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Two Carnival Cruise Ships Have Been Sold and Two Others Going to Long Term Lay-Up Status


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10 hours ago, Jamman54 said:

I agree. I've been on several Journeys cruises where you would be hard pressed to find someone as young as 45. 😀Overall I would say that the average age on a Carnival cruise is about 45 to 55 depending on the length of the cruise. 

It depends when we sail to get a perspective on our fellow cruisers.  Our first Journey cruise, my guess is that the average age was late 60’s.   We have done spring break ones where it might have been 35.  All that said, it is not all that important. Would love to repeat our Journey cruise on Breeze, it ranks high on our past cruise list.  

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14 hours ago, Jamman54 said:

I agree. I've been on several Journeys cruises where you would be hard pressed to find someone as young as 45. 😀Overall I would say that the average age on a Carnival cruise is about 45 to 55 depending on the length of the cruise. 

 

3 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

It depends when we sail to get a perspective on our fellow cruisers.  Our first Journey cruise, my guess is that the average age was late 60’s.   We have done spring break ones where it might have been 35.  All that said, it is not all that important. Would love to repeat our Journey cruise on Breeze, it ranks high on our past cruise list.  

No surprise there. Most of my peers can’t take off that long for work or even afford a vacation like that. I’m usually one of the youngest passengers onboard my Princess cruises that are 10+ days and that was the same on the Carnival Magic Transatlantic 9 years ago.

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8 minutes ago, xDisconnections said:

 

No surprise there. Most of my peers can’t take off that long for work or even afford a vacation like that. I’m usually one of the youngest passengers onboard my Princess cruises that are 10+ days and that was the same on the Carnival Magic Transatlantic 9 years ago.

Retired people do tend to have a lot more free time, I have noticed.  So as long as they can afford the longer cruise, they are likely to drive up the average age.

 

Both my wife and I switched jobs in the last couple of years.  In our industry that means resetting your vacation allotment to two weeks, three if you are lucky.  We had been getting 4 or 5 weeks a year previously.

 

(And having worked in a different country previously, even 4 to 5 weeks is kinda lame, from a global perspective...)

 

So we simply do not have the luxury of time to take off from work.

 

I'm going to try to negotiate more time off in lieu of a salary increase, since even though I am not too close to retirement, it is pretty clear that time is a precious commodity to me - wish I had appreciated it more previously in my career...

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37 minutes ago, xDisconnections said:

 

No surprise there. Most of my peers can’t take off that long for work or even afford a vacation like that. I’m usually one of the youngest passengers onboard my Princess cruises that are 10+ days and that was the same on the Carnival Magic Transatlantic 9 years ago.

On our Journey cruise, there was a traffic jam of walkers and scooters at the MDR.  

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25 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

Retired people do tend to have a lot more free time, I have noticed.  So as long as they can afford the longer cruise, they are likely to drive up the average age.

 

Both my wife and I switched jobs in the last couple of years.  In our industry that means resetting your vacation allotment to two weeks, three if you are lucky.  We had been getting 4 or 5 weeks a year previously.

 

(And having worked in a different country previously, even 4 to 5 weeks is kinda lame, from a global perspective...)

 

So we simply do not have the luxury of time to take off from work.

 

I'm going to try to negotiate more time off in lieu of a salary increase, since even though I am not too close to retirement, it is pretty clear that time is a precious commodity to me - wish I had appreciated it more previously in my career...

Highly recommend a Journey cruise .  

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You do realize a Spirit class ship only holds about 3.5% more at double occupancy than a Fantasy class ship, right?  Besides, I was referring to 2026 - six years from now - if Fascination got to retire naturally at the age of 32.

 

The Sunshine class will be an interesting case as they move into their thirties despite being treated as younger ships for marketing purposes.

Edited by tidecat
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On 8/26/2020 at 8:01 PM, toad455 said:

And how soon before the Fascination is confirmed?

The Fascination has stayed put since she got to Cadiz and hasnt moved. Im surprised she was even considered for retirement as like her remaining sisters she has balconies I'd think that would make her more attractive to keep!  The other 3 Imagination,Inspiration and Fantasy had none!

