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Would you fly to Cruise?


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3 hours ago, ighten said:

 

Aircraft --- Filters (air i xchanged - granted its changed with a mixture of kerosene 🙂 )   and your semi in control as long as you dont need the bathroom..

 

Airport - just look at any recent photo of people queuing for customs/border/terminal shuttle/car park shuttle etc / etc etc   

 

The airlines are using hospital-grade HEPA filters on their planes.  Far more effective than those silly masks we're forced to wear.  Which are absolutely incapable of stopping an aerosolized virus.  My flights connected in DFW, one of the busiest airports in the world.  I never saw any queues anywhere.  People taking the train from terminal to terminal maintained physical distancing.

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4 minutes ago, Happy Cruiser 6143 said:

 

The airlines are using hospital-grade HEPA filters on their planes.  Far more effective than those silly masks we're forced to wear.  Which are absolutely incapable of stopping an aerosolized virus.  My flights connected in DFW, one of the busiest airports in the world.  I never saw any queues anywhere.  People taking the train from terminal to terminal maintained physical distancing.

Unfortunately, HEPA filters provide no protection whatsoever from the people sitting beside or behind you. If you are all wearing masks, however, you are all reducing the possible spread of the virus. Nothing silly about the masks.

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Whether one wants to accept the risk is of course a personal decision.  But I just don't see the logic of someone willing to cruise, but not willing to fly on an airplane.  Yes, if you are sitting within a few feet of someone who is sick and does not wear a mask (or not wear one correctly) you have a chance of catching the virus no matter what you do.   At the very most, you might be exposed for 9-10 hours (some longer exceptions of course), and most people flying from somewhere in the US to Florida, for example, would be 4 hours or less.  Given the sophistication of the air filter system, you are really only almost exclusively exposed to the airborne particles of those within several feet of you (with some minimal exceptions like someone walking past or you walking to the restroom).  Right now in most areas, even in the US, the positivity rate of those being tested ranges from 2% in the best areas to perhaps 40% in the worst (and the 40% states are minimal, as are the 2% for that matter - most are towards the lower percentage end).  So the odds of you being within several feet of someone positive with the virus are very slim (granted not zero, but very slim).

 

On a cruise ship, no one knows how many days ships will start with, but let's assume 7 for sake of argument.  And let's assume 50% capacity.    During those 7 days you will be in close quarters with 1,000 passengers (on an M class; more on S or Edge class) and perhaps 500 or so crew members. They may have been tested prior to boarding, but there are too many false negatives as well as negatives showing up for people recently infected, where it doesn't register yet.   They may be wearing masks, presuming it is required and they follow the rules.  But they won't be wearing them at dinner or when drinking in the bars.  Tables may be more spread out, but there is only so much room to spread them.  Staff who are serving meals and drinks will be interacting with many people on any given day.  Room stewards will be cleaning rooms of perhaps a dozen or so cabins.  You will be passing these people in tight hallways and perhaps riding elevators with them.  You may be swimming in the same pools and hot tubs.  Even presuming masks are worn, unless they are medical grade they are not 100% effective in protecting you from them or them from you.  If anyone disembarks in a port of call, the odds of the virus being onboard substantially increases.

 

Bottom line, while the concentration of risk may be arguably larger on an airplane , the overall exposure to risk is much, much greater on a cruise ship than on an airplane.

 

I am not a scientist and don't claim to be one.  But to me these statements are just common sense.  

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I only went through the first page of responses but no one mentioned this. We will not fly or cruise again until there is a widely-distributed vaccine and some that vaccine is in our bodies.

 

We have a close friend who was quarantined on Zaandam for more than a month before being allowed to get off in Fort Lauderdale. They had more than 50 active cases on board and four people died. He got off and was tested before he flew home and was negative. 

 

He caught Covid on the plane home. Totally masked, totally safe (or so he thought). Survived but only because he was a 41 year old healthy guy. Was pretty sick though and still hasn't gotten back his sense of smell or taste. 

