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39 minutes ago, Lonedaddy said:

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Yep, you're right.  The world stays in a stagnant state - nothing has been learned through years of study and experience.  No laws ever change to reflect the current knowledge, rather than the past beliefs.  An argument with no logic to it at all!

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the argument is what everyone believes to be true today may very well be detrimental and just because some researcher sponsored by big pharma says it's fact doesn't mean it is.  Covid is not deadly to most and doesn't require a vax like small pox or polio.  I'm not antivax but you can try to vax everything.

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14 minutes ago, Lonedaddy said:

the argument is what everyone believes to be true today may very well be detrimental and just because some researcher sponsored by big pharma says it's fact doesn't mean it is.  Covid is not deadly to most and doesn't require a vax like small pox or polio.  I'm not antivax but you can try to vax everything.

Covid is not deadly to mist you say.  True.  Less that 50% die.  However the percentage requiring a lengthy hospital stay along with a possibility of lung or other permanent damage to you or me approaches 10% for those with underlying conditions makes a vaccination a requirement to engage in a voluntary leisure activity for my wife.

Shingles has a fatality rate of close to zero.  Should you protest yourself from shingles?

As for cruising or international travel there are already vax requirements for many countries.  Do you think a COVID vax might be required?

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9 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

Covid is not deadly to mist you say.  True.  Less that 50% die.  However the percentage requiring a lengthy hospital stay along with a possibility of lung or other permanent damage to you or me approaches 10% for those with underlying conditions makes a vaccination a requirement to engage in a voluntary leisure activity for my wife.

Shingles has a fatality rate of close to zero.  Should you protest yourself from shingles?

As for cruising or international travel there are already vax requirements for many countries.  Do you think a COVID vax might be required?

In addition 

 

Child Inflammatory Syndrome

cardiac damage

kidney damage

neurological disorders

persistent loss of smell

increase in child onset type 1 diabetes rates

increase in Guillian-Barre Syndrome cases

 

There is a whole range of impacts that are now showing up  (still in the early days) in various peer reviewed papers going well beyond the fatality rate.  Impacts that have the potential for long term medical and quality of life costs.  We will not know all of these impacts for years.  The amount of such danger signals that have already appeared in a virus that has been around less than a year is amazing and not a good sign.

 

There are also numerously documented cases of young adults who have had mild cases yet months later have ongoing symptoms including chronic fatigue.  

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2 hours ago, Lonedaddy said:

 

and if it is legally required and someone gets Guillain-Barre syndrome as a result who is liable?

In general

 

National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program

 

The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is a no-fault alternative to the traditional legal system for resolving vaccine injury petitions.

It was created in the 1980s, after lawsuits against vaccine companies and health care providers threatened to cause vaccine shortages and reduce U.S. vaccination rates, which could have caused a resurgence of vaccine preventable diseases.

Any individual, of any age, who received a covered vaccine and believes he or she was injured as a result, can file a petition. Parents, legal guardians and legal representatives can file on behalf of children, disabled adults, and individuals who are deceased.

 

 

 

Though medical literature indicates that one has a higher chance of developing GBS after getting the flu than after getting the vaccination.

Edited by npcl
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27 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

Covid is not deadly to mist you say.  True.  Less that 50% die.  However the percentage requiring a lengthy hospital stay along with a possibility of lung or other permanent damage to you or me approaches 10% for those with underlying conditions makes a vaccination a requirement to engage in a voluntary leisure activity for my wife.

Shingles has a fatality rate of close to zero.  Should you protest yourself from shingles?

As for cruising or international travel there are already vax requirements for many countries.  Do you think a COVID vax might be required?

So get a vax for it no one is saying you can't, your choice.  

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3 hours ago, Lonedaddy said:

 

So get a vax for it no one is saying you can't, your choice.  

