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Finally a CEO stands up to the coronabro cdc!


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In spite of the snotty attitude of the get-cruising-again people, I find myself in slight agreement. Open up, get on those ships, and after they have been running safely for a few months then I might be willing to take another cruise. I'd love to see pictures of all the cruisers in their masks, at safe distances on the pool deck and buffets, relaxing in lounges with a drink and few other people around.

 

Of course, Del Rio might not like having to cruise at half capacity. And we can't even get everyone to wear a mask for an hour in the grocery store so might be hard to convince them to wear one for hours on a pool deck. But if you want to be the guinea pig go for it. I'll watch and wait.

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11 hours ago, mianmike said:

 

It's actually very simple.  The naysayers understand the dynamics of a pandemic and they are altruistic.  It's not like choosing not to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle where your risky behavior only negatively affects you and insurance rates.  

It was my altruism that caused me to spend most of my March sewing masks for other people who couldn't find them anywhere, and then giving them away to people who needed them. And it's my understanding of the "dynamics of a pandemic", but specifically this one, since all pandemics are not the same, that has caused me to  believe that cruising, with the correct mitigation strategies, both company and personal, can resume at a risk level that is not different than the everyday risk level many people already encounter.  The things I do when I go out - effective mask, impeccable hand hygiene, and distancing protect me and protect you, too. I can and would do the same thing on a cruise.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, RNRcruisers said:

 

Well maybe just a few of them 😂


OT. As I read posts, it has become evident to me my social circle is getting smaller and smaller.  Quite a contingency of members cannot participate without becoming disrespectful or borderline abusive.  

Edited by logan25
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Not an apples to apples comparison, but I was in Disney World on Labor Day weekend with my wife and son.  Many chastised them for opening too soon, however they did an exceptional job of protecting guests.  Everyone was adhering to mask regulations, social distancing guidelines were everywhere and for the most part did not infringe on the experience at all.  We are annual passholders and it was without question the best Disney visit we've ever had.

 

Personally I would welcome this type of atmosphere on a cruise ship, and if NCL is up and running come my vacation time at the end of January I will definitely be at sea.

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39 minutes ago, RNRcruisers said:

In spite of the snotty attitude of the get-cruising-again people, I find myself in slight agreement. Open up, get on those ships, and after they have been running safely for a few months then I might be willing to take another cruise. I'd love to see pictures of all the cruisers in their masks, at safe distances on the pool deck and buffets, relaxing in lounges with a drink and few other people around.

 

Of course, Del Rio might not like having to cruise at half capacity. And we can't even get everyone to wear a mask for an hour in the grocery store so might be hard to convince them to wear one for hours on a pool deck. But if you want to be the guinea pig go for it. I'll watch and wait.

If the cruise lines do have a mask mandate, I believe there will be no "choosing" to wear one. Refusal, I expect, will mean sweet, sweet cabin restriction til we can debark you at the next port. That's my guess anyway -- it ain't gonna be like shorts in the dining room on formal nights.  (Like they do on other lines)

Signed,

 

Dumb dumb Guinea Pig ;)

 

Edited by macandlucy
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2 hours ago, macandlucy said:

If the cruise lines do have a mask mandate, I believe there will be no "choosing" to wear one. Refusal, I expect, will mean sweet, sweet cabin restriction til we can debark you at the next port. That's my guess anyway -- it ain't gonna be like shorts in the dining room on formal nights.  (Like they do on other lines)

 

I think you're right.  There's a lot riding on all this.  The cruise lines are in no mood to deal with the "doesn't apply to me" crowd.  It's a new world now with the pandemic.

 

 

In a move that shows MSC Cruises is taking a zero-tolerance approach to anyone transgressing its strict new health protocols, the line has denied boarding to a family who left an organized shore excursion

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4 hours ago, macandlucy said:

It was my altruism that caused me to spend most of my March sewing masks for other people who couldn't find them anywhere, and then giving them away to people who needed them. And it's my understanding of the "dynamics of a pandemic", but specifically this one, since all pandemics are not the same, that has caused me to  believe that cruising, with the correct mitigation strategies, both company and personal, can resume at a risk level that is not different than the everyday risk level many people already encounter.  The things I do when I go out - effective mask, impeccable hand hygiene, and distancing protect me and protect you, too. I can and would do the same thing on a cruise.

