tonnage divided by passengers on Rotterdam

[TomBeckCruise]

Is that how you measure passenger area on a ship?  99,000 /2660= 37.   Is this ship going to feel crowded?

 

the old Rotterdam was 44.

[Mary229]

I wonder how much of that tonnage on the old ship was wrapped up in old technology, old engines and excess fuel

[TomBeckCruise]

49 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I wonder how much of that tonnage on the old ship was wrapped up in old technology, old engines and excess fuel

 

I don't know. I guess since the ship hasn't sailed yet(as far as I know) no one really knows if it feels crowded. 

I'll be glad when some reviews start being posted.

 

I guess I can look at nieuw statendam. Same design.

Edited September 15, 2020 by TomBeckCruise

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

Nieuw Statadam did not feel crowded.

[0bnxshs]

Neither did Koningsdam, same class ship as NS and Rotterdam VII.

[Aquahound]

2 hours ago, TomBeckCruise said:

Is that how you measure passenger area on a ship?  99,000 /2660= 37.   Is this ship going to feel crowded?

 

the old Rotterdam was 44.

 

Your assumption is correct but what those figures don't take into account are ship design, which can increase and/or decrease crowds regardless of the ratio.  When I cruised Koningsdam, it didn't feel any more or less crowded than the other HAL ships I've sailed.  

[FlaMariner]

We "felt" less crowded on the Koningsdam & Nieuw Statendam than other HAL ships.....They are our preferred ship primarily because of that "feeling"... easy to get around and no lines.

 

 

[Hlitner]

Passenger space ratios (tonnage divided by number of passengers) has been used as a measure of spaciousness for many decades.  Consider that some of the Seabourn ships (and other luxury vessels) have space ratios in excess of 70 tons per passenger.  The more spacious mass market vessels are usually in the high 30s to low 40s.  Tonnage (in this case) is a complicated measure of volume (i.e. cubic feet) rather then actual weight.  Design of the ship does certainly matter.  For example,   Folks might be interested to know that some of the MSC vessels (generally considered a lower class then HAL) actually have a better space ratio then some of the newer HAL ships.  But MSC allocates a substantial amount of space to their Yacht Club folks (about 5% of total passengers) which makes other parts of their ships feel a bit more crowded.  

 

I should add that unlike many HAL fans, this fan has not been a cheerleader for HAL designs,  And things were made worse by recent HAL changes such as destroying what we used to call the Crows Nest (I would not insult the old Crows Nest by calling the new design anything close).  HAL also made things worse by adding more cabins to some existing ships at the expense of public space.  HAL has some other issues that might be addressed post COVID.  Most mass market cruise lines (of which HAL is one) depend on "maximizing onboard revenue" as a major contributor to the bottom line.  But HAL has a problem due to the older age of their overall passenger mix. HAL passengers simply do not drink a lot of adult beverages, buy lots of photos, and do other things that maximize revenue.  We know one HAL beverage manager who has pulled out most of his hair trying to figure out how to get passengers to buy more wine and cocktails ).  What will happen to HAL post COVID?  We suspect there will be a major effort to attract younger cruisers who tend to spend more money per passenger day.   The company is also getting rid of some of its older ships that generate less operating profit because of their size and design.  We are typical HAL seniors who now wonder if we will ever again experience the wonderful atmosphere that has long made HAL special.  

 

Hank

[Despegue]

13 hours ago, Mary229 said:

I wonder how much of that tonnage on the old ship was wrapped up in old technology, old engines and excess fuel

Gross Tonnage is not a measure of weight, but of Volume. People are often thinking that the ship “weights” 99.000t. It does not. 

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, Despegue said:

Gross Tonnage is not a measure of weight, but of Volume. People are often thinking that the ship “weights” 99.000t. It does not. 

While absolutely true, the GT/pax space ratio does not take into account how much of that volume is taken up by non-passenger spaces, like engine rooms and fuel tankage.  A truer measure, though one that is virtually impossible to obtain data for, would be Net Tonnage per pax, as this considers only passenger space (cabins and public spaces).

