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Expect more Cancellations for rest of the year.


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38 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Yes, you are someone who always excuses discrimination based on age because it is "rational".

 

And once upon a time it was considered rational to discriminate against women in hiring because men had to support a family while women had husbands to do that.

 

And I suppose all segregation laws were somehow rationalized. I know in 1963, I was told by a teenager from Jackson, Mississippi that the Blacks got the better schools so they would not complain. (I did not believe him, but that was the rationale.

 

As for eye tests, my state requires them of everyone for driver's license; makes more sense to me than discriminating by age.

 

And you mentioned the military. Until recently several jobs were denied to women, and I'm sure they had rational reasons for that, but somehow they became no longer rational. And the Commander In Chief is 73 years old. I wonder what the average age is of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I would bet it is not young.

That's very nice but  you're dodging the points I made.  It doesn't matter what your state requires for eye tests.  What matters is the fact that multiple states do require eye tests past a certain age.  You also failed to address whether a state can deny a drivers license for those under a certain age.  (BTW, are you aware that all states/jurisdictions forbid the sale of liquor to those under a certain age.) Those laws have been challenged and declared not to be discrimination.

 

But, more to the point, if you were to 'google' "justifying discrimination" you would find many articles similar to this one: 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/justifying-discrimination/#:~:text=The Equality Actsays discrimination can,if discrimination can be justified.

 

I'll excerpt a few paragraphs:

 

"The law which says you mustn’t be discriminated against is called the Equality Act 2010. Discrimination which is against the Equality Act is unlawful. This means you can take action in the civil courts."

"But sometimes people are allowed to discriminate against you if they have a good enough reason for doing so. They would need to be able to prove this in court, if necessary. This is known in legal terms as objective justification. If discrimination is justified, it doesn’t count as unlawful discrimination under the Equality Act."

"The Equality Actsays discrimination can be justified if the person who's discriminating against you can show it’s a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. If necessary, it's the courts which will decide if discrimination can be justified."

"A legitimate aim is the reason behind the discrimination. This reason must not be discriminatory in itself and it must be a genuine or real reason."

"Here are examples of legitimate aims:"

  • "the health, safety and welfare of individuals"
  • "running an efficient service"
  • "requirements of a business"
  • "desire to make profit."

Clearly the cruise lines could make a reasonable argument that these policies are justified on the basis of "the health, safety, and welfare of individuals".  Whether the courts would decide for the lines is another matter but there is certainly reason to believe they could.

 

You may not like the law.  You may prefer that the law was something that it isn't.  But, the law isn't on your side.

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5 minutes ago, Eli_6 said:

1) No, the BAKER won the case. It went all the way up to SCOTUS and SCOTUS ruled AGAINST the gay couple. The case is Masterpiece Cakeshop vs Colorado Civil Rights Commission.

 

2)  The law that was allegedly violated was a Colorado state law. Colorado state law would unequivocally not apply to any cruise ships. It would have to be a federal law. Even then, not all federal law would apply. For example, we know US labor laws don't apply to them. That's why their crew is predominately from foreign countries and they can violate the FLSA both with respect to pay and overtime.  

 

3) There are no federal laws that I am aware of that prohibit discrimination on the basis of age that would apply to Carnival. There are numerous laws that deal with racial discrimination, disability discrimination, etc. (e.g. the ADA) that place restrictions on places open to the public that do not cover age.   

 

4) Overweight people and several other groups you mentioned are not protected classes at all. You can't just sue for discrimination. That's not a cause of action unless there is a law that protects a class of people. 

 

Hmmm....I guess I stopped following the bakery case after the original ruling.  I think there was one here too (will check it tomorrow).

 

However, this is 2020. It seems it's ok to sue for discrimination about things that happened a few hundred years ago.  

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There is a mandatory retirement age for airline pilots and also it is illegal to discriminate against someone appying for a loan based on age. Yep, you can be 90 and get a 30 year mortgage if you otherwise qualify.

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12 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

That's very nice but  you're dodging the points I made.  It doesn't matter what your state requires for eye tests.  What matters is the fact that multiple states do require eye tests past a certain age.  You also failed to address whether a state can deny a drivers license for those under a certain age.  (BTW, are you aware that all states/jurisdictions forbid the sale of liquor to those under a certain age.) Those laws have been challenged and declared not to be discrimination.

 

But, more to the point, if you were to 'google' "justifying discrimination" you would find many articles similar to this one: 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/justifying-discrimination/#:~:text=The Equality Actsays discrimination can,if discrimination can be justified.

 

I'll excerpt a few paragraphs:

 

"The law which says you mustn’t be discriminated against is called the Equality Act 2010. Discrimination which is against the Equality Act is unlawful. This means you can take action in the civil courts."

"But sometimes people are allowed to discriminate against you if they have a good enough reason for doing so. They would need to be able to prove this in court, if necessary. This is known in legal terms as objective justification. If discrimination is justified, it doesn’t count as unlawful discrimination under the Equality Act."

"The Equality Actsays discrimination can be justified if the person who's discriminating against you can show it’s a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. If necessary, it's the courts which will decide if discrimination can be justified."

"A legitimate aim is the reason behind the discrimination. This reason must not be discriminatory in itself and it must be a genuine or real reason."

"Here are examples of legitimate aims:"

  • "the health, safety and welfare of individuals"
  • "running an efficient service"
  • "requirements of a business"
  • "desire to make profit."

Clearly the cruise lines could make a reasonable argument that these policies are justified on the basis of "the health, safety, and welfare of individuals".  Whether the courts would decide for the lines is another matter but there is certainly reason to believe they could.

 

You may not like the law.  You may prefer that the law was something that it isn't.  But, the law isn't on your side.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

You did not address what I answered about the military.