 

 

 

And you're the type of person that would make a return to cruising a success.  I fear there are too many anti-science people in our country that will not follow the guidelines and will screw it up for everyone. 

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On 9/10/2020 at 10:01 PM, lbt43 said:

I was wondering if or when a cruise line CEO would finally say its time to cruise.  Del Rio finally makes a strong statement against the ban.  We need to cruise, NOW.  The cdc is WRONG.

 

He's anxiously waiting to start charging $17 for a milkshake at Coco's again 🙄

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12 hours ago, macandlucy said:

Of course the CEOs want to get back to making money, that's their job after all. But they also know that if they screw this up, and there are some serious outbreaks, that cruising will again be cancelled, for who knows how long this time, and that could end the industry as we know it. They have a vested interest in getting it right.

 

If you want to wait until there's a vaccine, I get it. But how effective must the vaccine be? 70% 50%?  How many people must be vaccinated? Do you want to wait til covid-19 is eradicated from the planet? (we'll be waiting a looooong time). 

 

I do understand the fear, and I don't think you should do anything you don't feel safe doing, but I do think the fear of Covid-19 is at kind of unreasonable levels, especially when it comes to cruise ships. But more than that, I'm not trying to change your mind. I just want to have the ability to make decisions for myself. 

Vaccines will likely be about 70% effective.  Sure, there will still be a risk to getting COVID-19, but the risk will be significantly reduced.  Also, the longer the virus spreads, the closer to herd immunity.  Sweden didn't shut down and the country is very close to herd immunity.

 

I have read that without the vaccine that a large percentage of the population has a natural immunity to COVID-19.  Scientists have estimate the percentage to be about 40%.

 

If cruise lines require the vaccine before cruising, which for most of the population will be likely available in late Winter/early Spring next year, all these factors will make cruising feasible and far less risky.   In any event, unless you have underlying conditions like obesity, immunity issues due to cancer treatment or diabetes, the risk of death (even now) for a person my age (72) is about 0.05%.

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40 minutes ago, 4774Papa said:

 Sweden didn't shut down and the country is very close to herd immunity.

 Sources I have read say that Sweden did not achieve herd immunity:

 

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200813/swedens-no-lockdown-policy-didnt-achieve-herd-immunity

 

"THURSDAY, Aug. 13, 2020 (HealthDay News) -- Diverging from much of the world, Sweden let COVID-19 spread in hopes the population would develop "herd immunity." But the risky strategy failed, a new report finds."

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, njhorseman said:

Source please.

I have read this from more than one article.

As I recall, the Princess ship that was stuck in Japan for so long, they found a large percentage appeared to be immune.  

 

I did a google search and came up with this

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200716-the-people-with-hidden-protection-from-covid-19

 

This is from another article

Both papers suggest that patients who have had other human coronaviruses—and in particular those who have recently had a chest cold caused by human coronavirus HCoV-OC43—have immune systems that are to some degree primed to fight off an infection by SARS-CoV-2. A study of that cold virus found it was generally connected to a mild upper respiratory infection … which is a lot better than having severe COVID-19.

  • This virus, and others that share similar proteins and structures, are endemic and common. Infection by these viruses may be a major factor in why about 85% of those infected with COVID-19 have relatively mild cases while around 50% of that 85% appear to have cases that are very mild or asymptomatic.
  • Testing of COVID-19 patients has indicated that a percentage of them—something on the order of 15% in at least two studies—have low levels of SARS-CoV-2-specific antibodies. These results have been correlated with those who have had mild cases, and may also be connected to those who have had recent infections by other human coronaviruses and acquired a higher level of transient immunity.
  • Children may be more immune to COVID-19 at least in part because they are more likely to have a recent infection by HCoV-OC43, or a related coronavirus.
  • The shared antibodies with other human coronaviruses may be part of the reason that antibody tests, including those conducted directly on patients and those looking at sources like antibodies found in waste, seem to so often suggest a higher level of infection than might be indicated by testing or medical outcomes.
  • This might also explain why some group exposures form a hot spot while others don’t—in some cases, there may have been some “herd immunity” in effect, just from chance clusters of people carrying existing transient immunity.

None of this is certain—in this conclusion I’ve taken things at least half a logical leap beyond the position of either paper. But if substantiated, these results could go a long way toward explaining why the immune response to COVID-19 is so extremely varied.

