MSC Not Tolerating Violation of New C-19 Health Protocols

[npcl]

1 hour ago, Dwight1 said:

Oh , I believe the enforcement on US departures will be big trouble and its effect will ruin the experience as some decry lax enforcement while others ignore it quite openly. A scene just best avoided when I’m footing the bill. If these cruise lines think hundreds of years of independent thinking and actions by Americans will suddenly fall into line like Europeans whose history is one of subservience to the masses at the expense of the individual they quite wrong and ignorant. Two different cultures require different rules.if they don’t, the burden of the massive debt they are taking on now will not be the only cause if their demise. Many fine companies have disappeared due to the level of debt they have now acquired. In the long term with no cruising till onto next year their survival is in high doubt.

 

Ps: the motto on New Hampshire license plates is; Live Free Or Die. No such phrase exists in Europe anywhere.

 

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So to put it simply you are not willing to put your money where your mouth is.  

 

After all if you are correct then you would not need to worry about what rules are in place from a US departure because as you put it 

 

" If these cruise lines think hundreds of years of independent thinking and actions by Americans will suddenly fall into line like Europeans whose history is one of subservience to the masses at the expense of the individual they quite wrong and ignorant."

 

The cruise lines have kicked Americans (just as they have other nationalities) off of ships before and will most likely do it again.

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by npcl

[Shadow9612]

2 hours ago, npcl said:

Nope just showing that their policies and procedures seem to be pretty effective.  Considering that they allow face shields, while our CDC discourages them.  which is most have referenced when criticizing the MSC's use of shields.

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I think there are 2 concepts being co-mingled.

 

The issue I (and some) had was not necessarily criticizing MSC for allowing face shields, but rather, their literature wasn't clear.  Cruising is a global phenomenon (doesn't matter that only Italians are allowed on board right now), so their literature has to be crystal clear with no room for interpretation.  We are in a pandemic!  They used the example face mask for PPE but clearly allow other face coverings which are not face masks.  That's fine.  But then say that.   Then I can make an informed decision. 

 

This naturally progressed to a discussion of which is better.   My simple understanding is:

 

Face maks protect others. 

Face shields protect me. 

 

We need to worry about each other, so masks are better.  😀

[npcl]

1 minute ago, Shadow9612 said:

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I think there are 2 concepts being co-mingled.

 

The issue I (and some) had was not necessarily criticizing MSC for allowing face shields, but rather, their literature wasn't clear.  Cruising is a global phenomenon (doesn't matter that only Italians are allowed on board right now), so their literature has to be crystal clear with no room for interpretation.  We are in a pandemic!  They used the example face mask for PPE but clearly allow other face coverings which are not face masks.  That's fine.  But then say that.   Then I can make an informed decision. 

 

This naturally progressed to a discussion of which is better.   My simple understanding is:

 

Face maks protect others. 

Face shields protect me. 

 

We need to worry about each other, so masks are better.  😀

However, my point is that countries that have approved the use of shields on board ships, are controlling the outbreak very effectively.

 

The face shield seems to be rather clear on their video describing the protections they have in place.  Are you absolutely certain it is not in other places in the literature.  I seem to recall that even the comment that was pointed out earlier in the stream that started this debate.  The actual comment in their literature which said "All crew will wear protective equipment, such as face masks and gloves".  I do believe that face shields would fall order the definition of protective equipment such as.  After all it does not say that all will wear masks

 

As someone else from Europe mentioned earlier, the use of face shields in more common in Europe in customer service and on waiters.  As such it seems like it is primarily use in the US, that are shocked that they are using shields on some staff.  Primarily those positions where communication with the customer is key. Of course some people get upset when I point out that they are doing a much better job of outbreak management than we are.

 

The guidelines, which they seem to be following, were approved by their national regulatory authority, which has actually been pretty strict in their management of the outbreak.  

 

I do think your comments about shields vs masks is a bit simplistic.

 

https://news.llu.edu/health-wellness/face-masks-versus-face-shields-which-one-better#:~:text=However%2C Veltman says research has,someone cannot wear a mask.&text=She says a mask can,chin and around the ears.

 

“It’s too complicated to compare a face shield to a face mask because people are not all wearing the same masks,” Veltman says. “In the community, some people are wearing bandannas, homemade masks or N-95 masks. There has not been a study comparing face shields to masks, and doing such study would be challenging since mask materials vary greatly in the community.”

