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7 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

In the thread on Canadian-only cruises she mentioned being married to a Canadian and was recently let into Canada due to the recent spousal exemption.  According to her she is living in a community not far from London, Ontario, and the entire region has a mandatory mask requirement.  

 

I guess she hasn't been to any stores up in Canada.  They won't put up with that nonsense.   

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2 hours ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

Yes, most people in Sweden are complying with social distancing voluntarily. We also have rules to avoid bars and restaurants to be too crowded.

 

There are things we haven't done. We haven't closed the schools for the youngest children. We don't wear masks. Shops, bars and restaurants have been open all the time.

 

Why isn't it worse than it is? I still don't know anyone with confirmed Covid-19 and my life goes on like before. I don't say that it's over yet but there are no signs that it's getting worse.

 

How important can the masks be? Is the voluntarily social distancing we practise enough? As I have said before too many people have died here but right now we are doing fine.  


and obviously I don’t know. I would not say that Americans generally practice good social distancing so the masks may be the saving grace to prevent another shut down. To give an example. I work in a large work place. We have had many COVID cases and continue to get more every day. Yet, while masks have been mandated since May, very few people wear masks regularly, even when working side by side someone else. Management continues to put out orders to wear mask but the front line supervisors don’t want to wear them do they don’t enforce it. How many COVID cases will be too many to get people to finally go follow the masks and distancing? No idea... I guess once we have someone seriously ill from it people may take it more seriously. Now, just for the record, I wear my mask and everyone on my floor wears their mask (partially because most of us agree s the masks and partially because the top brass work on our floor).

 

but maybe the social distancing OR masks both are effective. Problem is too many people here aren’t doing either...

Edited by sanger727
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On 7/19/2020 at 1:32 PM, K32682 said:

 

You mentioned in another thread that you are married to a Canadian and are currently in Canada under the spousal exemption. Where are you located? If Quebec masks are mandatory indoors across the province.  In Ontario, most of the province requires them or soon will.  It's great that you social distance.  Put on a mask too. 

I’m in a small town in Ontario where they weren’t required until this week, after London mandated them. Since, in my experience people don’t social distance while wearing masks, I no longer feel safe going out to public spaces and have remained on private property ever since. Thank goodness for delivery services. Social distancing is the most critical factor in preventing the spread. That’s what should be mandated. 

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On 7/20/2020 at 12:24 PM, donaldsc said:

 

I find it interesting considering your mask attitude that you come from St. Petersburg Florida.    Florida is one of the Covid hotspots in the country.  Pinellas county had 12,000 new cases on July 19.

 

DON

When I was in Florida I didn’t go out. I had everything delivered. I won’t go out to areas where social distancing isn’t practiced, and I did not get sick in Florida. Now I’m back to staying in because where I am now masks were mandated a couple of days ago and people aren’t social distancing anymore.

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On 7/21/2020 at 9:02 AM, chengkp75 said:

Then those people are ignorant of the facts and the science.  Let's say social distancing reduces potential exposure by 50%.  Let's say wearing a mask reduces potential exposure by 50%.  So, doing one or the other gives you a 50/50 chance of getting the virus.  Fine, if that is your risk threshold.  But, when combined, with both people wearing a mask, and social distancing, you reduce the risk to 12.5% (50% three times), or a 87.5% chance of not getting infected.  That is a much more preferred risk threshold.

 

You are correct, that masks cannot work in restaurants and bars, so there, social distancing must be enforced, but you then have to accept the higher risk factor from that behavior (eating or drinking in public).  And, it has been shown that in public places like restaurants and bars, and even grocery stores, that air currents from HVAC systems can transmit the virus further than the accepted "cough/sneeze" radius that is the accepted social distance.  So, social distancing is not the panacea that you proclaim.  It is important, as is mask wearing, but both need to be practiced to slow the spread of the virus.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.huffpost.com/entry/face-masks-do-not-replace-social-distancing-why_l_5e970b37c5b65eae709d3fc7/amp
Ignorant? The effectiveness of masks is “inconclusive.” The effectiveness of social distancing is conclusive. Masks are reducing social distancing because of people’s false sense of security. That’s a real problem. And that’s why I won’t go where they’re required.