 

And those of you who would cruise now...remember it's not just catching it, it's being confined on a ship, in your stateroom (especially an inside) until a country/city/state will let you dock and be allowed off. One of the first three ships to sail post-covid now has 35+ people on board who have tested positive. Wonder how long it will take to get them off the ship.

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Absolutely I would fly.  In the past two weeks have flown from Michigan to Florida and Michigan to North Carolina.  Will be flying to Cancun late September to spend a fun week at my time share.   Have a Celebrity cruise booked December 5th 2020 and if goes I will be on it.   Not hiding in the closet waiting for a vaccine.  Battled cancer two years ago and will enjoy my life while I have it.  Believe that God has a plan for us all and when our time is up he will decide not me.

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If your waiting for a vaccine your going to be waiting a long time for one thats as effective as what a lot of people seem to be hoping for.. It is not and will not be the answer to everything... Will it be beneficial - YES -- is it the one stop cure people seem to think NO..

 

I'll be on the first ship to sail as long as I think it has sensible risk solutions and and has a (info and contact) plan for dealing with an outbreak (crew or passenger ) because its a FACT , an outbreak  will happen - just like it does everyday in an office/shopping mall/supermarket/bar/restaurant/All inclusive Holiday resorts etc etc, it is impossible for it not too..  

 

I would prefer to sail locally without a flight but thats only because in the UK airports (IMO) have been doing a pretty poor job of spacing and hygiene with unmanaged queues at security for departure  and understaffed border control points inwards (Manchester I'm looking at you) .. Not helped by the usual dismal sight of too many drunken idiots in the airprot bars piling onto cheap charter flights..

 

 

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We are a 10-15 hour drive from a cruise port and I would not consider driving that. Am I concerned about flying? Yes, even if middle seats are not booked you still have many people in close proximity to you. However, I find it a bit silly to worry about flying if you are flying to go on a cruise. I don't think they are anywhere close to working out a system for social distancing on a cruise. A 2 hour flight where masks are required; while it's more risky than staying home, it's less risky than spending 7 days in the small confined spaces of a cruise ship.

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2 hours ago, ighten said:

If your waiting for a vaccine your going to be waiting a long time for one thats as effective as what a lot of people seem to be hoping for.. It is not and will not be the answer to everything... Will it be beneficial - YES -- is it the one stop cure people seem to think NO..

 

I'll be on the first ship to sail as long as I think it has sensible risk solutions and and has a (info and contact) plan for dealing with an outbreak (crew or passenger ) because its a FACT , an outbreak  will happen - just like it does everyday in an office/shopping mall/supermarket/bar/restaurant/All inclusive Holiday resorts etc etc, it is impossible for it not too..  

 

I would prefer to sail locally without a flight but thats only because in the UK airports (IMO) have been doing a pretty poor job of spacing and hygiene with unmanaged queues at security for departure  and understaffed border control points inwards (Manchester I'm looking at you) .. Not helped by the usual dismal sight of too many drunken idiots in the airprot bars piling onto cheap charter flights..

 

 

You reminded me of during a Europe trip, flying from Glasgow to Faro, Portugal was taken aback by the early morning, (8 am) drinking.  Asked someone as it’s not common in our parts.  His response “ our holiday starts at the Airport”.   An hour into our flight there were five guys lined up for the wash room.  Now that could be a problem.

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To all the people willing to fly. How do you think the virus arrived in the USA? How do you think the virus got from state to state and city to city so quickly? It would seem to me it was because people were using airlines to travel from location to location. I think I will wait for a while before flying again.

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We would happily fly to board a ship in the Mediterranean. We will be flying to Madrid this Thursday to see our DD and SIL. He is currently working on the MSC Virtuoso in St Nazaire, but the shipyard closed for a two week holiday last Friday so we get to see him again after over a year.

Edited by Esprit
typo
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3 hours ago, rhblake said:

Upon your return home are you going to have to quarantine for 14 days?

I will. I was due to sail on Enchanted Princess for two weeks from last Saturday so I've have the time booked off and can manage another week in quarantine. Annoying but I can't afford to take three weeks off at any other time of the year and I'm desperate to see my DD and SIL again after such a long gap.