I will.  Right now there isn't one.   My point is this chance of death, long term health problems or a lengthy hospital stay is significant.  A far higher percentage than the 2% that die.  Using hospitalizations are you willing to risk a 1 in 20 chance of hospitalization of death to take a cruise?

PS you did not answer the question as to if you think a Vaccination for COVID will be required to Cruise.  Would you get one?

Much like the vaccinations required by many countries for entry or return, I suspect a vaccination or proof of negative testing will be required in the future.

Edited by Arizona Wildcat
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On 8/19/2020 at 7:36 PM, d9704011 said:

Reasoning - reduction in flu cases reduces impact on health care system and frees up resources in evenf of CV-19 outbreaks.

Exemptions - medical and religious reasons.

Not a bad idea.  From what I read, young people are more at risk from the flu than COVID-19.

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2 hours ago, 4774Papa said:

Not a bad idea.  From what I read, young people are more at risk from the flu than COVID-19.

Nope.  According to stats for a normal flu year  

Percentage deaths by age group

65+          83% 

50-64      11%

18-49      4.6%

5-17        .9%

0-4          .2%

 

If you compared that breakdown of flu deaths with the overall flu mortality rate  of .13% you find and even not including the secondary health impacts of COVID(inflammation syndrome, heart damage, kidney damage, etc). young people are not more at risk from the flu.

 

Though there have been some strains with some relatively uncommon outbreaks (the 1918 outbreak for one, the swine flu outbreak for another that did hit younger age groups harder than normal, probably due to lack of previous infection from a relatively rare, at the time, strain)

Edited by npcl
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58 minutes ago, npcl said:

Nope.  According to stats for a normal flu year  

Percentage deaths by age group

65+          83% 

50-64      11%

18-49      4.6%

5-17        .9%

0-4          .2%

 

If you compared that breakdown of flu deaths with the overall flu mortality rate  of .13% you find and even not including the secondary health impacts of COVID(inflammation syndrome, heart damage, kidney damage, etc). young people are not more at risk from the flu.

 

Though there have been some strains with some relatively uncommon outbreaks (the 1918 outbreak for one, the swine flu outbreak for another that did hit younger age groups harder than normal, probably due to lack of previous infection from a relatively rare, at the time, strain)

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-05-07/comparing-coronavirus-deaths-by-age-with-flu-driving-fatalities

 

For children, the risk of dying from Covid-19 appears to be much less than that of dying from influenza and pneumonia even in the most pessimistic of my three scenarios. From age 15 onward the Covid risk is higher, with the relative difference peaking for those in the 45 through 54 age group, whose risk of dying from Covid-19 in my middle scenario is four and a half times higher than their influenza and pneumonia mortality rate in 2018.

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4 minutes ago, 4774Papa said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-05-07/comparing-coronavirus-deaths-by-age-with-flu-driving-fatalities

 

For children, the risk of dying from Covid-19 appears to be much less than that of dying from influenza and pneumonia even in the most pessimistic of my three scenarios. From age 15 onward the Covid risk is higher, with the relative difference peaking for those in the 45 through 54 age group, whose risk of dying from Covid-19 in my middle scenario is four and a half times higher than their influenza and pneumonia mortality rate in 2018.

You are citing an article over three months old. Given the significant changes over that period of time, you might want to look for more current information.

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31 minutes ago, 4774Papa said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-05-07/comparing-coronavirus-deaths-by-age-with-flu-driving-fatalities

 

For children, the risk of dying from Covid-19 appears to be much less than that of dying from influenza and pneumonia even in the most pessimistic of my three scenarios. From age 15 onward the Covid risk is higher, with the relative difference peaking for those in the 45 through 54 age group, whose risk of dying from Covid-19 in my middle scenario is four and a half times higher than their influenza and pneumonia mortality rate in 2018.

The data has changed since the article was written in may.  The inflammation syndrome and other impacts of COVID are recognized now.

 

Using the latest counts in the US for under 18  you have  the mortality with COVID in that age group at .0015%  vs Flu at .0011%.