These papers also strongly suggest that some people have at least a partial safety shield when it comes to developing a severe case of COVID-19. That cough you had back in December or January may not have been COVID-19, but it may save you from catching COVID-19.

 

Yes, I have read articles that say herd immunity will be difficult for COVID-19, but explain why the death rate in Sweden is near zero now.

 

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/after-months-of-condemnation-swedens-covid-deaths-drop-to-near-zero

 

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10 hours ago, njhorseman said:

Source please.

 

Not taking a position on this as, IMO, not really sure who really knows what as there are qualified professionals world-wide on "both sides" of these issues.

 

However, a while back I got a lot from this article about the terms herd immunity, asymptomatic and T-Cells.

 

Health

Forty percent of people with coronavirus infections have no symptoms. Might they be the key to ending the pandemic?

New research suggests that some of us may be partially protected due to past encounters with common cold coronaviruses

 

By Ariana Eunjung Cha

Washington Post - August 8, 2020 at 1:31 p.m. EDT

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/08/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-covid/

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On 9/11/2020 at 9:51 AM, Oakman58 said:

I'm not in a rush to get on a ship (A.K.A. floating petri dish of illness) until the COVID virus is under control and there is an effective vaccine for it.

 

On 9/11/2020 at 9:55 AM, oteixeira said:

 

1:09 into that video, quote "cruise ships are good environments for spreading of bacteria and viruses, you got something there.  I actually do believe you've got something there".  I suggest that is exactly what people are referring to when they call cruise ships floating petri dishes.  

While I generally don't call cruise ships as a whole petri dishes, I do refer to the public hot tubs on board as petri dishes and that quote above is exactly what I mean.

 

Edited by PATRLR
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On 9/11/2020 at 9:11 AM, david_sobe said:

We all want cruising to resume ASAP.  But cruising during a world pandemic has high risks.  It was only months ago with floating quarantine zones with sick passengers with no where to go.  If this happened again just to one ship, it would set cruising back even further.  As we found out, many refuse to wear masks in grocery stores.  Do we really think we want to engage these kinds of people on the high seas?  The Covid hot zones will go up and down.  As soon as they were going down here in Florida, things opened back up with Memorial day.  45 days later we were the Covid hot spot in the world.  The same thing will happen again.  Numbers are going down but Labor day just passed us and bars are now allowed to reopen.  Numbers will spike again.  Herding thousands of people on a ship carries risks.  I just dont want to see things blow up in their face with stranded passengers again.  First responders and hospitals have enough to deal with in this crisis. I cant imagine putting extra work on them to rescue the quarantined ships again.  Too many are concerned only with ME ME ME instead of the bigger picture and how we can snuff this thing out.

My wife and I both work in the healthcare field, we are at risk every day. We still would feel safer onboard a ship, with outside air circulation, and sanitation protocols that have been in place for years, than to get on a plane with 100% recirculated air, and jammed up against others in the overbooked cabins. Where are the restrictions on air travel? Oh, that's right, the Federal Government is making a huge profit from air travel.

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23 hours ago, rhblake said:

It is about the amount of time you spend in that indoor space. I going shopping once a week but I am only in the store or an hour or less, then back home. If I go to a restaurant I am there for an hour or so, then back home. In a ship you will eat, sleep, play and lounge together for 168 (24 hours x 7 days) hours. I think it is all about the potential amount exposure time.

Yes---at home we can control our exposure time and also have more control on how often we are exposed.

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On 9/11/2020 at 9:11 AM, david_sobe said:

We all want cruising to resume ASAP.  But cruising during a world pandemic has high risks.  It was only months ago with floating quarantine zones with sick passengers with no where to go.  If this happened again just to one ship, it would set cruising back even further.  As we found out, many refuse to wear masks in grocery stores.  Do we really think we want to engage these kinds of people on the high seas?  The Covid hot zones will go up and down.  As soon as they were going down here in Florida, things opened back up with Memorial day.  45 days later we were the Covid hot spot in the world.  The same thing will happen again.  Numbers are going down but Labor day just passed us and bars are now allowed to reopen.  Numbers will spike again.  Herding thousands of people on a ship carries risks.  I just dont want to see things blow up in their face with stranded passengers again.  First responders and hospitals have enough to deal with in this crisis. I cant imagine putting extra work on them to rescue the quarantined ships again.  Too many are concerned only with ME ME ME instead of the bigger picture and how we can snuff this thing out.

