Jump to content

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, BWIVince said:


 

 

The most eye-opening part of this for me is about the part having little to do with Genting — the fact that Lloyd Werft, a legendary refit yard known as a mainstay for industry-wide cruise ship refits, now has little or no work due to the state of the industry and could close by the end of the year.  If that isn’t a sign of where the cruise industry is at, or what it’s going to look like for a few years, than nothing is — this is a long-term indicator foreshadowing our onboard experience on all lines for years to come. 
 

 

 

Vince, I translate your point above to mean "outside of the usual rust scraping, painting and fixes by the carpentry department, don't expect any upgrades/refits to your favorite cruise ships for a long time to come."

 

Am I reading you right?

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, KenzSailing said:

 

Vince, I translate your point above to mean "outside of the usual rust scraping, painting and fixes by the carpentry department, don't expect any upgrades/refits to your favorite cruise ships for a long time to come."

 

Am I reading you right?

 

That's how it looks like it's shaping up, based on what Lloyd Werft and the article is saying.  Small, regional shipyards can handle the light duty work, but yards like Lloyd Werft specialize in extensive and complex renovations like Crystal (for example) has been doing every 2-3 years 

 

To give a good example of this, when I lived in SF in the '90s, and Symphony and Harmony were both relatively new, their hull inspections and required drydocks were done in 2-day breaks usually at local west coast US and Canadian yards.  Once they needed major interior work or more complex technical work, they started going off to places like Lisbon and the German yards for their inspections more often.

 

From the way it looks, cruise lines as a whole are planning more technically required work that can be done anywhere and less optional renovations for a while.

 

Vince

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Why Genting HK is delisting from the Singapore Exchange

 

Seatrade Cruise News – Mar 5, 2021

 

“Explaining the rationale for its Singapore delisting, the company pointed to its focus on core business activities relating to cruise operations in Asia, particularly North Asia, and various initiatives to meet the growing demand of the Chinese market.”

 

See:   ARTICLE: Genting HK Delisting

Edited by Jim9310
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Jim9310 said:

Why Genting HK is delisting from the Singapore Exchange

 

Seatrade Cruise News – Mar 5, 2021

 

“Explaining the rationale for its Singapore delisting, the company pointed to its focus on core business activities relating to cruise operations in Asia, particularly North Asia, and various initiatives to meet the growing demand of the Chinese market.”

 

See:   ARTICLE: Genting HK Delisting

 

Is this new news? Or an older recycled article? Or a typo? The date under the author's name in the referenced Seatrade article is November 27, 2017.

 

Holders of Genting Hong Kong stock on the Singapore Exchange have until March 29 to transfer their shares to the Hong Kong Stock Exchange, should they wish to do so.

Anne Kalosh | Nov 27, 2017

Edited by ryndam
Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, ryndam said:

 

Is this new news? Or an older recycled article? Or a typo? The date under the author's name in the referenced Seatrade article is November 27, 2017.

 

Holders of Genting Hong Kong stock on the Singapore Exchange have until March 29 to transfer their shares to the Hong Kong Stock Exchange, should they wish to do so.

Anne Kalosh | Nov 27, 2017

 

You're right!  Sorry about that!  News alert forwarded to me today.

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Jim9310 said:

 

You're right!  Sorry about that!  News alert forwarded to me today.


You’re not alone!  The way Seatrade is getting crawled caught more more than once recently, thinking an old article was new.  There is something wonky going on.

 

Vince

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, BWIVince said:


You’re not alone!  The way Seatrade is getting crawled caught more more than once recently, thinking an old article was new.  There is something wonky going on.

 

Vince

 

The article predates COVID-19 and China's intensified assimilation of Hong Kong.  I  hadn't realized GHK decided to focus on core business activities relating to cruise operations in North Asia two years after they acquired Crystal. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Jim9310 said:

Why Genting HK is delisting from the Singapore Exchange

 

Seatrade Cruise News – Mar 5, 2021

 

“Explaining the rationale for its Singapore delisting, the company pointed to its focus on core business activities relating to cruise operations in Asia, particularly North Asia, and various initiatives to meet the growing demand of the Chinese market.”

