CDC Requests Input on Resumption of cruises and the public can participate

[Iamcruzin]

50 minutes ago, bigrednole said:

So, what you are saying is that the only way for CV19 to spread is due to cruise ships. Very interesting that every doctor and CDC is telling everyone to wear face masks in the US, 40% of businesses are still shutdown, and the numbers are still skyrocketing all while cruise ships have been banned from ports since early March.

 

Thank you, I got it now. We just need to let the CDC and the rest of the country be aware of this so we can open everything, stop wearing masks, and go back to normal living. I agree, lets sink all these ships because they are the reason for the spread of CV19. 

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.  What I'm saying is that cruise lines can not keep passengers safe if stuck at sea because a local port won't allow them to dock and they don't have the medical facilities to help those who need intensive care especially if they are stranded at sea for an extensive period of time. If you don't get it at this stage of the game with C19 spreading daily through the states that didn't follow protocol set by the CDC, than there is no hope for you.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Iamcruzin

[Iamcruzin]

6 hours ago, seaman11 said:

what about the airlines? they seem to be operating with impunity. 

The airlines provide a necessary transportation service. The cruise lines provide a vacation experience that is not a necessity.  With all of the travel bans and self quarantines the airlines are hurting. Even the MTA which is the only show in town in terms of commuting is having financial difficulties with the lack of commuters who are working remotely.

[mek]

21 hours ago, rimmit said:

Thanks for the article.  Well written and informative, but I in all honesty I didn’t realize this was news.  Maybe I just haven’t been paying attention.   
 

Since the beginning of this and especially after two months of lockdown, I thought the assumption was that this would become an endemic disease.  While vaccination will help,  the obvious hesitation from a large portion of the public in getting a vaccine was never going to allow us to eliminate this disease like small pox.  I didn’t think the end goal at this point was elimination as it just isn’t feasible given the widespread nature and the level of anti vaccination  sentiment.

 

The assumption was that we would eventually hit a steady state of deaths much like flu, heart disease, etc.

That has been my understanding also - that C19 will become endemic.  I couldn't open the article because it requires a subscription so not sure if it is mentioned that at some point the virus will probably become weaker in order to survive and that is how it becomes endemic - just as happened with the 1918 pandemic.

Edited July 28, 2020 by mek

[Milwaukee Eight]

2 hours ago, bigrednole said:

So, what you are saying is that the only way for CV19 to spread is due to cruise ships.

Airlines were mentioned. Being on a plane for a short time on average, doesn’t have an outbreak onboard like a cruise ship does. I agree, people may get infected on an airplane but people are off quickly. An outbreak on a cruise ship is nothing but trouble and the cruise lines have yet to address what they do with people who become sick while onboard. 
 

M8

[cltnccruisers]

10 hours ago, Iamcruzin said:

I don't understand that either. We have to get a flu shot every year and sometimes they don't work. My wife has had the flu after being vaccinated.  

The first time I got a flu shot was in 1974 in the Army.  Most of the platoon went down with the flu including me.  I expect, though, that proof of vaccination requirements may be the only way the no-sail order is lifted.

[cltnccruisers]

59 minutes ago, mek said:

That has been my understanding also - that C19 will become endemic.  I couldn't open the article because it requires a subscription so not sure if it is mentioned that at some point the virus will probably become weaker in order to survive and that is how it becomes endemic - just as happened with the 1918 pandemic.

Eventually some degree of herd immunity may come about, mitigating the risk somewhat.  But that can take generations.

[cured]

16 hours ago, seaman11 said:

Why do so many feel a false sense of security with a vaccine, on a virus that could have thousands if not millions of different strands? 

It is not the flu. It does not have many different strains like Influenza A and Influenza B.

 

It is SARS-CoV-2

 

While there have been multiple mutations discovered, most of the mutations will not affect its ability to react to a vaccine. Think viruses like Chicken Pox, Measles, Polio, all viruses that can be controlled by a vaccine. At least as I have been assured by close relatives working on one of the vaccines.