However, Veltman says research has found that face shields are beneficial if someone cannot wear a mask. If someone coughs 18 inches from you while you are wearing a face shield, the immediate viral exposure is reduced by 96%, Veltman says. If the person remains coughing and talking with you for 30 minutes, then the face shield blocks 68% of the small air particles, she adds.

 

Prolonged exposure reduces the amount of protection of the shield, Veltman says. If someone combines their mask with a face shield, it can provide added protection. Regardless of the statistics supporting face shields as a form of protection, Veltman stands by the face masks as the number one form of protection. She says a mask can fully cover your nose and mouth and fits securely on your face; she believes it adds more protection than a shield, which has open spaces underneath the chin and around the ears.

[npcl]

Also keep in mind that on the MSC ships with their protocol the crew is more extensively tested, having to go through multiple rounds of tests, plus a quarantine period before they ever get on board ship.  They are also monitored while on board.

 

As such I would expect that the crew is at higher risk from the passengers (no quarantine period, 1 test prior to boarding) than the passengers are from the crew.

 

While most studies have measured shields effectiveness in protecting the wearer, there are not any studies that indicated that they also do not protect others from the wearer.  Only that no such studies have been conducted.  There has been a study (I will have to see if I can find it) that has demonstrated air flow from a person wearing a full faces mask that that study indicates a definite impact on particle velocity and distance of travel from the wearer.  T

 

he faces masks do block large particles from being transmitted pretty effectively if worn correctly.  They are less effective than masks when it comes to small particles. Pretty much the same issue as masks with the exhaust valves that some people wear.

 

Of course a shield and for that matter non-medical grade masks will not provide protection a environment where the virus is truly in an aerosol spread throughout an area.

Edited August 25, 2020 by npcl

[Dermotsgirl]

6 hours ago, Dwight1 said:

Some went with Bligh and some with Christian. It will be a study in American individualism that is our backbone and the imposition of European rules of society. Hmmmm, I guess that’s why so many left in the last several hundred years.


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With that attitude, you’d have the European crowd rolling their eyes behind your back and thinking ‘typical Yank’.

 

* note to other Americans. I know you are not all like that. 

[Gracie115]

5 hours ago, npcl said:

Also keep in mind that on the MSC ships with their protocol the crew is more extensively tested, having to go through multiple rounds of tests, plus a quarantine period before they ever get on board ship.  They are also monitored while on board.

 

As such I would expect that the crew is at higher risk from the passengers (no quarantine period, 1 test prior to boarding) than the passengers are from the crew.

 

 

Exactly....AND what every line should be doing with their crews before they start up again...

[Miaminice]

14 minutes ago, Dwight1 said:

But their current governments and history clearly show they have different attitudes from a majority of Americans.

 

Thank you for the compliment! 👍🙂

[Shadow9612]

22 hours ago, npcl said:

Also keep in mind that on the MSC ships with their protocol the crew is more extensively tested, having to go through multiple rounds of tests, plus a quarantine period before they ever get on board ship.  They are also monitored while on board.

 

As such I would expect that the crew is at higher risk from the passengers (no quarantine period, 1 test prior to boarding) than the passengers are from the crew.

That's an interesting point I hadn't thought of... but, still, once exposed to potentially positive passengers, doesnt that means the risk of spread increases if using only face shields  (vs face masks)?

[Miaminice]

3 hours ago, Shadow9612 said:

That's an interesting point I hadn't thought of... but, still, once exposed to potentially positive passengers, doesnt that means the risk of spread increases if using only face shields  (vs face masks)?

 

Simplified bottom line is that face shields are not as effective as face masks, yes.

However, there are also differences in face masks - regular surgical masks, FFP2/FFP3 masks, the latter with valve or without valve and also the commonly used DIY masks.

 

Fact is also that you are just as protected if a waiter wears a face shield as if he wore the highest grade FFP3 mask WITH valve which would efficiently protect the waiter but not you. 

 

So we can now start a discussion if  professional face shield is maybe better than a DIY mask etc. etc. ... all of this is pointless.

The approved protocols allow some MSC staff to wear face shields. Some cruise lines have the guests tested before embarkation, staff are periodically tested, excursions (if there are any) are highly regulated and so on. Protocols and guidelines are clearly published by the cruise lines (TUI, MSC, Costa...) and part of the booking process. I know because I booked one of those cruises for September. The numbers here (German ship going to Greece) are low and the protocols sound fine to me.

 

All this is the best that can be done in the current situation. One either finds it sufficient and adequate and maybe books a cruise or one decides that it´s too risky and doesn´t book a cruise.