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18 hours ago, Happy Cruiser 6143 said:

 

The airlines are using hospital-grade HEPA filters on their planes.  Far more effective than those silly masks we're forced to wear.  Which are absolutely incapable of stopping an aerosolized virus.  My flights connected in DFW, one of the busiest airports in the world.  I never saw any queues anywhere.  People taking the train from terminal to terminal maintained physical distancing.

The purpose of the mask is to primarily reduce the exhaled air velocity (to a lessor degree the inhaled velocity as well).  that means according to studies particles from one talking will normal travel as far as 9-12 feet.  Bad news if one is infected and facing talking to someone 6 feet away.  With a 3 layer surgical mask (not N95) that travel distance it reduced to less than 1 foot. Creating a considerable margin of safety.  If someone inhales the amount of space that the air is pulled from around them will also be reduced again lowering risk (though this has not been studies so not quantifiable study data is available . While they will do some filtering of large particles.  That is not the intent.

 

On an aircraft if everyone is wearing masks and one is not leaning close to talking with a stranger the level of risk is relatively low.  One can also take steps to reduce it.  On aircraft the air enters the cabin at the top and exits down near the feet.  One can use the adjustable air vents to create even more of a buffer by turning it onto max and aiming it towards their face.  This will create a downward jet right in front of their face meaning that the air they are breathing is filtered and other air is pushed towards the floor exhaust vents.  Other steps would be to not eat or drink on the plane.  Do not talk with the flight attendants or strangers seated near you. Remain in your seat if possible.  Wipe down all exposed surfaces that you come in contact with at your seat.

 

Even though I consider it to be relatively safe, if everyone follows the rules and good safety practices.  I will still not fly because during a pandamic it is not good practice to do non-essential travel. The amount of recreational travel taking place in the US is one of the factors currently helping spread the illness.

 

Edited by npcl
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Once cruising starts again NO WAY!

 

The airlines have gotten a free pass this whole time because they are seen as essential and also very hard to track who came into contact with who in the terminals, because the spread could have happened in the terminal and not the flight. We also flew Southwest twice in February, and it would be difficult to figure out who sat next to an infected person because of the lack of assigned seating. Also the comments I have heard from higher ups in this thing tells me they are sticking their heads in the sand on airline travel.

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21 minutes ago, cgolf1 said:

Once cruising starts again NO WAY!

 

The airlines have gotten a free pass this whole time because they are seen as essential and also very hard to track who came into contact with who in the terminals, because the spread could have happened in the terminal and not the flight. We also flew Southwest twice in February, and it would be difficult to figure out who sat next to an infected person because of the lack of assigned seating. Also the comments I have heard from higher ups in this thing tells me they are sticking their heads in the sand on airline travel.

As a person who volunteers to do contact tracing I can say with certainty that one of the things we check is if someone was recently on a plane and if someone was recently on a plane that information is passed to the CDC for notification to the county at the other end.  I can also say while we have had people that have flown into our local airport that have later tested positive we have not seen any cases where others in our country have also  tested positive that were on the same flight. That is not to say that spread does not happen on a flight, but also that even if there is someone infected on a plane spread is not a certainty.

 

We are seeing far more spread from people from outside of our area driving into the area to visit family and friends.

Edited by npcl
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17 hours ago, DrKoob said:

I only went through the first page of responses but no one mentioned this. We will not fly or cruise again until there is a widely-distributed vaccine and some that vaccine is in our bodies.

 

We have a close friend who was quarantined on Zaandam for more than a month before being allowed to get off in Fort Lauderdale. They had more than 50 active cases on board and four people died. He got off and was tested before he flew home and was negative. 

 

He caught Covid on the plane home. Totally masked, totally safe (or so he thought). Survived but only because he was a 41 year old healthy guy. Was pretty sick though and still hasn't gotten back his sense of smell or taste. 

 

And those of you who would cruise now...remember it's not just catching it, it's being confined on a ship, in your stateroom (especially an inside) until a country/city/state will let you dock and be allowed off. One of the first three ships to sail post-covid now has 35+ people on board who have tested positive. Wonder how long it will take to get them off the ship.

Excellent post , as in others of yours I've read !! 