 

Flu shots may seem like they don't work all the time but that is mainly due to the fact that there are many different strains of influenza. The pharma companies have to decide which strains to include in the flu shot a year in advance in order to be able to manufacture enough for the next flu season.  Sometimes they get it wrong and a strain appears that is not in the vaccine.  

 

But again, SARS-CoV-2 is NOT an influenza, it is a SARS virus.

Edited July 28, 2020 by cured

[cltnccruisers]

4 minutes ago, cured said:

It is not the flu. It does not have many different strains like Influenza A and Influenza B.

 

It is SARS-CoV-2

 

While there have been multiple mutations discovered, most of the mutations will not affect its ability to react to a vaccine. Think viruses like Chicken Pox, Measles, Polio, all viruses that can be controlled by a vaccine.

Our daughter probably had this back in late December.  Her doctor told her it was a really, really, really bad flu.  Based on the data at the time that seemed reasonable.  This morning I saw a couple of news stories saying that COVID had at least 6 different sets of symptoms that might be experienced.  3 of them used the term 'flu-like'.  The experts are all over the map on this.  It's impossible to know what to believe.

[cured]

8 minutes ago, cltnccruisers said:

Our daughter probably had this back in late December.  Her doctor told her it was a really, really, really bad flu.  Based on the data at the time that seemed reasonable.  This morning I saw a couple of news stories saying that COVID had at least 6 different sets of symptoms that might be experienced.  3 of them used the term 'flu-like'.  The experts are all over the map on this.  It's impossible to know what to believe.

Since the virus was probably not in the US in December (first diagnosis in US was 1/20/2020,) her doctor is most likely correct.

 

Covid does have a range of symptoms, more and more being discovered as the researchers learn more about the disease.  It may look like they are all over the map, but because it is a novel virus, they are on a steep learning curve. For instance, in the beginning, it was thought to just be a respiratory virus. Then autopsies started showing blood clots throughout the body, thus now the use of blood thinners in hospitals. Research now shows it is not just a respiratory virus, but that it attacks multiple organs such as the heart, kidneys, and liver.  

 

It does usually start out respiratory with a cough and flu-like symptoms. But even now, some asymptomatic people are showing heart damage and other unseen organ damage.  But flu like is not the flu.

[FOXTROT]

9 hours ago, seaman11 said:

what about the airlines? they seem to be operating with impunity. 

The thing with an airline, it is almost impossible for someone to say they got sick on that flight. With the cruise line we can say we got sick on that ship along with at least 200 other people. Can also say that 4 passengers had died from Covid. We can testify that the Captain lied to us twice a day, that no one was sick. 

[cltnccruisers]

22 minutes ago, cured said:

Since the virus was probably not in the US in December (first diagnosis in US was 1/20/2020,) her doctor is most likely correct.

 

Covid does have a range of symptoms, more and more being discovered as the researchers learn more about the disease.  It may look like they are all over the map, but because it is a novel virus, they are on a steep learning curve. For instance, in the beginning, it was thought to just be a respiratory virus. Then autopsies started showing blood clots throughout the body, thus now the use of blood thinners in hospitals. Research now shows it is not just a respiratory virus, but that it attacks multiple organs such as the heart, kidneys, and liver.  

 

It does usually start out respiratory with a cough and flu-like symptoms. But even now, some asymptomatic people are showing heart damage and other unseen organ damage.  But flu like is not the flu.

Both of our daughters are GMs in retail.  Older daughter was sent home by her DM last week with a few symptoms.  She tested negative.  Our December daughter has been fine working in the same environment.  In fact, she is being used to fill in for other GMs who are sick.  I suggested she see if she can get the anti-body test which may show if her December incident was COVID.  Both her doctor and mine have said the jury is still out on just when it arrived here.  Not that it makes that much difference at this point.

Edited July 28, 2020 by cltnccruisers
poor sentence structure

[Milwaukee Eight]

1 minute ago, cltnccruisers said:

Both of our daughters are GMs in retail.  Older daughter was sent home by her DM last week with a few symptoms.  She tested negative.  Our December daughter has been fine working in the same environment.  In fact, she is being used to fill in for other GMs who are sick.  I suggested she see if she can get the anti-body test which may show if her December incident was COVID.  Both her doctor and mine have the jury is still out on just when it arrived here.  Not that it makes that much difference at this point.

