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5 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Crew members are people! And they can catch and spread Covid 19.

Had that experience in 2012 on a 14 day sailing, many sick crew members blaming the passengers for everyone being sick and that was not the case. The ship was sick by the time we got on it, we just got sicker and so did the ship. 

If the ships are going to sail again nobody on or off without 2 clean tests. 

Later Todd in West Virginia and we still don't want you here.😉

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22 hours ago, suzyed said:

We didn't chance going to the airport, since they told us all day long we need at least 3 hours to get to the airport to catch our flights and then called us to "go" an hour and a half before our flight was due to leave. Nope! Not gonna do it!  We stayed on until the end on our "cruise to nowhere"!

 

Thank you for writing this. I think I met your wife at the bar in the atrium on the March 19th mess we all went through. We did not know until we got on the plane at 1:30am on the 20th that Princess had left the port and we were just there at the airport...A fellow passenger told us as we boarded the plane that Princess had left us all there with no way to get back home but by plane. Thank goodness the last couple of planes left before the airport closed to international travel. Still waiting for our $7000 back from Princess for this trip. Hope you have faired better.

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21 minutes ago, Shaver John said:

Thank you for writing this. I think I met your wife at the bar in the atrium on the March 19th mess we all went through. We did not know until we got on the plane at 1:30am on the 20th that Princess had left the port and we were just there at the airport...A fellow passenger told us as we boarded the plane that Princess had left us all there with no way to get back home but by plane. Thank goodness the last couple of planes left before the airport closed to international travel. Still waiting for our $7000 back from Princess for this trip. Hope you have faired better.

That's a nightmare.😲

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FYI.. The cruise line in Norway, Hurtigruten, has the Covid 19 confirmed on one of its ships. Questions are being raised as to the procedures used for the crew that was on the ship & what was done to make sure that the crew was safe. Hopefully this will not effect other cruise lines. 
 

Tom

Edited by trbarton
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12 minutes ago, trbarton said:

FYI.. The cruise line in Norway, Hurtigruten, has the Covid 19 confirmed on one of its ships. Questions are being raised as to the procedures used for the crew that was on the ship & what was done to make sure that the crew was safe. Hopefully this will not effect other cruise lines. 
 

Tom

It will certainly impact other cruise lines.  Hurtigruten is a well run cruise line which has now lost the trust of the Norwegian government and people.  Add to that issues with positive test on both Aida and TUI and Europe is looking at the major failure of most start-ups.  You can be certain that the CDC is carefully watching and keep in mind that these cruise lines were following pretty strict protocols that were approved by the EU and their own governments.  

 

Trying to restart cruises in South Florida present huge problems...even if the CDC lifts their "no cruise" order.  How do the cruise lines get thousands of crew, from all over the world, to south Florida and ensure they are in good health.  I guess there could be a program to put all the crew members into isolation for at least two weeks, but keep in mind we are talking about thousands of people.   And even if we had a way to ensure that all the crew members were OK, you then have the same problem with many more thousands of passengers.  These passengers must travel to south Florida (which is a COVID hot zone) and get to the ship with zero infections.  How can this be guaranteed when there is currently no test to detect recent exposure?

 

Some have accused me (and others) of being too negative here on CC.  I love cruising and have had 3 cruises (2 on Princess and 1 HAL) cancelled in the last 4 months by the cruise line.  We have another cruise (MSC) booked for December and doubt it will happen.  We have two cruises (HAL and Oceania) booked in 2021 and would not take bets that either will happen.  At this point I would not take a bet on any mass market cruise happening in the next year!

 

I know this is very negative but we have not heard anyone come up with a reasonable plan to resume cruising with the current situation.  If there is a 100% safe/effective vaccine in the next few months which can somehow be dispensed to billion we are all home free.  What is more likely is that if (a big if) there is a vaccine it will have limited efficacy (perhaps 50%) and will involve multiple shots assuming you can find the vaccine and a place that is dispensing.    The Europeans are desperately trying to resume cruising without a vaccine and without a reliable last minute COVID test.  So far they are failing!  I seriously doubt that the CDC is going to allow a similar situation in the USA.  I believe it is back to the drawing boards for the cruise industry.