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2 hours ago, roeco9084 said:

The Fascination has stayed put since she got to Cadiz and hasnt moved. Im surprised she was even considered for retirement as like her remaining sisters she has balconies I'd think that would make her more attractive to keep!  The other 3 Imagination,Inspiration and Fantasy had none!

How long can she remain in cold storage? If she re-enters service she will need her scheduled drydock (November 2020) which is another expense Carnival is trying to avoid.

 

The other question is where Fascination would be deployed. Carnival has already burnt the bridge in San Juan.

 

I guess if she can start back before April you could replace some of the canceled Imagination or Inspiration sailings, but I don't know if there's enough there to justify that deployment, especially on a temporary basis.

 

Another option would be to have a 28-year old Fascination replace a 31-year old Ecstasy in mid-2022. That effectively only buys Carnival 2.5-3 years, though, before Fascination is 31 herself. Carnival would also be banking on being able to add Celebration without actually making any other cuts.

 

An Australian deployment is probably out of the question, unless if Carnival sees a very quick ROI, like under a year.

 

Probably just best to take the $7-$8 million in scrappers' blood money when there's actually room on the beach later this year.

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2 hours ago, tidecat said:

How long can she remain in cold storage? If she re-enters service she will need her scheduled drydock (November 2020) which is another expense Carnival is trying to avoid.

 

The other question is where Fascination would be deployed. Carnival has already burnt the bridge in San Juan.

 

I guess if she can start back before April you could replace some of the canceled Imagination or Inspiration sailings, but I don't know if there's enough there to justify that deployment, especially on a temporary basis.

 

Another option would be to have a 28-year old Fascination replace a 31-year old Ecstasy in mid-2022. That effectively only buys Carnival 2.5-3 years, though, before Fascination is 31 herself. Carnival would also be banking on being able to add Celebration without actually making any other cuts.

 

An Australian deployment is probably out of the question, unless if Carnival sees a very quick ROI, like under a year.

 

Probably just best to take the $7-$8 million in scrappers' blood money when there's actually room on the beach later this year.

It could remain in long term lay up for as long as Carnival desires assuming they meet all safety regulations should they be required to have the dry dock in the middle. It may have been scheduled for Nov 2020 but as its most recent one was in 2018, it might be able to be completed further out and delay the costs a bit more.

 

Fascination could be deployed anywhere. If the bridge has been burned in San Juan, well, money talks. The two entities could reach a resolution quickly, I'm sure.

 

No need to replace the second ship in the short cruise market in California. They have a ship with increased capacity and amenities.

 

Age doesn't necessarily mean anything. What if Fascination has higher maintenance costs than Ecstasy or a higher probability of systems failure? 

 

Australia cruising might not be that lucrative for a while.

 

Agreed. It's probably best to just let the ship, well, you know.

Edited by xDisconnections
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3 hours ago, tidecat said:

How long can she remain in cold storage? If she re-enters service she will need her scheduled drydock (November 2020) which is another expense Carnival is trying to avoid.

 

 

 

Years and years. The SS United States was removed from service in 1969 has been headed for the scrappers off and on since but never made it. A few years ago, Crystal Cruises was interested in the ship, but nothing came from it.

 

istock-1129018173-640x426.jpg

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6 hours ago, tidecat said:

How long can she remain in cold storage?

It is not currently in cold layup, but in warm layup (machinery still running, power still on).  This could last indefinitely, but unless significant investment were made for preservation, going into cold layup would lead to very quick deterioration.

3 hours ago, xDisconnections said:

It could remain in long term lay up for as long as Carnival desires assuming they meet all safety regulations should they be required to have the dry dock in the middle. It may have been scheduled for Nov 2020 but as its most recent one was in 2018, it might be able to be completed further out and delay the costs a bit more.

If the ship is removed from service, the ship's certificates can be suspended, and no surveys or dockings required for the entire time the ship is laid up, but then a drydocking and survey would be needed prior to the ship re-entering service.

2 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Years and years. The SS United States was removed from service in 1969 has been headed for the scrappers off and on since but never made it. A few years ago, Crystal Cruises was interested in the ship, but nothing came from it.

