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APPROPRIATE ACTIONS OR EXTREME MEASURES?


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Hello friends....American, Canadian, and abroad.

 

I am so very sad that my DH and I will choose not to cruise until this pandemic is under control.  We questioned (as 2 health professionals) whether we should fly from Canada to FLL in the middle of February 2020  to embark on a 10 day cruise onboard the Reflection.  We took a chance and said, "YES!"  I am quite sure that if the cruise was to depart one week later, we would have not have been on that ship.  I am so very sad because my DH and I absolutely enjoyed our recent cruising experience  on Celebrity after many years on Royal and Princess to ensure our children's need and fun was on the top list. So..... now. It is our time! After we disembarked on March 2 , I wanted ASAP to reserve for next year! But COVID got in the way.  We are realists, we are Canadian, we are rule followers and we are health professionals.  We are cautious and now somewhat scared. This pandemic is real.  This is not going to go away soon.  I celebrate positivity and optimism in this crazy time.  However, I am very respectful of medical and science facts that will help all of us slow the transmission of this virus until we have a proven vaccination. We will continue to do our part by wearing our masks indoors (and in some situations outdoors), washing our hands and using hand sanitizer in stores that WE HAVE TO GO TO (HELLO AMAZON), also  being respectful of having small gatherings outside (we have purchased a propane patio heater.... remember I am in Canada...we are cold) and trying to create a social bubble of friends to protect our physical and mental health.   We are trying.  I, as many CCers, wish to return to  "Normal."  We all need to assist in our world pandemic recovery, no matter what country we live in!  AND YES! I want to move forward so that we can return to such an amazing vacation experience on Celebrity!   I am grateful and appreciative of the amazing staff and employees that have provided such a superb vacation and want to support them. If we move too fast, and do not honour restrictions, I believe there will be a setback.  Certainly,  I am dismayed by fellow CCers that feel they may cruise and not be compliant with new rules that may not allow the same experience that they have had on previous cruises.  Friends...around the world, please let us do our very best by wearing a mask, washing/sanitizing our hands, looking out for our relatives, friends, neighbours who may be compromised and together we can try to erase COVID and make our world a better place.   Take care everyone.  I certainly hope to meet you onboard on a future cruise.

 

Pam

Edited by Dr. Pam
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22 hours ago, mayleeman said:

 

So, 199,000 known deaths in the US must mean that there have been 663 million cases here? 

 

Interesting math....

 

It's simple math.

 

The current number of deaths stands at 204,115 out of 7,000,612 cases.  That's 2.92%.

 

It's 204115/7000612 = X/100.  You need to figure out what the X is.  To get get X you multiply 204115 by 100.  Giving you 20411500.  Then you divide 20411500 by 7000612.  The full percentage is actually 2.915673658245879%, but I rounded up.

Edited by K.T.B.
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43 minutes ago, D C said:

Not buying it, sorry.

You need to define "too many" and the conditions present on a cruise ship that are not present elsewhere in daily life (hotels, restaurants, entertainment venues) that make cruise ships a frowny face place.

 

Other than unsubstantiated "floating Petri dish" comments, there is nothing to suggest that a cruise ship is any more hazardous than doing those other things.  

 

the problem is that cruise ships combine many of the problem areas.

 

1 inside dining

2. in side lounges and bars

3. theaters

note that many of these activies are closed or restricted in many areas

 

4. close proximity to a changing group of people in closed inside spaces by the time one finishes a week cruise they will have passed or spent time within 6 feet of most of the passengers on board often indoors.

 

the issue is not that you cannot find some similar issues on land, the problem is that cruise ship puts many of the more difficult environments, in one place with almost continuous changing points of contact, often for extended periods of time, with a considerable amount of socializing.

 

actually there are studies that indicate cruise ships are worse. there are several studies that have looked back at the major incidents, ruby, diamond, grand, coral as well as the some ships from other lines. these studies look at the transmission rates and do have access to the full data of infections and timing. they indicated R0 rates as high as 13. as indicated in one presentation this is even higher than they expect for transmission between family members in the same household.

Edited by npcl
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14 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

It's simple math.

 

The current number of deaths stands at 204,115 out of 7,000,612 cases.  That's 2.92%.

 

It's 204115/7000612 = X/100.  You need to figure out what the X is.  To get get X you multiply 204115 by 100.  Giving you 20411500.  Then you divide 20411500 by 7000612.  The full percentage is actually 2.915673658245879%, but I rounded up.

however with the number of asymptomatic cases, people avoiding testing and other issues means that the actual number of cases is 2 to 5 times larger that would put the actual morbidity at  between .6 and 1.4%.