 

Hank

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@Hlitner

 

If there is a 100% safe/effective vaccine in the next few months which can somehow be dispensed to billion we are all home free.  What is more likely is that if (a big if) there is a vaccine it will have limited efficacy (perhaps 50%) and will involve multiple shots assuming you can find the vaccine and a place that is dispensing.    

 

 

The headline in the NZHerald today says:-

"WHO: We may never develop a vaccine".

 

The first paragraph says; "The World Health Organisation has warned researchers may never manage to develop a vaccine that works - even if they do it could provide only limited protection."

 

If that is the case then sell your cruise lines' shares NOW!!  Be prepared never to cruise again.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, casofilia said:

@Hlitner

 

If there is a 100% safe/effective vaccine in the next few months which can somehow be dispensed to billion we are all home free.  What is more likely is that if (a big if) there is a vaccine it will have limited efficacy (perhaps 50%) and will involve multiple shots assuming you can find the vaccine and a place that is dispensing.    

 

 

The headline in the NZHerald today says:-

"WHO: We may never develop a vaccine".

 

The first paragraph says; "The World Health Organisation has warned researchers may never manage to develop a vaccine that works - even if they do it could provide only limited protection."

 

If that is the case then sell your cruise lines' shares NOW!!  Be prepared never to cruise again.

 

 

No way, Jose. I'm going cruising again and again and again. Jeez your trying to kill us, chill homey, they'll figure it out.

 

Dying for a Skyfall martini from Crooners or Adagio on the Emerald Princess, a couple of them. 

 

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20 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

The Europeans are desperately trying to resume cruising without a vaccine and without a reliable last minute COVID test.

I doubt it is “desperation”.  I think it was just a reasonable attempt, keeping in mind that there won’t be   100% security- there never has been.

 

As for the crews, they could be quarantined for two weeks before the cruise.  There won’t be guaranteed safety and there never was.  The vulnerable populations may need to wait longer.

Edited by SetAnOpenCourse
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2 minutes ago, SetAnOpenCourse said:

I doubt it is “desperation”.  I think it was just a reasonable attempt, keeping in mind that there won’t be   100% security- there never has been.

 

As for the crews, they could be quarantined for two weeks before the cruise.  There won’t be guaranteed safety and there never was.  The vulnerable will need to wait longer.

I think what has happened in Europe (especially in Norway) shows that we need something close to 100% safety of the CDC is not going to allow any cruising from USA ports.  If you have not read the CDC Questions (for which they are seeking public comment by late September) you might find it interesting reading.  Those questions make it pretty clear where the CDC thinking is going.  The problem (from my point of view) is that nobody has come up with an acceptable plan what to do if there is even a single case of COVID on a cruise.  Lacking such an answer (with the necessary arrangements) there can be no cruising from North America.  This is not an area where you can have compromise.  Norway did try to make it work and now they have jeopardized most of the population of their country because of a couple of cruises.

 

Hank

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30 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

 

I know this is very negative but we have not heard anyone come up with a reasonable plan to resume cruising with the current situation.  If there is a 100% safe/effective vaccine in the next few months which can somehow be dispensed to billion we are all home free.  What is more likely is that if (a big if) there is a vaccine it will have limited efficacy (perhaps 50%) and will involve multiple shots assuming you can find the vaccine and a place that is dispensing.    The Europeans are desperately trying to resume cruising without a vaccine and without a reliable last minute COVID test.  So far they are failing!  I seriously doubt that the CDC is going to allow a similar situation in the USA.  I believe it is back to the drawing boards for the cruise industry.