 

As for eye tests, I have no idea why other states do not do as mine does. I needed glasses starting in 3rd grade while DW did not until into her 40s. It's not rational to make it only for senior citizens.

 

And are you really equating not allowing 12 year olds to drink and/or drive with denying services to senior citizens? You can't be serious!

 

It's like my example of the teenager from Mississippi in 1963 justifying segregated schools as it is for their own good. Or the justification keeping women out of higher paying jobs because it was to protect the fairer sex.

 

Repeating we're just going to keep disagreeing; neither is ever going to convince the other, but at least we have had a debate that might be heated at times but never resorted to name calling.

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2 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

If there is such a thing as age discrimination, cruise lines still are subject to most US laws. And Europe doesn't have ADA.

Cruiselines who want to operate out of US they have to follow ADA

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We have two cabins on the Panorama for the beginning of October.  Yes, I am sure it will be cancelled, but when?  One cabin was a rebooking with OBC, etc.  We have cruise with NCL for beginning of November, where final payment is coming soon, and I am sure we will just cancel before final payment under their peace of mind offering.  The Carnival cruise is completely paid for.  We will probably rebook for next summer or fall. Anyone have a guess on when they will finally say we done for the year folks? 

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52 minutes ago, Derbie said:

 Anyone have a guess on when they will finally say we done for the year folks? 

 

I think you will see them do it a little at a time.  There's still five months left in this year and I don't think they will cancel that far ahead.  They are probably waiting to see how the ships that have already started sailing do before they make any decisions.

 

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BUT, we are not in Germany, and cruise lines (unless they change the cruise rules in the USA) must stop in one other country.  AIDA I floating around from Germany to Germany with no port stops. 

 

I have two cruises B2B, one has been changed from June and we added it on the October cruise.  The CDC has requested from the cruise lines, and the passengers,  answers to 29 questions which are required by 9/21/2020.  Once they get the responses, it will take more than 30 days to process.  There also was supposed to be a big meeting with the cruise industry yesterday, so I am thinking we can all look at AIDA on their cruises, but unless we meet CDC guidelines out of this country, we aren't going to be cruising this year.  We even moved our January '21 cruise to December '21.   am thinking the announcement will be made mid August.  In the end of the day, on a Thursday. 

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2 hours ago, May1cruiser said:

The German cruises start this Saturday on Aida. These will be a part of the test to see what does/does not work. 

And while the entire crew was confined to quarters after boarding, two crew members tested positive for COVID-19.  They have been removed, and the entire crew is going to be tested again (third time).  This is going to be an interesting experiment...

 

My guess (and it is only a guess) is that CCL will wait until mid-August before announcing that the October cruises are cancelled - that is 6 weeks prior, which is probably how long they need to get those few ships up and running.  Maybe they'll cancel November at the same time, but I don't think they will cancel through the end of the year.

 

:shrug:

Edited by ProgRockCruiser
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They're bleeding money.  They will wait as long as they can.  While watching what happens in Europe is interesting, the U,.S,. is so far from that level of containment, or even agreement on how to approach the disease, we will at the most be spectators for quite a while.

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From a PR perspective, they are going to wait a while.  They just announced the retirement and storage of 4 ships with an accompanying round of cancellations and booking transfers.  A delay will also allow the CSRs a chance to get caught up prior to a new round of "where's my FCC" or "where's my refund" calls.  My personal crystal ball 😉 tells me that the earliest they will be cruising is December, so I do expect to see two additional rounds of cancellations.

Edited by Schoifmom
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Norweign just announced they have suspended through the end of October now. 

 

We have an October 15th booked (our rescheduled cruise that got canceled in March). We were about to cancel due to some of the group going with us concerned about work when returning. Our final payment date is Saturday. Now I am wanting to wait so we don't loose 2/3's of our refund and OBC. But I am hoping that it comes sooner than later. 

 

But the sad part is that when we booked, we were given $500 obc + $300obc for moving the balance from our prior cruise to this one. Now I am sad that the $500 will be gone if they cancel! 

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NCL has officially announced cruises cancelled through October 31st. 
 

Saw a FB post from a cruise consultant who I have cruised with before. 
 

Expect others to follow!

Edited by beerman2
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7 hours ago, Derbie said:

We have two cabins on the Panorama for the beginning of October.  Yes, I am sure it will be cancelled, but when?  One cabin was a rebooking with OBC, etc.  We have cruise with NCL for beginning of November, where final payment is coming soon, and I am sure we will just cancel before final payment under their peace of mind offering.  The Carnival cruise is completely paid for.  We will probably rebook for next summer or fall. Anyone have a guess on when they will finally say we done for the year folks? 

I expect that you will hear something by the end of business this week. (7/31/2020)

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45 minutes ago, beerman2 said:

NCL has officially announced cruises cancelled through October 31st. 
 

Saw a FB post from a cruise consultant who I have cruised with before. 
 

Expect others to follow!

I would imagine most will cancel on a quarter by quarter basis.

More important then keeping the people who cruise up to date are the investors. The investors have to know what the quarterly outlook is going to be and what the financial plan is.

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1 hour ago, laumicmah said:

I agree with @marshhawk and say mid August will be the next announcement. Also agree that cruising will not happen this year and maybe not even part of next year.


I agree that cruising is not going to happen until next year and it likely won’t be the early part of the year. I understand why cruise lines are continuing to book cruises that even they know are not likely to happen, because they need any kind of income they can get to offset costs they still have to pay. However, I will not book any more cruises until cruising resumes in the states. 

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We were scheduled to be on the Fantasy for those two weeks in October.  Got 7 emails from CCL telling me the ship was changed to the Sensation, and that we would be booked in comparable cabins.  We didn't need to call.   But we will be assigned our cabins by 8/23 and be notified at that time.

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