 

See:   ARTICLE: Genting HK Delisting

I am trying to stay tuned to news about Genting, Tan Sri Lim Kok Thay, and Crystal. This article seems to be 3.5 years old. Was it meant to be recycled to remind shareholders on the Singapore Stock Exchange that the deadline to transfer to the HK stock exchange is "March 2021"? I noticed at the end "Copyright © 2021". Not sure why this is "news", if first released in Nov. 2017. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Funatabi said:

I am trying to stay tuned to news about Genting, Tan Sri Lim Kok Thay, and Crystal. This article seems to be 3.5 years old. Was it meant to be recycled to remind shareholders on the Singapore Stock Exchange that the deadline to transfer to the HK stock exchange is "March 2021"? I noticed at the end "Copyright © 2021". Not sure why this is "news", if first released in Nov. 2017. 

 

See #230 above.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A new profit warning has been posted on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange site by Genting.  It is pretty generic and does not provide much news except for a pretty dismal picture of a big loss.  More will come later this month when they post their year end financials.  The document is attached for your information.

2021031201546.pdf

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

While there are lots of older threads on Gentings financial condition, I am using this one to post some additional information on financial developments and I am not suggesting that Genting is headed for bankruptcy.  It appears that they have now sold their interest in Grand Banks.  This is not really surprising as it is not a real core business.  The sale is to the Genting Chairman and will raise about $8.055 million US.  Please see this link:

 

https://www1.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2021/0324/2021032400912.pdf

 

I would note that the annual meeting is set for March 31 and I would expect that the 2020 annual financials will be approved by the Board at that time and made public either at that time or shortly thereafter so we may have more information to peruse in terms of not only numbers but in terms of management's discussion of operations.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I just booked my first cruise on Crystal, departing July 4 in Bimini for an all-Bahamas cruise. Because of Genting's financial difficulties, I have travel insurance that covers bankruptcy or financial default. My credit card company might also refund payments if the cruise doesn't happen. Do most of you think it's safe to pursue this cruise with travel insurance, or would you wait on a Crystal Cruise until you have more clarity on the owner's future?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MarkWiltonM said:

I just booked my first cruise on Crystal, departing July 4 in Bimini for an all-Bahamas cruise. Because of Genting's financial difficulties, I have travel insurance that covers bankruptcy or financial default. My credit card company might also refund payments if the cruise doesn't happen. Do most of you think it's safe to pursue this cruise with travel insurance, or would you wait on a Crystal Cruise until you have more clarity on the owner's future?

 

If you have travel insurance that covers financial default and pay with a credit card, you should be good to go.  Did you check to see if your travel insurance covers financial default by Crystal?  Some companies have excluded them from financial default coverage.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, cruiserchuck said:

 

If you have travel insurance that covers financial default and pay with a credit card, you should be good to go.  Did you check to see if your travel insurance covers financial default by Crystal?  Some companies have excluded them from financial default coverage.

 

Thanks for the tip. I'll check with my TA.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would also check with your credit card company to see what your terms are for a dispute, as this is going to be your primary line of defense.  (Most travel insurers will make you file a dispute on the charge first if the supplier fails before providing service.) 

 

Most cards have separate procedures for disputes on charges where services were to be delivered in the future, like travel, so be sure you're looking at the relevant policy.  (Visa's policy for example, which is one of the more specific and restrictive, requires a dispute to be filed within 120 days of the last day the merchant was to provide services (disembarkation) not to exceed 540 days from the date of the charge.

 

Vince

Link to post
Share on other sites

Again not forecasting bankruptcy for Genting but they have posted notice that they have delayed release of fully audited financial statements maybe until June 30.  They do provide unaudited financials which one can peruse as well as a bit of discussion on certain issues like financial restructuring. 