So I really don´t get the whole face shield discussion...

Edited August 26, 2020 by Miaminice

[MarkusToe]

to fill in some oil into the discussion about shield and masks...

The numbers in the US would be much lower if all the americains would use one or the other.....

[mnocket]

 

10 hours ago, Miaminice said:

Protocols and guidelines are clearly published by the cruise lines

 

That is the exactly the point -  they are not clearly published (at least in the case of MSC).  If you've followed this discussion, you've read what they say about PPE, masks and gloves.  I just don't understand how you can claim that they are clear and allow customers to make an informed decision.

 

10 hours ago, Miaminice said:

One either finds it sufficient and adequate and maybe books a cruise or one decides that it´s too risky and doesn´t book a cruise.

I agree, everyone needs to make their own decision.

 

10 hours ago, Miaminice said:

So I really don´t get the whole face shield discussion...

The point is that MSC's published protocol is not specific with respect to Crew PPE and therefore does not allow customers to make an informed decision.  A pretty important point to many.

[Miaminice]

49 minutes ago, mnocket said:

 

 

That is the exactly the point -  they are not clearly published (at least in the case of MSC).  If you've followed this discussion, you've read what they say about PPE, masks and gloves.  I just don't understand how you can claim that they are clear and allow customers to make an informed decision.

 

The point is that MSC's published protocol is not specific with respect to Crew PPE and therefore does not allow customers to make an informed decision.  A pretty important point to many.

If you had followed the discussion you’d eventually understand that MSC is selling the cruises to Italians only and had clearly published the guidelines which apply not only to MSC but also comply to Italian standards! And every Italian knows that face shields are accepted and approved in the hospitality business. They see it every day.

 

As long as MSC market the cruises for Italians only, who all know the protocol and what’s to be understood, it doesn’t make the slightest bit of a difference if you as an American, a Canadian, or possibly someone living on the Easter Island has a different understanding of the terms! 
 

It’s Italians only who might be required to make an informed decision - which they can do since they know what MSC is talking about. And that’s the only point which matters. You or I or “many” don’t matter! 
 

I don’t get why you are so adamant about that MSC would have to make you or anybody else who cannot cruise with them understand. It’s totally irrelevant in regards of the discussed cruises.
 

Again, I don’t and won’t cruise with MSC. They are very very low on my list. So I have no reason to defend them. However, unjustified accusations from far away neglecting the most basic point of relevance are something I can’t leave uncommented.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Miaminice

[mnocket]

14 minutes ago, Miaminice said:

If you had followed the discussion you’d eventually understand that MSC is selling the cruises to Italians only and had clearly published the guidelines which apply not only to MSC but also comply to Italian standards! And every Italian knows that face shields are accepted and approved in the hospitality business. They see it every day.

 

As long as MSC market the cruises for Italians only, who all know the protocol and what’s to be understood, it doesn’t make the slightest bit of a difference if you as an American, a Canadian, or possibly someone living on the Easter Island has a different understanding of the terms! 
 

It’s Italians only who might be required to make an informed decision - which they can do since they know what MSC is talking about. And that’s the only point which matters. You or I or “many” don’t matter! 
 

I don’t get why you are so adamant about that MSC would have to make you or anybody else who cannot cruise with them understand. It’s totally irrelevant in regards of the discussed cruises.
 

Again, I don’t and won’t cruise with MSC. They are very very low on my list. So I have no reason to defend them. However, unjustified accusations from far away neglecting the most basic point of relevance are something I can’t leave uncommented.

I understand the Italians view face shields differently than Americans.  The point remains that MSC's  guidelines are not clear.  Perhaps you can interpret for me.....

What does "All crew will wear PPE such as face masks and gloves"  mean specifically with respect to face and hand coverings?

Edited August 26, 2020 by mnocket

[sanger727]

The CDC has recently released a recommendation that businesses not challenge people who don't wear a mask - even though they are required - because there have been many instances of store employees being assaulted by the customers. There are a great many reasons for why Europe is doing better than the US that go far beyond the mask vs shield debate. When the center of disease control has to tell people - yes, people should wear a mask, but it's not worth getting shot over - it's pretty hopeless. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by sanger727

[Miaminice]

28 minutes ago, mnocket said:

Did MSC publish different protocols for  Italians? 

You don’t get it, do you? The cruises are available for Italians only. 
So MSC actually exclusively published the protocols for Italians. And they know what to make of the wording and guidelines. Do you see a single Italian complaining?