 

Hank

 

I always think your post are well thought out, accurate and no BS.  The Covid-19 deniers just do not want to accept reality.  We all know what happens when you open things up to early in the age of Covid-19.....it does not go well....they are not going to be cruising for a long time and even if they do the fun I am sure will be taken out of it with all of the protocols that need to be followed for passenger safety reasons.  And we all know how Covid-19 deniers love to follow suggested guidelines in helping curtail Covid-19...

Edited by PrincessLuver
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16 minutes ago, PrincessLuver said:

 

I always think your post are well thought out, accurate and no BS.  The Covid-19 deniers just do not want to accept reality.  We all know what happens when you open things up to early in the age of Covid-19.....it does not go well....they are not going to be cruising for a long time and even if they do the fun I am sure will be taken out of it with all of the protocols that need to be followed for passenger safety reasons.  And we all know how Covid-19 deniers love to follow suggested guidelines in helping curtail Covid-19...

I personally have a big issue with what you call the "deniers" and similar issues with those that seem to think that locking down the world is the answer.  My own opinion (not worth much) is that we must learn to live intelligently with COVID!

 

Hank

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@Hlitner

 

My own opinion (not worth much) is that we must learn to live intelligently with COVID!

 

The problem is that there are too many who won't do that!!!   Why do you think that there is still so much community transference.   Look at the photos from round the world how close people remain.

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2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I personally have a big issue with what you call the "deniers" and similar issues with those that seem to think that locking down the world is the answer.  My own opinion (not worth much) is that we must learn to live intelligently with COVID!

 

Hank

Of course some people consider the things we must do to live with COVID (masks, distancing, limiting gathering sizes, limited indoor dining, etc) to be locking down.

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5 hours ago, Shaver John said:

Thank you for writing this. I think I met your wife at the bar in the atrium on the March 19th mess we all went through. We did not know until we got on the plane at 1:30am on the 20th that Princess had left the port and we were just there at the airport...A fellow passenger told us as we boarded the plane that Princess had left us all there with no way to get back home but by plane. Thank goodness the last couple of planes left before the airport closed to international travel. Still waiting for our $7000 back from Princess for this trip. Hope you have faired better.

I guess it was I who you met (Susan).  We had already sent our luggage to the airport earlier that day and were lucky enough to get it back at some point.  When the captain announce at 10PM that their president was "closing" Argentina and that we had to leave the port by midnight...we got really worried and knew that the rest of the cruise was going to, Um, have "problems".  
So many of those who had their flights cancelled or they missed their flights, then came back to the ship. If there was a point in time that I felt Princess made a mistake was when they made the decision NOT to quarantine those folks. They stayed in their cabins that night but that was it. Up until that point we did not have the virus onboard (at least that we knew of).    I said to Chuck...we're going to have a problem in 10-14 days.  12 days later we heard of the first cases of Corona.  Pretty much all downhill from that point. 
I have to concede that Princess took very good care of us when we finally were confined to our cabins on March 31st. and yes, we have finally gotten the FCCs (our choice) and a few other monies from mistakes made on our folio.  
What kind of refund are you waiting for? Airfare? Cruise charges?  
Wishing you good luck with your refund and I hope it comes very soon!
 

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1 hour ago, casofilia said:

@npcl

 

All the things you mention are just a part of a real lockdown.

Yes, but they are part of the things that we need to do without really locking down.  There are some things that just will not be the way they were prior to COVID. That is why in response to Hiltner's comment " My own opinion (not worth much) is that we must learn to live intelligently with COVID!"

 

I responded with a list of things that we need to do to live with COVID without a lock down.  Some people consider masks and social distancing, limited inside dining, limited social gatherings to be locking down.  I consider them to be a fact of life to keep counts down while living with COVID.  

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5 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Trying to restart cruises in South Florida present huge problems...even if the CDC lifts their "no cruise" order.  How do the cruise lines get thousands of crew, from all over the world, to south Florida and ensure they are in good health.  I guess there could be a program to put all the crew members into isolation for at least two weeks, but keep in mind we are talking about thousands of people. 