 

Still bad enough numbers but one should take the limitations in the data sets into account

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I think becuase Petra's review stated that some passengers were not wearing their masks properly and the crew, including officers did nothing. I think this is the way it's going to go down on most cruises. They'll be tough for a few months once cruising starts up again, but eventually will back down a bit. A staff/crew is not going to be able to enforce this constantly. As a result, there will be times when the unmasking and/or improperly worn face coverings are going to happen. My statement is for those that believes that a Cruise ship has potential of be a Life or Death situation without a facemask. If they truly believe this, which I don't believe most do, then they need to put their life in the safest environment possible and that would most likely be their homes. 

 

 

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On 9/15/2020 at 1:43 PM, Spif Barwunkel said:

                                  

I’ll use Celebrity as the example here since X is the cruise line of choice for my three currently booked cruises. This is what I want to see when next I attempt to acquire my sea legs onboard Silhouette in April 2021, if indeed worldwide cruising has started again.

 

Prior to the resumption of global cruising whatever the protocols and guidelines are, as established by the CDC, the CLIA and each individual cruise line, there should be total commitment by all to ensure that those directions are adhered to and enforced. Information regarding the new criteria and the consequences for non-compliance should be copiously disseminated through various media outlets. In addition, each cruise line should have the same information at the forefront of their website, in plain view for all to see. There should be no doubt, no confusion and no obfuscation as to what is expected of us, whether a passenger or a crew member.

 

Once final payment is made, the cruise documents one receives should overtly include those same guidelines, expectations and consequences along with a form requiring the signature of each passenger, acknowledging receipt, understanding and compliance. That form will be surrendered during check-in at the terminal.

 

Folks, from the time we set foot in to the cruise terminal until the day we disembark, there should be complete understanding of how things are going to be. If one’s intent is to fake it and once onboard try to circumvent the rules, he/she may be unpleasantly surprised. I am not averse to confinement, fines, being escorted off the ship or even the creation of a no-sail list, on which one will be placed for a minimum of two years. After all, it’s not just about you and me and a few days at sea. The negative effects of stubbornness, ignorance and selfishness extend far beyond my enjoyment and someone else’s pious self-indulgence.

 

If standards are set and expectations are met, we cruisers can help the industry recover. Those who shun the idea of additional rules and regulations, and compliance with same, have no place on a ship and deserve what befalls them.

     

   

 

YES, YES AND YES!!!!!!!

 

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20 hours ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

Life or death? So you are requesting a cruiseline to make that choice for you? If you truly believe this is life or death, then you shouldn't even consider a cruise. Stay home & Stay safe. Besides why should I or anyone wear a mask to protect you?  This isn't a grocery store. You don't have to be on a ship.  I think you're being selfish to want to go on a cruise and expect others to bow down to your wishes. 

Why should you wear a mask to protect someone else?  Maybe because it is the decent thing to do?  I do hope they make us sign something that says we will mask up when appropriate.  Think of the free entertainment watching those that don’t mask up (even when they know it is a condition of cruising) getting booted off the ship!  Fun times!

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On 9/15/2020 at 1:43 PM, Spif Barwunkel said:

                                  

I’ll use Celebrity as the example here since X is the cruise line of choice for my three currently booked cruises. This is what I want to see when next I attempt to acquire my sea legs onboard Silhouette in April 2021, if indeed worldwide cruising has started again.

 

Prior to the resumption of global cruising whatever the protocols and guidelines are, as established by the CDC, the CLIA and each individual cruise line, there should be total commitment by all to ensure that those directions are adhered to and enforced. Information regarding the new criteria and the consequences for non-compliance should be copiously disseminated through various media outlets. In addition, each cruise line should have the same information at the forefront of their website, in plain view for all to see. There should be no doubt, no confusion and no obfuscation as to what is expected of us, whether a passenger or a crew member.

 

Once final payment is made, the cruise documents one receives should overtly include those same guidelines, expectations and consequences along with a form requiring the signature of each passenger, acknowledging receipt, understanding and compliance. That form will be surrendered during check-in at the terminal.

 

Folks, from the time we set foot in to the cruise terminal until the day we disembark, there should be complete understanding of how things are going to be. If one’s intent is to fake it and once onboard try to circumvent the rules, he/she may be unpleasantly surprised. I am not averse to confinement, fines, being escorted off the ship or even the creation of a no-sail list, on which one will be placed for a minimum of two years. After all, it’s not just about you and me and a few days at sea. The negative effects of stubbornness, ignorance and selfishness extend far beyond my enjoyment and someone else’s pious self-indulgence.