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11 minutes ago, GlamorousGirl said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.huffpost.com/entry/face-masks-do-not-replace-social-distancing-why_l_5e970b37c5b65eae709d3fc7/amp
Ignorant? The effectiveness of masks is “inconclusive.” The effectiveness of social distancing is conclusive. Masks are reducing social distancing because of people’s false sense of security. That’s a real problem. And that’s why I won’t go where they’re required.

Couldn't find anything more recent than April?  Science has moved a lot on covid since then.  And, I agree that both social distancing and masks, are required, as noted in your linked article:

 

"Here’s why, and how both measures are needed to slow the spread of the virus."

 

And, as I've said, let's assume that 6 feet of social distancing is 50% effective (it is not 100% as tests of sneezing/coughing show some droplets travel further, and air currents can cause significantly larger travel radius).  And, assume, as the article states, that a DIY mask does not filter out all of the virus particles, so say 50% effective (and the article does say that masks do prevent some degree of transmission, and that even medical face masks are not 100% effective, despite their being used in surgical situations for decades), then a combination of both reduces the risk below that of either one used alone, and that is the science and fact that people are "ignorant" of.  Even if a mask is only 25% effective, if both people wear a mask, and comply with social distancing, they have created a risk factor of less than half of what social distancing alone would provide.

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3 hours ago, GlamorousGirl said:

I’m in a small town in Ontario where they weren’t required until this week, after London mandated them. Since, in my experience people don’t social distance while wearing masks, I no longer feel safe going out to public spaces and have remained on private property ever since. Thank goodness for delivery services. Social distancing is the most critical factor in preventing the spread. That’s what should be mandated. 

 

We agree social distancing is critical but so too is wearing a mask.  My region of Ontario, not that far from where you are located, was the first to require masks. I have not noted any significant change in social distancing since masks were made mandatory. 

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53 minutes ago, K32682 said:

 

We agree social distancing is critical but so too is wearing a mask.  My region of Ontario, not that far from where you are located, was the first to require masks. I have not noted any significant change in social distancing since masks were made mandatory. 

 

How much has the spread of the infection changed since masks were made mandatory? 

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16 minutes ago, sverigecruiser said:

How much has the spread of the infection changed since masks were made mandatory? 

 

Mask order implemented on June 12 on a region of 300,000 when we moved into phase 2.

 

Total number of cases in the region. 

May 12: 327

June 12: 415 (+88)

July 12: 495 (+80)

 

I understand that correlation is not causation but the fact remains new cases went down slightly while the economy opened up after the mask order. 

 

 

 

 

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So I had another sailing trip yesterday.  Two dear friends who knew the rules.   45 seconds after we left the dock- their masks came off- "Is it ok if we don't wear masks? "

 

So a mandatory rule won't work.  I dont't have a valid personal sample size but I think I have solid hypothesis here.  Any early cruise opening will have to be all-volunteer, opt-in.   100% mask compliance and social distancing + ship tweaks /redesigns.    

 

So start a new line or charter.  This diverts all the mask angst from your core brand.  Make the name obvious- like "New Deal" or named after a famous Democrat.    This will discourage potential protesters from booking or being "surprised" by the mask requirement.   Find a ship and make modifications. 

 

Being on a cruise ship now you cannot possibly social distance (6 feet).  Cabin hallways are four ish feet wide?  Common area area indoor air is currently. 60+ percent recirculated.  

 

Florida is a poor choice of virus safe home ports at the moment.  And you need a destination - maybe make a deal with the Bahamas- can we go to one of the private islands if we borrow crew from the ship or the island staff stays on a ship anchored offshore?  Maybe that is the CDC "rescue ship" also.  

 

The cattle hall boarding process will need to be re-thought.  25 small tents in the parking lot might work- and you enter from the pier like a shore excursion.  

 

We are talking about a brand new product.   And a reduced target market.  But the alternative is bleak.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ew101
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  • 5 weeks later...

You are complaining that it would be impossible to enjoy a SHOW with a mask on?