[DaveOKC]

In several different conversations with senior ship officers, I have been told that the smaller HAL ships were considerably less profitable than the larger ones.  Further, HAL's high repeat customer base is not as profitable as other lines with alot of first time cruisers (the seasoned cruisers do not purchase as many photos, drinks. excursions, etc.).

 

 

[Heartgrove]

Last November we spent 20 days aboard the Nieuw Statendam cruising  the Western and Eastern Mediterranean.  The only instance of feeling crowded was not actually onboard. Our port call in Kotor required a 15-20 minute tender ride to shore. Disembarking was staggered by numbered group (suite and 5-star mixed in) which was fine as we were staged in a lounge. But returning, we needed to stand in line onshore for an hour. Two local tenders and two of the ship's tenders were used.There may have been an operational problem as the other ship's tenders remained in their davits. The issue of course was the distance required for the tender ride and time involved. The All Onboard last tender was 1630 - but we got in line at 1520 and did not get aboard the tender until 1625! But I wonder if this was the SOP for this port? Our port call for Monaco was cancelled but replaced by Ajaccio, Corsica which went smoothly with no noticible difference from other cruises we have taken, and Santorini tendering is done by the Boatmen there which works like a clock. Does the additional 400 passengers over a Signature/Vista -class make that much difference? The Pinnacle-class is just a modified Vista-class after all.

 

 

[ski ww]

On 9/16/2020 at 6:28 AM, chengkp75 said:

While absolutely true, the GT/pax space ratio does not take into account how much of that volume is taken up by non-passenger spaces, like engine rooms and fuel tankage.  A truer measure, though one that is virtually impossible to obtain data for, would be Net Tonnage per pax, as this considers only passenger space (cabins and public spaces).

This tonnage can get very confusing. I did not know that there are so many different tonnage used. There is, Deadweight, Cargo, Gross, Net, Displacement & Registered Tonnage. And they don't even use 2,000lbs as the weight of a ton, it's 2240.

  

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, ski ww said:

This tonnage can get very confusing. I did not know that there are so many different tonnage used. There is, Deadweight, Cargo, Gross, Net, Displacement & Registered Tonnage. And they don't even use 2,000lbs as the weight of a ton, it's 2240.

  

Cargo tonnage is not much used as a term, either weight tonnage or measurement tonnage is used to measure cargo, both are types of cargo tonnage, though.  Registered tonnage (Gross (GRT) and Net (NRT)) are not used since the 80's, when the unified system of Gross Tonnage and Net Tonnage was adopted.  GT and NT do not have units (GT is not in "tons", contrary to frequent CC and Wiki usage), and a "measurement ton" is a volume not a weight, (as were GRT or NRT), and there is a third ton used even more frequently than the "long ton (2240 lbs)", which is the "metric ton" or 1000 kilograms (2204 lbs).  Different tonnages are important to different types of ships, and different tonnages may be almost irrelevant to different types of ships, and they measure different types of things based on what the ship does.

[ski ww]

Learn something new every day, thank you for educating us.

[Hlitner]

On 9/16/2020 at 8:08 AM, DaveOKC said:

In several different conversations with senior ship officers, I have been told that the smaller HAL ships were considerably less profitable than the larger ones.  Further, HAL's high repeat customer base is not as profitable as other lines with alot of first time cruisers (the seasoned cruisers do not purchase as many photos, drinks. excursions, etc.).