 

If standards are set and expectations are met, we cruisers can help the industry recover. Those who shun the idea of additional rules and regulations, and compliance with same, have no place on a ship and deserve what befalls them.

     

   

 

It is really an easy decidion, what ever they determine the rules to be, we can follow them as required, or if one does not like them, stay home

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31 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

It is really an easy decidion, what ever they determine the rules to be, we can follow them as required, or if one does not like them, stay home

 

I agree. And it's if the industry deems it necessary to mask up all the time & to take excursions that are sponsored by the ship only.... the cruise industry will never fully recover.  Both of these two things will be the deal breaker for most cruisers. 

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34 minutes ago, riredsox said:

Think of the free entertainment watching those that don’t mask up (even when they know it is a condition of cruising) getting booted off the ship!  Fun times!

The " Free " entertainment isn't Free-- You are paying $1000's to watch " Idiots " not following the rules and I doubt anyone will be booted off the ship. 

LOL--- I can imagine 2600 " Mini Police " shouting at each other and some even giving the " finger ".

I'll stay home, freeze my buns off, and save the money. 

 

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43 minutes ago, riredsox said:

Why should you wear a mask to protect someone else?  Maybe because it is the decent thing to do?  I do hope they make us sign something that says we will mask up when appropriate.  Think of the free entertainment watching those that don’t mask up (even when they know it is a condition of cruising) getting booted off the ship!  Fun times!

 

I do wear my mask to protect others while grocery shopping because others NEED to buy groceries. I do the same when buying my prescriptions because others do need theirs as well. I understand their plight and therefore I respect their presence because they may have no other choice.  I don't feel I NEED to protect you or anyone while vactioning on a cruise ship. You do not NEED a cruise. One chooses to be on a cruise. There is not a need. And when one chooses to be with others in the midst of a pandemic for no other reason than their pure enjoyment and self satisfaction, then one should also understand & accept the consequences & results of their choice. 

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A thought out of the back and forth here.  Sounds like Celebrity will be needing to hire some more service people to make the new ways work.  Think of the new servers needed in the buffet to scoop up food and the additional bar servers needed in lounges to keep people seated.  I know my DH is always "belly up to the bar" to get a drink in hand at the start of Elite drink hours.  It was sometimes a long wait to be served if you were sitting in the days before Covid.  This does not include any extra security people, just the increased service people to keep people away from congregating around bars and the coffee machines in the buffet.  Our next scheduled cruise is April of 2021 and we hope to be one it and following whatever protocols are in place by then.

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14 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

It's simple math.

 

The current number of deaths stands at 204,115 out of 7,000,612 cases.  That's 2.92%.

 

It's 204115/7000612 = X/100.  You need to figure out what the X is.  To get get X you multiply 204115 by 100.  Giving you 20411500.  Then you divide 20411500 by 7000612.  The full percentage is actually 2.915673658245879%, but I rounded up.

 

You might want to check who I was responding to....the person insisting it is .03% rather than 3%, meaning the cases would have to be 100 times what they actually are to arrive at our current 200,000 deaths.

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30 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

I do wear my mask to protect others while grocery shopping because others NEED to buy groceries. I do the same when buying my prescriptions because others do need theirs as well. I understand their plight and therefore I respect their presence because they may have no other choice.  I don't feel I NEED to protect you or anyone while vactioning on a cruise ship. You do not NEED a cruise. One chooses to be on a cruise. There is not a need. And when one chooses to be with others in the midst of a pandemic for no other reason than their pure enjoyment and self satisfaction, then one should also understand & accept the consequences & results of their choice. 

There won’t be cruising with an option to wear a mask for the foreseeable future.  You then have the choice to stay home so the rest of us can finally get back to cruising.  If you choose to cruise you will also need to follow rules or nobody will be cruising.  

Edited by riredsox
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12 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

By the way.... the curve has been flattened and deaths are back to almost exact numbers of pre-Covid days.   I do believe we are on the way to much better days ahead. Cruising included. 

covid deaths.jpg

your chart cuts off in July when US deaths was at a low point. The 7 day moving average is at a little over 800 Covid deaths per day in the US at this time.

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9 minutes ago, riredsox said:

There won’t be cruising with an option to wear a mask for the foreseeable future.  You then have the choice to stay home so the rest of us can finally get back to cruising.  If you choose to cruise you will also need to follow rules or nobody will be cruising.  

 

I can't wait until cruising starts. Soon enough we'll all be reading & posting in threads about people not wearing masks. The  threads about people not dressing formal on formal nights will be a thought of the past. We all know this is coming.  