 

Ihttps://www1.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2021/0331/2021033103046.pdf

 

I would note that the current portion of loans and borrowings due has increased from about $216 million US to $3.382 billion.  I would imagine that this reclassification might be due to them delaying of stopping repayment of certain obligations which might trigger a clause in the loan agreements making the entire obligation due and payable due to a failure to make payments as due (the management discussion under going concerns notes that they are in default on about $3.395 billion in debt obligations).  Additionally, their cash and cash equivalents at year end 2020 is down to $217 million from $595 million at the end of 2019.  It would appear that the only thing propping up their cash position is proceeds from loans and borrowings of about $1.2 billion.  Absent those proceeds they would be getting close to if not in a negative cash position.  However the going concern discussion lists all kinds of efforts at restructuring and debt holidays and deferrals so there might be light at the end of the tunnel at some point. How long they can support the business with loans and borrowing is an interesting question and one wonders what the terms might be to get those loans.  Other potential sources of cash will be operating revenues from the Dream, Star and Crystal sailing and potentially the sale of other assets that are currently not liquid.  The sale of the stock held in Grand Banks is such a source of cash but it only raised about $8 million and that is not reflected here obviously as it occurred post year end.  I am sure that there are lots of folks out there who can review these financials with a more expert eye than I have and perhaps give us some insights and thoughts.  But the cash position is something that gives me cause for concern as they need cash to operate the business and run the cruises and shipyards.  And the $217 million number was at year end 2020 and somehow I think that there has been additional cash burn since that date.  So how fast it is going out the door and what is coming in to offset the burn is an issue for discussion.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/25/2021 at 1:17 PM, MarkWiltonM said:

I just booked my first cruise on Crystal, departing July 4 in Bimini for an all-Bahamas cruise. Because of Genting's financial difficulties, I have travel insurance that covers bankruptcy or financial default. My credit card company might also refund payments if the cruise doesn't happen. Do most of you think it's safe to pursue this cruise with travel insurance, or would you wait on a Crystal Cruise until you have more clarity on the owner's future?

Do you mind sharing the name of your insurer? We are booked for the July 3 sailing (maybe will meet you onboard!) and are in need of similar coverage. TIA!

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, H2O Polo Willie said:

Again not forecasting bankruptcy for Genting but they have posted notice that they have delayed release of fully audited financial statements maybe until June 30.  They do provide unaudited financials which one can peruse as well as a bit of discussion on certain issues like financial restructuring. 

 

Ihttps://www1.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2021/0331/2021033103046.pdf

 

 

Thank you for posting this news regarding Genting’s release of unaudited annual financial results for 2020.  Management’s  detailed report reveals the devasting impact that the global Covid-19 pandemic has had on business operations and cash flow.  I agree that it does not forecast bankruptcy.

 

Since GTHKF’s auditors did not approve the information, it’s likely that they disagree with some data and/or discussions released today.  I presume that those key issues are contained within management’s discussions of PRINCIPAL ACCOUNTING POLICIES AND BASIS OF PREPARATION. 

 

While the information is quite technical, discussions regarding “rent concessions” and “going concern” (beginning on page 12) are red flags. 

One sentence, in particular, aptly summarizes the existing situation: 

 

“All of the above conditions indicate the existence of material uncertainties which may cast significant doubt about the Group’s ability to continue as a going concern.”

 

 

 

Edited by Jim9310
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Jim9310 said:

 

Thank you for posting this news regarding Genting’s release of unaudited annual financial results for 2020.  Management’s  detailed report reveals the devasting impact that the global Covid-19 pandemic has had on business operations and cash flow.  I agree that it does not forecast bankruptcy.