Edited August 26, 2020 by Miaminice

[ORV]

27 minutes ago, mnocket said:

I understand the Italians view face shields differently than Americans.  The point remains that MSC's  guidelines are not clear.  Perhaps you can interpret for me.....

What does "All crew will wear PPE such as face masks and gloves"  mean specifically with respect to face and hand coverings?

You're either very argumentative or very thick. It's been explained to you by multiple people. If you don't get it by now apparently you're not going to. 

[mnocket]

Just now, Miaminice said:

You don’t get it, do you? The cruises are available for Italians only. 
So MSC published protocols for Italians ONLY. And they know what to make of the wording and guidelines. Do you see a single Italian complaining?

So answer my simple question......

What does "All crew will wear PPE such as face masks and gloves" specifically mean to Italians in terms of face coverings and hand coverings?  It should be easy for to answer.  It's telling that no one who has claimed that MSC's guidelines are clear has been able to answer that simple question.  Let's hear it.

[vulcan1971]

21 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

The CDC has recently released a recommendation that businesses not challenge people who don't wear a mask - even though they are required - because there have been many instances of store employees being assaulted by the customers. There are a great many reasons for why Europe is doing better than the US that go far beyond the mask vs shield debate. When the center of disease control has to tell people - yes, people should wear a mask, but it's not worth getting shot over - it's pretty hopeless. 

 

Yeah, like people staying home for an extended time to limit the potential of spread followed by a slower and thoughtful reopening. Gee, I wonder if that would have worked in the U.S.? Oh, wait a second... isn't that what the CDC recommended in the reopening guidance? Much of the country didn't follow it and look where we are as a country.  The northeast did follow it and essentially are managing to have some semblance of normalcy. It comes at a great effort needed from ALL to make this work.

[mnocket]

4 minutes ago, ORV said:

You're either very argumentative or very thick. It's been explained to you by multiple people. If you don't get it by now apparently you're not going to. 

Perhaps.  So enlighten me.....

 

If "All crew members will wear PPE such as face masks and gloves" is so clear to you.  Answer these questions for me:

• Will all crew members wear face coverings?
• Will all crew members wear hand coverings?
• Do MSC's on board practices comply with your answers?

[ORV]

I truly don't see a point in trying to explain anything to you, you're not going to get it. 

[mnocket]

2 minutes ago, ORV said:

I truly don't see a point in trying to explain anything to you, you're not going to get it. 

 

With all due respect, that's a cop out.  I asked 3 straight forward questions that should be easy to answer.   I suspect the reason you didn't answer them is because you realized you couldn't and didn't want to admit it.  Prove me wrong.

[WrittenOnYourHeart]

16 hours ago, Shadow9612 said:

Also keep in mind that on the MSC ships with their protocol the crew is more extensively tested, having to go through multiple rounds of tests, plus a quarantine period before they ever get on board ship.  They are also monitored while on board.

 

It's not just MSC. Disney has a very similar protocol. Quarantine once landing in the US for 14 days, tested, quarantine once on board for 14 days. Temperatures taken multiple times a day and random testing done generally with immediate quarantine and testing if you show any respiratory illness symptoms and/or have a fever. (Yes, I do know a Disney crew member.)

[ORV]

33 minutes ago, mnocket said:

 

With all due respect, that's a cop out.  I asked 3 straight forward questions that should be easy to answer.   I suspect the reason you didn't answer them is because you realized you couldn't and didn't want to admit it.  Prove me wrong.

Not a cop out at all, you've repeatedly demonstrated that you are unwilling to get anything others have pointed out to you. I have no idea the answer to those questions, and why should I care? I do understand what the term "such as" means though. 

[cruisemom42]

 

This isn't something I'd choose to make a stand on.

 

To me (as an editor) saying "such as" implies "similar to" and not "exactly"....

 

[mnocket]

35 minutes ago, ORV said:

Not a cop out at all, you've repeatedly demonstrated that you are unwilling to get anything others have pointed out to you. I have no idea the answer to those questions, and why should I care? I do understand what the term "such as" means though. 

My point has been that the MSC guidelines do not give enough specific information about their COVID protocols to allow individuals to make an informed decision about sailing with them.    The fact that you (or anyone, including Italians),  has no idea how to answer those questions speaks to the fact that MSC's guidance is not specific enough.  If you don't care to know if crew members will wear face coverings or hand coverings before you book a cruise, that's certainly your choice.  For me, I think a "such as" statement is insufficient - even for Italians.