My soon to be 87 yo Mom says she had Covin (her words) in early December. She has been tested now 4 times negative. She finally got the antibody test, also negative. She lives in a small town up until just recently, had no positive cases. 
 

I believe she was hoping she had it so she could get out of “jail” (her words).  No proof one can or cannot get infected again. 
 

M8

[sandebeach]

Royal Caribbean has hired a Chief Medical Officer to work on medical policies and work with the Healthy Sail Panel. He is a MD with a MPH. I think this is a great start to getting the medical questions addressed for the cruise ships. 

[mek]

22 minutes ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

My soon to be 87 yo Mom says she had Covin (her words) in early December. She has been tested now 4 times negative. She finally got the antibody test, also negative. She lives in a small town up until just recently, had no positive cases. 
 

I believe she was hoping she had it so she could get out of “jail” (her words).  No proof one can or cannot get infected again. 
 

M8

I believe if people were being reinfected the press would be all over that - we would know if it was happening and so far he only news of that nature was way back when all of this started and there was a group of people, I believe in S Korea, who possibly were reinfected, but since then it has pretty much been accepted that they had not fully recovered and they had false negatives before later being testing positive. 

[cltnccruisers]

1 hour ago, cured said:

Since the virus was probably not in the US in December (first diagnosis in US was 1/20/2020,) her doctor is most likely correct.

 

Covid does have a range of symptoms, more and more being discovered as the researchers learn more about the disease.  It may look like they are all over the map, but because it is a novel virus, they are on a steep learning curve. For instance, in the beginning, it was thought to just be a respiratory virus. Then autopsies started showing blood clots throughout the body, thus now the use of blood thinners in hospitals. Research now shows it is not just a respiratory virus, but that it attacks multiple organs such as the heart, kidneys, and liver.  

 

It does usually start out respiratory with a cough and flu-like symptoms. But even now, some asymptomatic people are showing heart damage and other unseen organ damage.  But flu like is not the flu.

You've probably seen this or something similar, but it's why I referenced 'flu like'.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/covid-19-symptom-clusters-223755338.html

 

[bigrednole]

4 hours ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

Airlines were mentioned. Being on a plane for a short time on average, doesn’t have an outbreak onboard like a cruise ship does. I agree, people may get infected on an airplane but people are off quickly. An outbreak on a cruise ship is nothing but trouble and the cruise lines have yet to address what they do with people who become sick while onboard. 
 

M8

Not true at all. If you contract Lets see all of the places you can contract in while air traveling. 

#1 Going through the ticket line or the baggage handler where you get dropped off

#2 Walking in the airport terminal

#3 Waiting in line for TSA

#4 Putting all your stuff in the TSA baskets to be scanned

#5 Being scanned and felt over by TSA and being close to a TSA agent (along with EVERY person they have come in contact with)

#6 Collecting your stuff from the TSA bins

#7 All of the contaminants from the previous people using and all of the people that rub their hands over it unknowingly

#8 Sitting there where everyone before you has put their shoes back on and their grubby hands rubbing all over them

 

I could go on with a list of 100 more places you can contract it by going to the airport and flying. If you think airlines are free from massive outbreaks, how do you think it got everywhere in the US? Cruise ships got screwed over because no one would allow them to return. Yes, there may have been 4-5 cases. By not allowing those passengers off, more contracted it. The incubation period before symptoms is up to 2 weeks. You could be infected before your trip, contaminate everyone, and not show a sign until after your trip. Then, you would blame the cruise ship.

[Milwaukee Eight]

2 minutes ago, bigrednole said:

Not true at all. If you contract Lets see all of the places you can contract in while air traveling. 