 

 

Most of the ships are in the area where many of the crew come from. New crew could be brought to the ships before the ships reposition to the embarkation port. Of course the crew will need to be quarantined an appropriate amount of time before getting on the ships.

 

 

5 hours ago, Hlitner said:

 And even if we had a way to ensure that all the crew members were OK, you then have the same problem with many more thousands of passengers.  These passengers must travel to south Florida (which is a COVID hot zone) and get to the ship with zero infections.  How can this be guaranteed when there is currently no test to detect recent exposure?

 

 

 

Definitely a problem no matter which embarkation port is used. Traveling to the port will expose passengers to others who might be carriers. Port employees could be carriers.

 

5 hours ago, Hlitner said:

 

If there is a 100% safe/effective vaccine in the next few months which can somehow be dispensed to billion we are all home free. 

 

 

 

With all the political pressure to have a vaccine available this year, I have no doubt one or more will gain emergency approval from the same folk who gave conditional approval to unproved and faulty virus test kits, to unproved and faulty anti-body tests and to medicines that are ineffective but can cause heart damage.

 

A normal Phase 3 trial takes more than three months and has the participants go about normal daily life. Well, normal daily life does not exists for the participants in the current Phase 3 trials. Many will spend much of the time in their homes, not go to crowded restaurants, movie theaters, religious services, etc. and thus not catching the virus will not prove a vaccine is truly effective even if the numbers for those with the vaccine are slightly better than those with a placebo.

 

A good number of those who have had the virus, with or without symptoms, are learning that there is long term damage to various organs. Will the Phase 3 trials be long enough and thorough enough to make sure that the vaccines do not cause these type of long term damage that the virus can cause?

 

“But other patients are affected without apparent risk factors: A paper this week in JAMA Cardiology found that 78 of 100 people diagnosed with COVID-19 had cardiac abnormalities when their heart was imaged on average 10 weeks later, most often inflammation in heart muscle. Many of the participants in that study were previously healthy, and some even caught the virus while on ski trips, according to the authors.”
 
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5 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I personally have a big issue with what you call the "deniers" and similar issues with those that seem to think that locking down the world is the answer.  My own opinion (not worth much) is that we must learn to live intelligently with COVID!

 

Hank

 

What is one person's idea of living intelligent with SARs-CoV-2 is another's denial and living irresponsible.

 

That is the fundamental problem in the US the Federal and State government lost credibility with the early sacrifices, and even in places like Germany and rest of Europe they are struggling, for some interesting reason the Far East is doing better with the those who can't follow rules/make sacrifices.

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7 hours ago, chipmaster said:

 

What is one person's idea of living intelligent with SARs-CoV-2 is another's denial and living irresponsible.

 

That is the fundamental problem in the US the Federal and State government lost credibility with the early sacrifices, and even in places like Germany and rest of Europe they are struggling, for some interesting reason the Far East is doing better with the those who can't follow rules/make sacrifices.

One of the hallmarks of "living intelligently with COVID" is accepting the fact that you do not have control over other people's actions or governmental decisions.  But you do have control over yourself!  This is called "personal responsibility" which is a term lost to many these days.  But rather then constantly blaming the actions of others one can do their best to work with the existing system and concentrate on the factors that are within your own control.  So for example, if I go to the Supermarket and there is a person who is not wearing a mask I can do my best to social distance from that person.  When we went to the beach we walked until we found a relatively empty area where we could easily social distance.  And when we went in ocean we swam in areas that were not crowded with others.    Another example is restaurants.  If DW and I go out to a restaurant we expect them to meet our own standards (which are tough) regarding social distancing and mask wearing.  If we go to a place that is obviously not up to our standards we simply leave!   No need to make a scene, confront others, etc.  Just leave!  In one such case we later telephoned that restaurant and spoke to the manager explaining that we left his facility because we did not feel safe.  