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41 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

I do wear my mask to protect others while grocery shopping because others NEED to buy groceries. I do the same when buying my prescriptions because others do need theirs as well. I understand their plight and therefore I respect their presence because they may have no other choice.  I don't feel I NEED to protect you or anyone while vactioning on a cruise ship. You do not NEED a cruise. One chooses to be on a cruise. There is not a need. And when one chooses to be with others in the midst of a pandemic for no other reason than their pure enjoyment and self satisfaction, then one should also understand & accept the consequences & results of their choice. 

Wow.  Just WOW!  That is some of the most insensitive justification for not wearing a mask that I've ever heard.  Kind of like sitting on a death panel - you will decide who has the right to be protected and who does not, based on your evaluation of their worthiness based on their vacation choices.  So basically you are saying that if one chooses to vacation, then they have no right to expect others to exercise any precautions at all - they should just be prepared to get seriously sick or die because vacationing is not a need.  So instead of being considerate of others which in turns then allows many people to be able to get out of their homes and enjoy themselves safely, cruising should be restricted to just those who don't give a darn about dying, or about infecting others.   Got it.  

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5 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

Wow.  Just WOW!  That is some of the most insensitive justification for not wearing a mask that I've ever heard.  Kind of like sitting on a death panel - you will decide who has the right to be protected and who does not, based on your evaluation of their worthiness based on their vacation choices.  So basically you are saying that if one chooses to vacation, then they have no right to expect others to exercise any precautions at all - they should just be prepared to get seriously sick or die because vacationing is not a need.  So instead of being considerate of others which in turns then allows many people to be able to get out of their homes and enjoy themselves safely, cruising should be restricted to just those who don't give a darn about dying, or about infecting others.   Got it.  

 

Pretty much. I know it sounds hard... but it's real. Neither of us need to cruise.  If you think a mask is going to save your life you should not place your life in a situation that depends on others to follow guidelines they do not believe in. Again, it's hard, but it's real.  How bad do you want to cruise? How much do you believe a mask will save you? These are two questions that only you can answer. 

Edited by Goodtime Cruizin
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5 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

Wow.  Just WOW!  That is some of the most insensitive justification for not wearing a mask that I've ever heard.  Kind of like sitting on a death panel - you will decide who has the right to be protected and who does not, based on your evaluation of their worthiness based on their vacation choices.  So basically you are saying that if one chooses to vacation, then they have no right to expect others to exercise any precautions at all - they should just be prepared to get seriously sick or die because vacationing is not a need.  So instead of being considerate of others which in turns then allows many people to be able to get out of their homes and enjoy themselves safely, cruising should be restricted to just those who don't give a darn about dying, or about infecting others.   Got it.  

I guess we didn’t realize how so very special he is!   Perhaps one of the ships will have a cruise where nobody cares about the other and they can all wait on themselves and have a grand old time!

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4 minutes ago, riredsox said:

I guess we didn’t realize how so very special he is!   Perhaps one of the ships will have a cruise where nobody cares about the other and they can all wait on themselves and have a grand old time!

 

It isn't me or just me, it's thousands upon thousands of cruisers. I'm just throwing this out there. You need fully understand this. You're wanting to cruise again so bad that you're expecting a certain protocal to be in place and then expecting it to be enforced. And in doing so, you're betting YOUR LIFE that it will be. Good luck with that.  

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Just now, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

It isn't me or just me, it's thousands upon thousands of cruisers. I'm just throwing this out there. You need fully understand this. You're wanting to cruise again so bad that you're expecting a certain protocal to be in place and then expecting it to be enforced. And in doing so, you're betting YOUR LIFE that it will be. Good luck with that.  

based upon the report from the healthy sail committee the cruiselines will be requiring masks and passengers will have to certify that they will comply with the rules

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10 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

Pretty much. I know it sounds hard... but it's real. Neither of us need to cruise.  If you think a mask is going to save your life you should not place your life in a situation that depends on others to follow guidelines they do not believe in. Again, it's hard, but it's real.  How bad do you want to cruise? How much do you believe a mask will save you? These are two questions that only you can answer. 

No, actually it is not whether I believe how much a mask will save me.  I look to the medical and scientific experts to determine that, and they say that a mask reduces the risk of transmission significantly.  It has nothing to do with what I believe.  It has to do with what has been proven with scientific studies, which too many people choose to ignore because they don't like the results.   Based on that, and based on what procedures the cruise lines choose to implement, I can determine whether the risk is one I am willing to take.

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