more Pfizer before June, it appears Moderna is eligible for immediate re-order, at least as far as I can tell.  Also, J&J data may be out end of Jan or early Feb. Breathe....

 

It will be interesting to see how the Pfizer issue turns out.  If the cold storage presents an issue for the US, I suspect that it might be even more of a problem for the rest of the world.  Pfizer may find that the US may be a more accessible market for them.  

[TeeRick]

7 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Yeah....

 

Kevin- A Christmas Story is one of my three favorite XMAS movie comedies the others being Christmas Vacation and Elf.  I just found out recently that the frozen pole that you picture here actually had a small opening where he has his "stuck" tongue and the pole is hooked up on the bottom to a strong vacuum.  So the tongue appears frozen to the pole.  Ah but I diverge from our topic.  Sorry.  Let's get those kids vaccinated!😀