 

Since GTHKF’s auditors did not approve the information, it’s likely that they disagree with some data and/or discussions released today.  I presume that those key issues are contained within management’s discussions of PRINCIPAL ACCOUNTING POLICIES AND BASIS OF PREPARATION. 

 

While the information is quite technical, discussions regarding “rent concessions” and “going concern” (beginning on page 12) are red flags. 

One sentence, in particular, aptly summarizes the existing situation: 

 

“All of the above conditions indicate the existence of material uncertainties which may cast significant doubt about the Group’s ability to continue as a going concern.”

 

 

 

 

In fairness, I've read the same statement in most of the investors guidance of travel suppliers this spring.  I think it's auditor speak for, "this company can't carry on with these losses permanently and remain a going concern."  It's not a statement that Genting is in any greater or lesser risk than any other cruise line.

 

Vince

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BWIVince said:

 

In fairness, I've read the same statement in most of the investors guidance of travel suppliers this spring.  I think it's auditor speak for, "this company can't carry on with these losses permanently and remain a going concern."  It's not a statement that Genting is in any greater or lesser risk than any other cruise line.

 

Vince

NCL used almost those exact words in their circular to the regulatory bodies when they were obtaining their new financing last year. It set off something of a firestorm on the Regent/NCL/Oceania boards at the time. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BWIVince said:

 

In fairness, I've read the same statement in most of the investors guidance of travel suppliers this spring.  I think it's auditor speak for, "this company can't carry on with these losses permanently and remain a going concern."  It's not a statement that Genting is in any greater or lesser risk than any other cruise line.

 

Vince

Sorry to hear that the travel industry’s “going concern” issue has become so pervasive.  As operating conditions return to normal, there could be opportunities for a lot of new and “fresh start” entrants into the industry.  Not being burdened by indebtedness carried over from the pandemic would give them a competitive advantage.

 

Since Genting’s report is unaudited, it wouldn’t be “auditor speak”.

GTHKF is a publicly owned company with shares traded on the HK stock exchange, thus requiring them to provide specific types of information for shareholders and The Market.  Genting’s Board of Directors approved and released an unaudited report, apparently due to some differences of opinion with their outside auditor.  The “going concern” quote is supplied by management, and may have been deemed necessary in order not to mislead investors.

Edited by Jim9310
Link to post
Share on other sites

Vince -

 

Point well taken.  That said each individual entity has individual and distinct considerations.  Genting's issues are its alone and different from other travel providers.  All disclosures to investors are replete with "weasel words" induced by counsel so that there is wide latitude so that no investor can accuse the company of misrepresentation and the Genting financials have lots of those words.

 

A person can look at the numbers and make their own conclusions.  There are lots of challenges facing Genting and a lot of things have to play out right for them to survive.  I would just point folks to pages 9 through 15 which outlines those challenges and what needs to be accomplished to continue as a going concern and which show results by segment (cruise, shipyard and other).  The first 6 items listed in terms of "going concern" are heavily dependent on financial matters whether debt holidays or financial restructuring.  They note communication from debtor representatives of $1.742 billion indicating "significant progress" in terms of the restructuring with an agreement to stand still on repayments until the restructuring is complete or June 30.  Good news in terms of "significant progress" but it is not closure.  I suspect - but certainly do not know - that these creditors are willing to go along for a while but not forever.  And  I suspect - and again certainly do not know - that they are not likely to just continue to kick the financial can down the road forever.  But we will see.  The clock does appear to be ticking on the financial restructuring piece as it has since at least last August. 

 

They note (page 25) that their cash burn is less on a per berth capacity than industry peers which is a good thing.  They also note (page 11) that the burn rate has been reduced due to the sailing of the Explorer and World Dream.  Another good thing but not a statement that the burn rate is eliminated.  And they prognosticate on page 22 that based on announcements coming in April 2021, by August more than 80% of their fleet capacity (which I presume includes total berths in Dream, Star and Crystal) will be operational.  They state on page 26 that itineraries for Endeavor and Symphony will be forthcoming also in April 2021 so that will be good and interesting news.