 

 

The basic rule of "economies of scale" apply to cruise ships.  Just consider that a 6000 passenger ship needs a Captain as does a 1200 passenger ship.  Both ships also need a Hotel Director.  And fuel costs are higher per passenger day on a small ship then on a large ship.   Small ships are wonderful (we prefer ships with fewer then 600 passengers) but are pretty much relegated to the luxury lines that can charge much higher prices per passenger day to defray the higher costs of smaller ships.   I think the sad reality for those of us who love smaller ships is that we are going to need to cruise on luxury lines.   I also agree with everything DaveOKC says regarding HAL's customer base.  When I am on MSC, Princess, etc. the bars and casino have a decent crowd at 11pm where folks are drinking and spending money.  On HAL most passengers are in their cabins before 10 and not spending money.  In fact, we have friends who cruise HAL who have probably not been awake past 9:30 on any cruise night :). 

 

If HAL wants to increase their profit per passenger day they are going to either need to increase prices or decrease the average age of the customers.

 

Hank

[igraf]

On 9/15/2020 at 6:57 PM, Hlitner said:

Passenger space ratios (tonnage divided by number of passengers) has been used as a measure of spaciousness for many decades.  ....  Tonnage (in this case) is a complicated measure of volume (i.e. cubic feet) rather then actual weight. ....

 

Hank

 

"Tonnage" in this case is derived from tuns (casks) of wine.  Strictly a unit of volume.  Not really complicated so much as a mangled word.  Should have been "tunnage".

 

The confusion comes from the similar sounding phrase "tons of displacement".

 

igraf

 

 

[NavArch64]

To summarize all of the above definitions of "ton":

1. As a measure of volume : 1 ton = 100 cubic feet of internal volume

    Used in Gross Tons and Net Tons for ships, typically to determine fees to be paid, but also to describe cruise ship size.

2. As a measure of weight :  1 short ton = 2000 pounds,  1 long ton = 2240 ponds,  1 metric ton = 1000 kilograms = 2204.6226          pounds

    Used in Displacement, Lightweight, Deadweight, Fuel, Cargo and any other item or items that contribute to the ship's weight.

    Some useful relationships -  Lightweight + Deadweight = Displacement

    Lightweight = Structure + Machinery + Outfitting + any other items fixed onboard

    Deadweight = Cargo + Fuel + Stores + Supplies + Crew/Passengers and their effects + any other items brought onboard

Note:

   Every ship has a Displacement Sheet (now electronic of course) listing every item of weight and where it's center of gravity is, both vertically above the baseline and horizontally from the centerline. This is used to first, determine the draft of the ship at each possible loading, and then to calculate it's transverse stability in multiple conditions.

   Enough for now.

[NavArch64]

One more thing ... a fun quiz question - Are the dueling pianos in Billboard Online on the HAL ships part of the Lightweight or the Deadweight of the ship?

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, NavArch64 said:

One more thing ... a fun quiz question - Are the dueling pianos in Billboard Online on the HAL ships part of the Lightweight or the Deadweight of the ship?

Perhaps we could say that the answer depends on the skill of the piano players.  Some are "lightweights" others are "deadweights" and a very few are "heavyweights."   🙂

 

Hank

[NavArch64]

That is an excellent answer to the fun quiz question ... bravo!

In fact, that is the best answer to that question I have ever heard.

Edited September 19, 2020 by NavArch64

[NavArch64]

PS Where is Stryker PianoMan?  HAL should make sure that he performs onboard again.

    

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, NavArch64 said:

1. As a measure of volume : 1 ton = 100 cubic feet of internal volume

    Used in Gross Tons and Net Tons for ships, typically to determine fees to be paid, but also to describe cruise ship size.

The 100 cu ft of volume was used in Gross and Net Registered Tonnage, a term that has not been used since the 1980's.  Gross Tonnage and Net Tonnage are not strictly a measure of the exact internal volume, as there is a factor "K" which is used, and which varies with the actual volume.  Gross Tonnage and Net Tonnage are unitless numbers.

[NavArch64]

You are correct. The 100 cubic feet can only be used in an historical context.

[NavArch64]

The current formula of GT = V x (0.2 + (0.02 x log V)) where V=volume in cubic meters , is a bit more complex.

Edited September 19, 2020 by NavArch64