#1 Going through the ticket line or the baggage handler where you get dropped off

#2 Walking in the airport terminal

#3 Waiting in line for TSA

#4 Putting all your stuff in the TSA baskets to be scanned

#5 Being scanned and felt over by TSA and being close to a TSA agent (along with EVERY person they have come in contact with)

#6 Collecting your stuff from the TSA bins

#7 All of the contaminants from the previous people using and all of the people that rub their hands over it unknowingly

#8 Sitting there where everyone before you has put their shoes back on and their grubby hands rubbing all over them

 

I could go on with a list of 100 more places you can contract it by going to the airport and flying. If you think airlines are free from massive outbreaks, how do you think it got everywhere in the US? Cruise ships got screwed over because no one would allow them to return. Yes, there may have been 4-5 cases. By not allowing those passengers off, more contracted it. The incubation period before symptoms is up to 2 weeks. You could be infected before your trip, contaminate everyone, and not show a sign until after your trip. Then, you would blame the cruise ship.

I don’t disagree but your not on there for a week or more and in the US, there are medical facilities nearby to treat you. On a cruise ship, you have none. The CDC wants to know how cruise ships plan to handle cases of COVID19 onboard, treatment procedures, quarantine, and most of all, if it were to spread on a cruise ship with 8000 people they don’t want the infected dumped off to a US Port. How many cruise ships have ventilators, space, and medical staff to handle an outbreak. 
 

Being confined on an airplane for a few hours or more is not the same as on a cruise ship. 
 

 

M8

[Biker19]

Like with any other issue, the haters seem to have come out of the woodwork:

 

Royal Caribbean International President & CEO Michael Bayley is outraged, saying an unnamed group is sabotaging the request for public comments by the Centers For Disease Control on how to restart cruising.

 

Writing on social media, Bayley said a small anti-cruise group is, in effect, skewing the results by overloading the CDC website with negative comments.

 

 

"On Monday the 21st (of September), the CDC closes the request for public comment regarding healthy return to cruising. There have been over 3,000 comments, many of which have been very constructive and it has been incredible to hear from you all,” he wrote. “Recently, a small anti-cruise group has lobbied their supporters to comment on cruise beyond the CDC remit. If you have a passion for cruising and the wonderful memories you have created sailing the oceans of the world, please visit and comment today."

 

He did not mention the group by name, but Royal Caribbean blog found one such post by a member of the group ‘Stand.Earth.’ The post urged readers to lobby the CDC to extend the no-sail order beyond October, although a pair of senators recently introduced a bill to try to safely bring cruising back to the U.S.

 

According to the group’s website, there are detailed instructions for members to submit anti-cruise messages to the CDC before the comment period expires. The group asks its members to point out air pollution, the type of fuel cruise ships use, and "multiple reports" of health issues on ships that have resumed cruises.

 

At the time of this post, a search of the CDC's website returned at least 63 submissions that included the Stand.Earth URL referenced in the submission.

[Coralc]

Oh. That's weird. 

[chengkp75]

Now that I think a little more, I realize that the request for information is a requirement before rule/regulation changes are made.

[Biker19]

20 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Now that I think a little more, I realize that the request for information is a requirement before rule/regulation changes are made.

I don't recall that being the case when the initial No Sail Order was made up.

[A&L_Ont]

35 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Now that I think a little more, I realize that the request for information is a requirement before rule/regulation changes are made.

That would make sense to me. I checked out the “haters” web page. It looks like a cult to me. 😉😂

[d9704011]

1 hour ago, Biker19 said:

I don't recall that being the case when the initial No Sail Order was made up.

That’s because it wasn’t the case.  Here is an excerpt from the No Sail Order:

 

This Order is not a rule within the meaning of the Administrative Procedure Act (“APA”), but rather an emergency action taken under the existing authority of 42 CFR §§ 70.2, 71.31(b), and 71.32(b). In the event that this Order qualifies as a rule under the APA, notice and comment and a delay in effective date are not required because there is good cause to dispense with prior public notice and the opportunity to comment on this Order.31

[livingonthebeach]

The environmental group behind this wants the CDC to extend the no-sail order until the pandemic is over which would not only choke the cruise lines but all the businesses that depend on the cruise lines for survival.  The deadline for comments is tomorrow, September 21st.  I believe the cruise lines are submitting their proposed restart plans to the CDC by Monday as well.  

[sandebeach]

I just submitted my comment. I referenced the success of MSC protocols for European cruises and recommended that CDC work with cruise lines to quickly implement effective protocols to restart the cruise industry. Interesting to read some of the other comments.