Edited by npcl
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On 8/21/2020 at 8:34 AM, Lonedaddy said:

and everything the CDC says is 100% accurate.  and if you never had GBS then you have no room to talk.  what happened to my body my choice?  

 

Well you do have a choice no VAX no cruise simple choice.

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Not that simple, LonedD.  Your logic implies that what you choose to do with your body impacts only you.  Same reason that there are restrictions on smoking:  not getting a covid vac increase the odds that others, even those vaccinated, will contract the illness from you since no vac is 100% effective.  Being on a ship, perhaps in the middle of an ocean is no place to get this disease.  I'm a survivor of Legionairres so I know what I'm talking about.  If ships don't require proof of vaccination, we're going to be on it.

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Kids are very rarely vaccinated for influenza in the USA.  But they definitely get it and they definitely spread it to other kids, their parents and grandparents.  It can be deadly in kids.  They are a constant source of the virus during flu season.  But most parents choose not to vaccinate their kids for flu.  I think that same logic might apply for a COVID vaccine unless mandatory to attend public schools.

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7 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Kids are very rarely vaccinated for influenza in the USA.  But they definitely get it and they definitely spread it to other kids, their parents and grandparents.  It can be deadly in kids.  They are a constant source of the virus during flu season.  But most parents choose not to vaccinate their kids for flu.  I think that same logic might apply for a COVID vaccine unless mandatory to attend public schools.

Rick - not correct.  Kids 2-17 vas rate over 60% according to CSC in 2019.  

What was explained to me yesterday by an infectious disease doctor is that both flu and COVID are RNA viruses that cause inflammation.  The immune system weakens with age - a fact we should all be able to agree - thus vaccines are on average less effective the older we are. 

The problem is children are huge spreaders of flu (30-40% no vac) and pass the flu on to older household members.  This in turn weakens parents and grandparents immune systems putting them at higher risk for flu and COVID.  Combine the two and the result would increase likelihood for more severe COVID cases.

Good examples of this are Yuma county AZ where many Hispanic workers living in multigenerational homes caught COVID with numerous deaths and complications.  Same situation on Navajo Nation.

This is simply an extension of the numerous studies showing those with underlying conditions were more likely to be hospitalized or die that those with none.  Flu when it arrives will join the others as an underlying condition.

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17 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

Rick - not correct.  Kids 2-17 vas rate over 60% according to CSC in 2019.  

What was explained to me yesterday by an infectious disease doctor is that both flu and COVID are RNA viruses that cause inflammation.  The immune system weakens with age - a fact we should all be able to agree - thus vaccines are on average less effective the older we are. 

The problem is children are huge spreaders of flu (30-40% no vac) and pass the flu on to older household members.  This in turn weakens parents and grandparents immune systems putting them at higher risk for flu and COVID.  Combine the two and the result would increase likelihood for more severe COVID cases.

Good examples of this are Yuma county AZ where many Hispanic workers living in multigenerational homes caught COVID with numerous deaths and complications.  Same situation on Navajo Nation.

This is simply an extension of the numerous studies showing those with underlying conditions were more likely to be hospitalized or die that those with none.  Flu when it arrives will join the others as an underlying condition.

You are quite right!  I did not think the percentage was that high in the US so thanks for correcting my post.  I seem to recall lower numbers in my past experience so maybe I was thinking about the percent of kids getting the two-shot series as recommended?  Anyway my point and yours both agree I think in principle that kids are super-spreaders of influenza.  And cold and respiratory viruses too (other coronaviruses, rhinoviruses, adenoviruses).  They are little germ factories!  😀

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On 8/21/2020 at 11:34 AM, Lonedaddy said:

and everything the CDC says is 100% accurate.  and if you never had GBS then you have no room to talk.  what happened to my body my choice?  