I'm with you here, my next cruise is Bermuda in June of 2021, even that one is not a definite, and i don't mind postponing if i must, but i need a working SAFE vaccine before i step on a cruise ship.

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1 hour ago, PATRLR said:

 

1:09 into that video, quote "cruise ships are good environments for spreading of bacteria and viruses, you got something there.  I actually do believe you've got something there".  I suggest that is exactly what people are referring to when they call cruise ships floating petri dishes.  

While I generally don't call cruise ships as a whole petri dishes, I do refer to the public hot tubs on board as petri dishes and that quote above is exactly what I mean.

 

 

Did you even listen to the entire narrative?

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2 hours ago, Zaphod1962 said:

My wife and I both work in the healthcare field, we are at risk every day. We still would feel safer onboard a ship, with outside air circulation, and sanitation protocols that have been in place for years, than to get on a plane with 100% recirculated air, and jammed up against others in the overbooked cabins. Where are the restrictions on air travel? Oh, that's right, the Federal Government is making a huge profit from air travel.

You're wrong about the air on a plane being 100% recirculated. In addition they use HEPA filters similar to those in hospitals.

Per Boeing:

https://www.boeing.com/confident-travel/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIke3uj8Pr6wIVf-bjBx2uJQ5wEAAYASAAEgLJl_D_BwE

"The volume of cabin air is exchanged every two to three minutes. Enough filtered and outside air is introduced to fill the cabin volume every two to three minutes."

"Before air is returned, more than 99.9% of viruses and bacteria are captured by high efficiency particulate air (HEPA) filters similar to those used in hospitals."

 

The sanitation protocols used on ships were not effective in stopping the spread of COVID-19. In fact they're not very effective in stopping the spread of illnesses they were designed to combat like noro .

 

Finally if you search for posts made by Cruise Critic's resident chief engineer, chengkp75, you'll find out that there's acrtually substantial recirculation of the  air on cruise ships.

 

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3 hours ago, Formula280SS said:

 

Not taking a position on this as, IMO, not really sure who really knows what as there are qualified professionals world-wide on "both sides" of these issues.

 

However, a while back I got a lot from this article about the terms herd immunity, asymptomatic and T-Cells.

 

Health

Forty percent of people with coronavirus infections have no symptoms. Might they be the key to ending the pandemic?

New research suggests that some of us may be partially protected due to past encounters with common cold coronaviruses

 

By Ariana Eunjung Cha

Washington Post - August 8, 2020 at 1:31 p.m. EDT

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/08/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-covid/

I read the article when it was first published. It's speculative, It identifies numerous areas that may be worthwhile studying, but there's no proof that any of the hypotheses are true. In the article Dr. Fauci says:

 

"Others say it’s far too early to draw such conclusions. Anthony S. Fauci, the United States’ top infectious-disease expert, said in an interview that while these ideas are being intensely studied, such theories are premature. He agreed that at least some partial preexisting immunity in some individuals seems a possibility.

And he said the amount of virus someone is exposed to — called the inoculum — “is almost certainly an important and likely factor” based on what we know about other viruses."

But Fauci cautioned there are multiple likely reasons — including youth and general health — that determine whether a particular individual shrugs off the disease or dies of it. He also emphasized that even those with mild illness may have lingering medical issues.

That reinforces the need, in his view, for continued vigilance in social distancing, masking and other precautions.

“There are so many other unknown factors that maybe determine why someone gets an asymptomatic infection,” Fauci said. “It’s a very difficult problem to pinpoint one thing.” "

 

"

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"Cruise ships are floating petri dishes" is a meme.  A meme isn't scientific proof or even a logical proof. It's just a thing that kind of sounds like it could be true that people repeat often. That doesn't make it true.

 

If someone could show me some well-designed, valid, reliable, peer reviewed studies that show good evidence that there is something different about cruise ships, something unique that makes virus transmission greater on a ship than on land, then I'll change my mind.  Like "Salt concentration in sea air water droplets promotes virus survival". It doesn't, but that's the kind of thing I need to see -- something specifically related to cruising to give me a reason to believe a cruise ship is any different than a hotel stay, plus park visit, plus flight.

 

Until there's some actual science on that, the belief if just that -- a belief, an opinion, a guess, a meme.

Edited by macandlucy
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