With 5000-6000 people on board " someone " is bound to get sick and everyone quarantined .

I just can't understand why so many people are prepared to take the risk of cruising as soon as ships are permitted to sail ? 

Why take the chance ????

 

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20 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Unfortunately, HEPA filters provide no protection whatsoever from the people sitting beside or behind you. If you are all wearing masks, however, you are all reducing the possible spread of the virus. Nothing silly about the masks.

 

There is plenty which is silly about the masks.  They are not capable of stopping aerosolized vitus particles, for openers.  The HEPA filters are.

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4 minutes ago, Happy Cruiser 6143 said:

 

There is plenty which is silly about the masks.  They are not capable of stopping aerosolized vitus particles, for openers.  The HEPA filters are.

They are capable of reducing the spread distance such that the normal downward airflow on a plane can prevent them from reaching the people around them. 

 

The good news is that on most US airlines ones opinion about the masks being silly or not, no longer matters, they are required to the point of passengers being removed from flights if not willing to comply.

Edited by npcl
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3 minutes ago, Pinboy said:

Excellent post , as in others of yours I've read !! 

With 5000-6000 people on board " someone " is bound to get sick and everyone quarantined .

I just can't understand why so many people are prepared to take the risk of cruising as soon as ships are permitted to sail ? 

Why take the chance ????

 

Posts like this baffle me -- So whats your solution to starting up or are we just going to sit and allow an industry to die..

 

If your not prepared to partake in the slow start up , fine but at least have an alternative answer... If there isnt a slow start up - nothing will happen and cruising is finished as an industry..

 

If you think a Vaccine is the answer -- Noooooo.... How many times can it be said it is not an answer.. Even the WHO have today now stated this because they have started to realise people are being misinformed about what a vaccine will actually achieve.

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16 minutes ago, Pinboy said:

Excellent post , as in others of yours I've read !! 

With 5000-6000 people on board " someone " is bound to get sick and everyone quarantined .

I just can't understand why so many people are prepared to take the risk of cruising as soon as ships are permitted to sail ? 

Why take the chance ????

 

I don't understand why some are concerned why others are prepared and want to cruise when cruise lines get the go ahead to start cruising again. :classic_rolleyes: Some may believe in nothing ventured, nothing gained. Back to the topic of this thread, we haven't decided if we'd fly or not yet. 

Edited by davekathy
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24 minutes ago, npcl said:

As a person who volunteers to do contact tracing I can say with certainty that one of the things we check is if someone was recently on a plane and if someone was recently on a plane that information is passed to the CDC for notification to the county at the other end.  I can also say while we have had people that have flown into our local airport that have later tested positive we have not seen any cases where others in our country have also  tested positive that were on the same flight. That is not to say that spread does not happen on a flight, but also that even if there is someone infected on a plane spread is not a certainty.

 

We are seeing far more spread from people from outside of our area driving into the area to visit family and friends.

 

I do think that right now there are very few people flying, but that will change. In the beginning of this though a lot of people were still flying, and there were many stories of people that came from Italy or other countries with a high infection rate and were just allowed to walk off the plane into the US without any kind of check whatsoever. I am hoping that if flights pick up they do a better job.

 

I have a coworker/friend who may be flying in September, will be interested to hear how the experience is.

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13 minutes ago, davekathy said:

 Some may believe in nothing ventured, nothing gained.

No argument there , however ,  IMO , it's best to play the odds. 

While we would have a long flight , stay in a hotel for a few days, eat in restaurants, etc , we would still be spending much more time taking a risk by being on a cruise.  

As I said a few days ago, I hope whomever chooses to cruise has a good time with no issues.

Yes, everyone has different opinions and I respect them all.

 

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3 minutes ago, Pinboy said:

No argument there , however ,  IMO , it's best to play the odds. 

While we would have a long flight , stay in a hotel for a few days, eat in restaurants, etc , we would still be spending much more time taking a risk by being on a cruise.  

As I said a few days ago, I hope whomever chooses to cruise has a good time with no issues.

Yes, everyone has different opinions and I respect them all.

 

Yep, to each their own. 

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