 

Huh? your body is your choice. I don't believe that anyone is suggesting that any vaccine is absolutely mandatory for everyone. Now, a business can choose not to do business with you without one. A country may choose not to let a tourist in without one. A school may not let children attend in person classes without one. Their country/building/business/facility their choice.  But you can certainly sit at home without getting vaccinated with no issues.

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13 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

Huh? your body is your choice. I don't believe that anyone is suggesting that any vaccine is absolutely mandatory for everyone. Now, a business can choose not to do business with you without one. A country may choose not to let a tourist in without one. A school may not let children attend in person classes without one. Their country/building/business/facility their choice.  But you can certainly sit at home without getting vaccinated with no issues.

Possibly, at the current time, but as this article indicates, staying at home provides no guarantee that you can avoid a mandated vaccination. The article is worth reading in its entirety, but these paragraphs reflect the possible legal aspect:

 

In the 1905 landmark case Jacobson v. Massachusetts, the United States Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of a state criminal law that required all adult inhabitants of Cambridge to get a smallpox vaccine or be fined. The Supreme Court explained that an individual’s liberty rights under the U.S. Constitution are not absolute and the mandatory vaccination law was necessary to promote public health and safety.

While Jacobson v. Massachusetts is over 100 years old, courts continue to rely on the reasoning of the case. State governments still occasionally enact broad compulsory vaccination policies. In 2019, in the midst of a measles outbreak, New York City mandated that anyone over six months of age who lived, went to school or worked in several ZIP codes within the city had to be vaccinated against measles or be subject to a fine.

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13 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Possibly, at the current time, but as this article indicates, staying at home provides no guarantee that you can avoid a mandated vaccination. The article is worth reading in its entirety, but these paragraphs reflect the possible legal aspect:

 

In the 1905 landmark case Jacobson v. Massachusetts, the United States Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of a state criminal law that required all adult inhabitants of Cambridge to get a smallpox vaccine or be fined. The Supreme Court explained that an individual’s liberty rights under the U.S. Constitution are not absolute and the mandatory vaccination law was necessary to promote public health and safety.

While Jacobson v. Massachusetts is over 100 years old, courts continue to rely on the reasoning of the case. State governments still occasionally enact broad compulsory vaccination policies. In 2019, in the midst of a measles outbreak, New York City mandated that anyone over six months of age who lived, went to school or worked in several ZIP codes within the city had to be vaccinated against measles or be subject to a fine.

 

There's been no credible reason to believe that a flu vaccine or coronavirus vaccine will ever be "required" by all US citizens. The current thread is for the flu vaccine being required for school children to attend in person classes (which is perfectly reasonable since historically children going to public school have required vaccinations and there is an online option if someone doesn't get one). I do believe that a coronavirus vaccine will be required in the future for some circumstances, but largely the same ones. School children going to public school, perhaps some work places, definitely by other countries for international travel. But I haven't seen anything that suggests that it would become "mandatory' for everyone.

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3 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

There's been no credible reason to believe that a flu vaccine or coronavirus vaccine will ever be "required" by all US citizens. The current thread is for the flu vaccine being required for school children to attend in person classes (which is perfectly reasonable since historically children going to public school have required vaccinations and there is an online option if someone doesn't get one). I do believe that a coronavirus vaccine will be required in the future for some circumstances, but largely the same ones. School children going to public school, perhaps some work places, definitely by other countries for international travel. But I haven't seen anything that suggests that it would become "mandatory' for everyone.

I don't disagree, I think that it is highly unlikely that there will be a mandated mass vaccination for Covid-19 or the flu. I was simply pointing out that your assertion that "you can certainly sit at home without getting vaccinated with no issues" doesn't hold true in all cases.

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7 minutes ago, WonderMan3 said:

I'm wondering if those who take issue with this mandatory flu vaccine idea would then not cruise if the cruise lines made a COVID vaccination mandatory?

They’re not nearly the same things.  The ‘idea’ of mandating a vaccination, presumably in the cause of public health, is much different than a cruise line condition for partaking in their leisure/recreation product.

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