 

I just highlight a few things here.  This is a very complicated set of financials and there are lots of moving parts.  One of the wheels could come off the cart at any time.  That said let's all be hopeful that what they are trying to achieve works and that sailing resumes in August on Symphony although that seems a bit counter intuitive given the recent cancellations of the late in the year itineraries.  We will see.  Fingers crossed!

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, H2O Polo Willie said:

Vince -

 

Point well taken.  That said each individual entity has individual and distinct considerations.  Genting's issues are its alone and different from other travel providers.  All disclosures to investors are replete with "weasel words" induced by counsel so that there is wide latitude so that no investor can accuse the company of misrepresentation and the Genting financials have lots of those words.

 

A person can look at the numbers and make their own conclusions.  There are lots of challenges facing Genting and a lot of things have to play out right for them to survive.  I would just point folks to pages 9 through 15 which outlines those challenges and what needs to be accomplished to continue as a going concern and which show results by segment (cruise, shipyard and other).  The first 6 items listed in terms of "going concern" are heavily dependent on financial matters whether debt holidays or financial restructuring.  They note communication from debtor representatives of $1.742 billion indicating "significant progress" in terms of the restructuring with an agreement to stand still on repayments until the restructuring is complete or June 30.  Good news in terms of "significant progress" but it is not closure.  I suspect - but certainly do not know - that these creditors are willing to go along for a while but not forever.  And  I suspect - and again certainly do not know - that they are not likely to just continue to kick the financial can down the road forever.  But we will see.  The clock does appear to be ticking on the financial restructuring piece as it has since at least last August. 

 

They note (page 25) that their cash burn is less on a per berth capacity than industry peers which is a good thing.  They also note (page 11) that the burn rate has been reduced due to the sailing of the Explorer and World Dream.  Another good thing but not a statement that the burn rate is eliminated.  And they prognosticate on page 22 that based on announcements coming in April 2021, by August more than 80% of their fleet capacity (which I presume includes total berths in Dream, Star and Crystal) will be operational.  They state on page 26 that itineraries for Endeavor and Symphony will be forthcoming also in April 2021 so that will be good and interesting news.

 

I just highlight a few things here.  This is a very complicated set of financials and there are lots of moving parts.  One of the wheels could come off the cart at any time.  That said let's all be hopeful that what they are trying to achieve works and that sailing resumes in August on Symphony although that seems a bit counter intuitive given the recent cancellations of the late in the year itineraries.  We will see.  Fingers crossed!

 

I totally agree -- I wasn't trying to put a positive spin on Genting's financial results, I was just trying to give context around the nearly boilerplate verbiage specifically.  It's there for a reason, but it's also not a sign of impending doom, just current risk.  As Larry said, it can cause a lot of panic without context (which your post definitely gives).

 

Vince

Edited by BWIVince
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

GTHKF’s Board of Directors has announced the reasons for having to release unaudited financial results in order to satisfy stock exchange rules.   Although their auditors were unable to complete their site visits and reviews within the allotted time, it should be feasible to issue audited results on or before June 30, 2021.

 

More time is required to complete the audit of the Company

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Forum Jump
    • Categories
      • Forum Assistance
      • SPECIAL EVENT: Q&A with Barbara Muckermann, CMO Silversea Cruises
      • ICYM Our Cruise Critic Live Special Event: Explore the Remote World with Hurtigruten!
      • New Cruisers
      • Cruise Lines “A – O”
      • Cruise Lines “P – Z”
      • River Cruising
      • ROLL CALLS
      • Digital Photography & Cruise Technology
      • Special Interest Cruising
      • Cruise Discussion Topics
      • UK Cruising
      • Australia & New Zealand Cruisers
      • Canadian Cruisers
      • North American Homeports
      • Ports of Call
      • Cruise Conversations
×
×
  • Create New...