This is a bit disingenuous.  The entire interior of the SSUS has been stripped out, years ago in Turkey.  None of the machinery works anymore, and hasn't for decades, even before they stripped out the asbestos insulation.  The ship was towed all the way to Turkey for revitalization 28 years ago, and then back again. The only thing Crystal was interested in getting, and would have gotten out of the SSUS was a bare steel hull.  And, the steel used in the SSUS is a much lower strength than what is used in modern ships, so the hull plating is thicker than modern ships (if its less strong, you gotta put more in), which along with the different chemical composition of the steel has allowed the hull to last this long.

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On 8/27/2020 at 2:10 PM, BlerkOne said:

Carnival knows the market of people who have never cruised is larger than the market of people who have cruised.  


When I was at a Diamond party a few years ago, the topic came up concerning how many ships Carnival could add to their inventory without any subtractions. The officers we talked to were pretty adamant that the potential demand in the US alone could fill Carnival’s current and planned future fleet for years to come (this was pre Covid). The one “fact” they reiterated several times was 97% of the US population has never been on a cruise. I don’t know how accurate that number is, but I have heard it from officers on several different ships. There is no doubt Carnival loves the novice cruiser, because they spend significantly more money during a cruise than experienced cruisers. Like any cruise line, Carnival closely tracks how much money every passenger spends on their ships. 

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3 hours ago, PhillyFan33579 said:


When I was at a Diamond party a few years ago, the topic came up concerning how many ships Carnival could add to their inventory without any subtractions. The officers we talked to were pretty adamant that the potential demand in the US alone could fill Carnival’s current and planned future fleet for years to come (this was pre Covid). The one “fact” they reiterated several times was 97% of the US population has never been on a cruise. I don’t know how accurate that number is, but I have heard it from officers on several different ships. There is no doubt Carnival loves the novice cruiser, because they spend significantly more money during a cruise than experienced cruisers. Like any cruise line, Carnival closely tracks how much money every passenger spends on their ships. 

Carnival was fine with sailing Fantasy class ships before Covid, despite claims to the contrary, they were no active plans to ditch them.  The actions to do so was purely a financial one with covid.  I have heard anywhere between 97 and 90+ % of the US has not cruised,  first time cruisers are their sweet spot for many reasons, including thos you hit on.  

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3 hours ago, PhillyFan33579 said:


When I was at a Diamond party a few years ago, the topic came up concerning how many ships Carnival could add to their inventory without any subtractions. The officers we talked to were pretty adamant that the potential demand in the US alone could fill Carnival’s current and planned future fleet for years to come (this was pre Covid). The one “fact” they reiterated several times was 97% of the US population has never been on a cruise. I don’t know how accurate that number is, but I have heard it from officers on several different ships. There is no doubt Carnival loves the novice cruiser, because they spend significantly more money during a cruise than experienced cruisers. Like any cruise line, Carnival closely tracks how much money every passenger spends on their ships. 

 

7 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

Carnival was fine with sailing Fantasy class ships before Covid, despite claims to the contrary, they were no active plans to ditch them.  The actions to do so was purely a financial one with covid.  I have heard anywhere between 97 and 90+ % of the US has not cruised,  first time cruisers are their sweet spot for many reasons, including thos you hit on.  

The 97% number is one I heard several years ago. While it’s likely to still be in the ballpark, I’d subtract a little just to account for the passengers who were able to cruise. I’d guess 95ish about now.

 

It’s true- new cruisers are a lot more profitable. They’re the ones spending more on room revenue because experienced cruisers know the tricks, they spend more in souvenirs, photos, ship-sponsored shore excursions, transfers, F&B, onboard sales such as bingo, etc. As an added benefit, they don’t know how the product devalued in the past and are more likely to accept the new experience without comparing it to anything.

Edited by xDisconnections
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6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

This is a bit disingenuous.  The entire interior of the SSUS has been stripped out, years ago in Turkey.  None of the machinery works anymore, and hasn't for decades, even before they stripped out the asbestos insulation.  The ship was towed all the way to Turkey for revitalization 28 years ago, and then back again. The only thing Crystal was interested in getting, and would have gotten out of the SSUS was a bare steel hull.  And, the steel used in the SSUS is a much lower strength than what is used in modern ships, so the hull plating is thicker than modern ships (if its less strong, you gotta put more in), which along with the different chemical composition of the steel has allowed the hull to last this long.

 

The ship has nevertheless NOT been scrapped and I don't think the hull number would not have changed under Crystal. I am a little amused when it is showcased as pride of a nation (I guess Pride of America was already taken). But the ship was fast.