I can understand that exercising in a mask is more challenging, but sitting in a chair?  C'mon.

 

We are cruising in December (hopefully).  No matter what the ships policy, we will wear masks outside our cabin, in the casino, at the shows, while shopping, while standing in line... even at the table while waiting for dinner to be served.  And absolutely positively while on shore - whether in a ship-organized tour or on our own.

 

In addition to reducing the spread of droplets (in both directions), the mask also reminds us not to touch our faces with potentially contaminated hands.

 

After making more than 2500 masks (2000 donated to nursing homes and small businesses), we are packing enough to have 2 or 3 fresh ones a day, and making use of the ship laundry service.

 

Frankly, if you can't be troubled to wear a mask, I'd prefer you stay home anyway.  More room for me to social distance, in my mask.

For those of you willing to wear a mask, for EVERYONE'S benefit, consider rotating in clean/fresh ones... that single paper one that you have had on and off a hundred times, squished in your purse, hung over the rear-view mirror, left on the bar, etc. probably doesn't fit well anymore.

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On 7/17/2020 at 5:48 AM, ew101 said:

It's boating season here, and I have been inviting one or two friends to boat with us.  We have a PhD epidemiologist on the team and we have a mask rule and the open air cockpit is about six by eight feet.   I will say wearing a mask detracts from the onboard experience maybe 20%.  It is like wearing boat shoes when barefoot is best or a life jacket.  What has ruined everything are the comments and begging and snide remarks from the non-mask people.  "Is it ok if I don't wear a mask?  Why are you wearing a mask?  Do you know masks don't work" etc.  

 

I think the cruise lines (the smart ones anyhow) are agonizing over this- do you require masks and annoy/offend/alienate half your customers?  

 

The GLBT (and I have heard naturist and rock fan) communities have a solution here- charter the whole vessel.  So you sign away your right to infect others in a paper that you will wear a mask correctly outside your cabin always and refrain from snide comments, gestures, harassing staff etc.   It's like smoking in your cabin or lighting candles or handing beer to minors  we'll put you off the ship or in the brig.   

 

If everyone on board "believes" - the risk of transmission drops like a rock.   There is a rule on public health data - theories are theories but very large sample sizes over the long term become increasingly solid.  We can pester the lines to turn up the fresh vs recycled air dampers, etc.  

 

Those who find this unacceptable can rant from their living rooms but won't ruin things aboard and can't infect anyone.  Those aboard and the crew can enjoy time at sea - a reduced but still in my opinion satisfactory one.   If you create a new line/brand then all the angst can be deflected from your core brands.  

 

 

 

 

In my experience, the more education someone has under their belt, it's more likely he or she will understand and agree with the use of masks. I listen to conference calls with engineers weekly. These are the men and women who are concerned with the lack of understanding by the rank and file employees who protest wearing masks at work. Of course, this is not true of everyone, but it seems to follow a predictable pattern.

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On 7/26/2020 at 5:44 AM, ew101 said:

So I had another sailing trip yesterday.  Two dear friends who knew the rules.   45 seconds after we left the dock- their masks came off- "Is it ok if we don't wear masks? "

 

S

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you kick them off your boat and tell them that they were not welcome on your boat ever again?  If not, why not?  They knew the rules and it was your boat.

 

DON

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22 hours ago, Sue Do-Over said:

After making more than 2500 masks (2000 donated to nursing homes and small businesses), we are packing enough to have 2 or 3 fresh ones a day, and making use of the ship laundry service.

 

 

 

Good work.  

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8 hours ago, fyree39 said:

In my experience, the more education someone has under their belt, it's more likely he or she will understand and agree with the use of masks. I listen to conference calls with engineers weekly. These are the men and women who are concerned with the lack of understanding by the rank and file employees who protest wearing masks at work. Of course, this is not true of everyone, but it seems to follow a predictable pattern.


I don’t think it’s education. I think some people have just given up on listening to advice because of all the flip-flopping over the last few months.
 

Don’t wear masks, wear masks, go out and live your lives, stay home, go visit tourist spots, close all parks, travel bans are xenophobic, hurray for Canada for closing their border. 