 

You mention the Far East and although the comparisons are interesting it is nothing within our own control.  If folks simply handled issues within their direct control and did not stress out about everyone else's actions they would quickly find their own stress level is reduced.

 

Hank

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13 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Trying to restart cruises in South Florida present huge problems...even if the CDC lifts their "no cruise" order.  How do the cruise lines get thousands of crew, from all over the world, to south Florida and ensure they are in good health.

quarantine the potential crew in their home countries for 2 weeks - during that time reposition ships as needed to collect crew - remembering that ships are currently "on hold" around the world - even if it takes a couple of months to accomplish this

 

I believe re-crewing is the least of the problems to re-start cruising ...

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5 minutes ago, voljeep said:

quarantine the potential crew in their home countries for 2 weeks - during that time reposition ships as needed to collect crew - remembering that ships are currently "on hold" around the world - even if it takes a couple of months to accomplish this

 

I believe re-crewing is the least of the problems to re-start cruising ...

 

Just trying to convince  the public to begin cruising once again will be a major accomplishment.

From what I see many people here in Florida are afraid to venture out in public without a mask to go shopping, no less be confined on a cruise ship. 😕

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25 minutes ago, voljeep said:

quarantine the potential crew in their home countries for 2 weeks - during that time reposition ships as needed to collect crew - remembering that ships are currently "on hold" around the world - even if it takes a couple of months to accomplish this

 

I believe re-crewing is the least of the problems to re-start cruising ...

Really?  Well it does seem that all of failures in Europe (Aida, Sea Dream, Hurtigruten, and TUI) originated with infected crew members!   Re-crewing means moving lots of folks (more then 1000 persons for most ships) around the world to get them to their ship.  The cruise lines are really wrestling with the crew problem.  MSC has been considering a requirement that the crew would not be permitted to leave the ship during their contract!  Many think that would destroy crew morale and might even make it difficult to recruit crew members.   There are other crew problems in that the crew members often come from parts of the world where they are not technically allowed to travel to the embarkation port.   For example, at one point folks from the Philippines have been banned from traveling to many countries but that Island country is the source of many crew members. 

 

And there is another even bigger problem.  Cruise ships can try to modify policies to make social distancing part of being a passenger.  They are thinking that cutting back on the capacity (of passengers) and passenger cabins do work for social distancing.  But the crew live in much tighter quarters and generally share bathrooms among multiple cabins.  The crew lounges, dining facilities, and work environment do not often allow for social distancing.   If a single crew member gets COVID they could quickly spread it to many other crew members and lots of passengers (depending on the crew members job).

 

Re crewing has another big problem.  Many of the most experienced crew members do not want to go back to work on ships.  Consider that some crew members have been literally imprisoned on ships for months as the cruise lines try to find ways to repatriate them home.  This has not only led to moral issues but has resulted in quite a few crew suicides and other mental health issues.  So, when you say that re-crewing is the "least" of the problems it is actually one of the main problems.  Without a sufficient crew (there are minimum crew requirements for safety) you cannot have any cruise.  We have a good friend who is a Senior Officer for MSC.  He is now home in Portugal but is reluctant to go back to work until he feels safe on a ship.  And he is not alone.

 

And finally, for cruises embarking out of US ports the crew issue is also a major issue for the CDC.  Ever since the start of COVID, the CDC has had issues with how to deal with the 10s of thousands of crew members.  For months they simply forced them to stay on their ships (with no pay).  Then the CDC said that the cruise lines had to find a way to get crew members (even those that were healthy) home without using any public or commercial transportation within the USA.  Some cruise lines had to actually charter aircraft to move some crew and eventually the cruise lines moved 10s of thousands of crew around the world by moving them on cruise ships (at huge expense).  This process has taken months!  Reversing that process for a restart is not a viable option.

 

Hank

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