 

https://www.ssusc.org/

 

 

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Just now, xDisconnections said:

 

 As an added benefit, they don’t know how the product devalued in the past and are more likely to accept the new experience without comparing it to anything.

 

Devalue is in the eye of the beholder. New cruisers wouldn't miss what they never saw, and could appreciate more some of the new features and venues added. Old cruisers are biased like that.

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1 hour ago, BlerkOne said:

 

The ship has nevertheless NOT been scrapped and I don't think the hull number would not have changed under Crystal. I am a little amused when it is showcased as pride of a nation (I guess Pride of America was already taken). But the ship was fast.

 

https://www.ssusc.org/

 

 

Yes, but it would not be "brought out of cold layup for service", it would be completely rebuilt.  Yes, the hull number would remain the same, because the only advantage to having the hull is that it is a US built ship, and therefore PVSA compliant.  This is why NCL bought it in the first place, to keep other lines from getting anything that could be PVSA compliant and compete with their Hawaiian operations.  Then Lim Kok Thay, owner of Genting Group (at the time the owners of NCL, Crystal, and Star cruise lines) fell in love with the idea of taking the epitome of the ocean liners and returning it to operation.  NCL proceeded to lose so much money on its US flag operations, that 2 ships left the US flag fleet, Genting sold control of NCL to Apollo Management, and the SSUS was going to scrap.  The SSUS conservancy bought it from NCL.  Then, Lim Tok Thay, this time through Crystal cruises showed interest in the ship, but a feasibility study showed that the cost to meet modern SOLAS requirements would be greater than a new ship, and the project was dropped.

 

There is no way that any of Carnival's ships cold be laid up for 50 years (not even 20) and survive to return to service without an investment of nearly the cost of a replacement ship.  As I say, modern steels are less corrosion resistant than that used in the SSUS, which is why steel is always being tested for thickness after a ship reaches 15 years of age, and why maintenance costs rise dramatically for ships at this age.

 

At the time she was operating, the SSUS was the pinnacle of technology, and the queen of ocean liners, owning the Blue Riband trophy.  Sadly, one of the reasons NCL never got the project off the ground was that the Conservancy sued to have NCL keep the original power plant (steam turbine), which was what makes the ship historically significant.  Of course, no one can economically operate a steam ship (with 120,000 hp), so this caused the project to end.  The conservancy hopes to preserve the power plant, but it is completely rusted in place, and I doubt it would be feasible to even clean it up enough for a static museum display.

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As chengkp75 says, United States is gutted to the bare steel internally, not simply laid up ready to be reactivated.

These photos are from a visit aboard about 12 or so years ago.

The only thing remaining of the cabins are the outlines on the deck and the holes for plumbing.

C82618C8-5CFF-4E65-85E0-1E2C137939C3.jpeg

872F5D37-50EE-4EA2-84AE-AA0B33ED5775.jpeg

6039D24E-C5C1-49D4-861C-E3A5720E58F4.jpeg

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26 minutes ago, foodsvcmgr said:

As chengkp75 says, United States is gutted to the bare steel internally, not simply laid up ready to be reactivated.

These photos are from a visit aboard about 12 or so years ago.

The only thing remaining of the cabins are the outlines on the deck and the holes for plumbing.

C82618C8-5CFF-4E65-85E0-1E2C137939C3.jpeg

872F5D37-50EE-4EA2-84AE-AA0B33ED5775.jpeg

6039D24E-C5C1-49D4-861C-E3A5720E58F4.jpeg

Understand why it could ever happen, but ouch looking at it hursts.  She could have had a much better fate.

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On 7/29/2020 at 2:32 PM, cruisingator2 said:


I sometimes chuckle when I read comments calling a ten year old ship “old”. The Caribe was 39 years old when we cruised on this ship. Another of my favorites was the Seabreeze from Dolphin Cruise Line. This ship was 36 years old when we cruised in 1993. Seven nights to the eastern Caribbean. A true beauty.

7E7F0EE2-2E26-4BAE-85EE-CEC40B7FFE00.jpeg

My aunt worked on the Sea Breeze for many years.  She loved her.  I was fortunate to sail on her several times.  A great ship!

 

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