 

People are starting to see the hypocrisy in those calling the shots and they’re getting fed up. 

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13 hours ago, Cruzaholic41 said:


I don’t think it’s education. I think some people have just given up on listening to advice because of all the flip-flopping over the last few months.
 

Don’t wear masks, wear masks, go out and live your lives, stay home, go visit tourist spots, close all parks, travel bans are xenophobic, hurray for Canada for closing their border. 

 

People are starting to see the hypocrisy in those calling the shots and they’re getting fed up. 

 

There really hasn't been a lot of "flip flopping". It more comes down to who you get your advice from. And that is where I think the educated part comes into play. The more educated people recognize what makes someone and "expert" and that the expert's opinions are the ones to listen to. If you just blindly listen to everything you read on the internet (which sadly more and more people are) then yes, there are mixed signals coming from every direction.  The only thing the "experts" have really waivered on is the mask wearing. Which was reasonable given the fact that we haven't had a disease in 100 years where general mask wearing was encouraged so that wasn't the first advice given. And the fact that the experts didn't recognize the problem with asymptomatic carriers and presymptomatic spread intially (new disease, it happens). They always said that if you have the virus you should wear a mask. And it evolved into "we now realize that anyone who could have the virus and not know it so everyone should wear a mask". I've never heard an expert say anything about "go out and live your lives, go visit tourist spots, or travel bans are xenophobic".  That's just noise created by people who don't like what the experts advice is.

Edited by sanger727
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My first 2 cruises were on the Carnival Paradise back in 2003, when it was a totally smoke free ship. Passengers were forewarned, and had to agree to the smoke free rules prior to booking.  I had to sign a statement that I read and understood the rules, and that ANY violation of them would result in being expelled from the ship - no warnings, no 2nd chances.  Passengers understood that even possession of any smoking materials, pipes, papers, even sealed cartons of cigarettes or "Cuban" cigars that were bought for Uncle Jim or Aunt Mary back home would be cause for being put off the ship.

 

Yes, I did see a few folk with their luggage getting escorted off the ship when in a port, but that didn't affect my onboard smoke free experience. I actually don't even know why they were leaving the ship, if they were smoking something or got into a fight with others.  But the idea basically worked for a while, until those seeking a smoke free atmosphere got tired of the same 2 itineraries on the same ship and demand dropped off.

 

So I think based on this precedent, the OP's suggestion might initially work.  If one of the 1st ships that resumes sailing is designated "MASKS MANDATORY" (along with a negative test result prior to the cruise) and there is enough publicity and pre-cruise info given out, that sailing would probably attract folks who are used to wearing masks in their home towns and craving a return to cruising under this stipulation.  COVID free cruising instead of smoke free.

 

Whether ports will allow passengers entry is debatable, especially from a ship full of Americans.  However, the cruise line can advocate for COVID free excursions that promote social distancing, outdoor activities, and mandatory masks, which may make port entry suitable to the host countries.

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16 hours ago, evandbob said:

 However, the cruise line can advocate for COVID free excursions that promote social distancing, outdoor activities, and mandatory masks, which may make port entry suitable to the host countries.

I'm changing my vote - masks are improving my on the water experience as I want to be social but also don't want to be dead.  

 

Any re-opening will have to be a mask branded charter.  This eliminates the "oh I didn't know" issue, and also the "oh we are outside US waters and the CDC can't find us" issue.  A public example will have to be made of those who refuse to follow the rules.  The lines can have a ship (or jet ferry) anchored offshore that can shuttle non-mask people (and any who test positive) back to port.  

 

I'm not sure a bus tour works where there is not much to see.  I think the private islands will need to be used.  But beaches can be roped off and under-full resorts utilized.  I think the Bahamas as an example can organize a safe beach event.    The idea is an elite tourism operation with special training.  Private beach cabanas would work.  Two of my favorite beachfront hotels already have the thatched beach shade umbrellas ten feet apart.  

 

Ships with lots of outdoor spaces will be at a premium.  Outdoor dining under a tent seems ok.  Onboard bars need to be re-thought.  Each can be a themed experience.  But no elbow to elbow. 

 

 

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