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Should Coronavirus Vaccination be Mandatory to Cruise?


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9 minutes ago, clo said:

I have British friends who live in England but are petsitting in Switzerland. They'll return home next week and will have to do a strict self-isolate for 14 days.

yes, I am aware this is happening.  US i believe just dropped the self quarantine a few weeks ago.  I have been following what is going on because I had to cancel a trip to Israel in May.

 

 It is not easy to clarify what is happening in other countries.  Even looking at the US State Department Advisory is confusing for Israel.  So I decided to check the Israel Consulate web in San Francisco.  It is very clear no foreigners allow til further notice (with a few exceptions).   I believe I heard Scotland has a similar prohibition.  I checked France and saw they had some other requirements, a negative virus test result 48 hrs before arrival.  All of these restrictions I would think are a big factor for restarting cruising.  

 

I found the country consulate web site was the clearest and will be my go to site for info in the future. 

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15 hours ago, ldubs said:

I simply prefer to follow the expert opinions of our public health officials.  Anyone is free to believe what they want, but hopefully will understand that believing it does not make it true.  

 


Ahhh, but which expert?   On what day?  Fauci has been on every side of every issue.  The head of CDC just said masks are more effective than a vaccine. Boston University just released a study indicating that Vitamin D cut COVID risk by over 50% (while some folks would be dancing in the streets if we had a 50% effective vaccine).  Should cruiselines require passengers to take Vitamin D supplements?  Or maybe just put extra Vitamin D in all the food and drink the way the British Navy got sailors to take their scurvy-preventing lime juice by mixing it into their grog?

And how about before we surrender our critical thinking to experts we look at how the experts have done?  The 'expert' modellers panicked the US & UK into massive shutdowns and restrictions based on absolute garbage models.  The experts told us not to wear masks then to wear masks.  They told us tests are important, but then they said they aren't.  They tell us contact tracing is important and then try to tell us that contact tracing revealed that the Sturgis motorcycle caused 250,000 cases, an absurdity.  

I am happy to listen to SCIENCE, but very little of what is being peddled by 'experts' is science.  The opinions of scientists is not science.  Nothing based on modelling is science.  Science doesn't change nearly as quickly as the recommendations of experts have been changing, so how have these recommendations been driven by science?

And where are our experts out trying to find out why some places have had COVID results that are one or two orders of magnitude better than the results in the first world countries?

So for me the "experts" have dribbled away any credibility they may have had, so I will learn everything I can about the situation and make my own decisions.

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2 hours ago, iancal said:

Ultimately it will be up to to cruise lines to make the vaccination rules for their fleets just as it will be for countries to make the rules about who they admit and under what conditions. 

 

But could the CDC not allow a line to sail if they don't require a vaccine. Or a mask. Or ????

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The challenge with covid is that there was not much knowledge about it.  The level of knowledge and the most effective treatments and ways to avoid it changed as our general understanding of the virus and how to treat it progresses.

 

Bottom line....would I trust the musings/ramblings or medical recommendations of any politician over the advice of qualitfied and experienced  medical and public health experts, including Dr. Fauci?   Never.  

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18 hours ago, clo said:

Kinda like when someone says that they won't cruise if they have to wear a mask. Okay.

 

I have no problem with people who refuse to cruise if they have to wear a mask.  I have no problem with folks who refuse to cruise unless there is a mask mandate.  I have no problem with folks who won't cruise until a vaccine is available.

So no, it is not "kinda like" the same thing at all.  I have never criticized anyone here for how they choose to live their life.  Would that I and others were accorded the same courtesy.

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To cruise??? No

However, I would not be surprised if the vaccination is  required to enter to enter countries or their territorial waters.

 

So, in the end,,,,, Yes the vaccine will be required

 

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5 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

So no, it is not "kinda like" the same thing at all.  I have never criticized anyone here for how they choose to live their life.  Would that I and others were accorded the same courtesy.

That's what I was saying. It really is okay.

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11 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

I have no problem with people who refuse to cruise if they have to wear a mask.  I have no problem with folks who refuse to cruise unless there is a mask mandate.  I have no problem with folks who won't cruise until a vaccine is available.

So no, it is not "kinda like" the same thing at all.  I have never criticized anyone here for how they choose to live their life.  Would that I and others were accorded the same courtesy.

 

Thank you!  I totally agree.  Enough is enough already.  

 

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6 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

Thank you!  I totally agree.  Enough is enough already.  

 

Er, if you read what I wrote you'll see that I agree also. 

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52 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:


Ahhh, but which expert?   On what day?  Fauci has been on every side of every issue.  The head of CDC just said masks are more effective than a vaccine. Boston University just released a study indicating that Vitamin D cut COVID risk by over 50% (while some folks would be dancing in the streets if we had a 50% effective vaccine).  Should cruiselines require passengers to take Vitamin D supplements?  Or maybe just put extra Vitamin D in all the food and drink the way the British Navy got sailors to take their scurvy-preventing lime juice by mixing it into their grog?

And how about before we surrender our critical thinking to experts we look at how the experts have done?  The 'expert' modellers panicked the US & UK into massive shutdowns and restrictions based on absolute garbage models.  The experts told us not to wear masks then to wear masks.  They told us tests are important, but then they said they aren't.  They tell us contact tracing is important and then try to tell us that contact tracing revealed that the Sturgis motorcycle caused 250,000 cases, an absurdity.  

I am happy to listen to SCIENCE, but very little of what is being peddled by 'experts' is science.  The opinions of scientists is not science.  Nothing based on modelling is science.  Science doesn't change nearly as quickly as the recommendations of experts have been changing, so how have these recommendations been driven by science?

And where are our experts out trying to find out why some places have had COVID results that are one or two orders of magnitude better than the results in the first world countries?

So for me the "experts" have dribbled away any credibility they may have had, so I will learn everything I can about the situation and make my own decisions.

 

When I look at the clarifying comments from the head of the CDC and read the BUCM study I do not come to the same conclusions.   I do find the BMUC study encouraging for those at-risk populations.   

  

The rest of your comments are a well thought out tirade against our public health officials and science with a lot of emotion mixed in.   I agree with some of what you say.  There has been a learning curve, mistakes, and we have had to adapt.  Anyone thinking we had absolutes going into this will be disappointed for sure.     

 

Again, I'm not attacking what you and others who are against vaccines want to believe.   As with all of us, as long as you do not put others in jeopardy, you are free to believe whatever you want and do whatever you want.   

 

 

Edited by ldubs
For better choice of words
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6 hours ago, evandbob said:

I think everyone posting is missing an important piece: 

 

It may take a year, possible 2 or 3, from the time a vaccine is approved to when it can be given to a majority of the population. 

 

So by the time there are enough potential cruisers and crew vaccinated, most cruiselines will have gone bankrupt.

 

What is missed by POTUS and some leadership is that vaccination is but one part of containment and mitigation.   Any country or leader who sees vaccination as the solution with little else, open up the economy, open the schools blah blah, doesn't wear a mask, well that is a broken approach.

 

I agree that widespread vaccination to achieve any sort of herd immunity won't be till late 2021.    Before that a policy of testing, containment/mitigatation/contact-tracing is required, non of that even approaching a system in some countries.  Thus widespread cruising or international travel from those countries won't be for a while.

 

A small detail about vaccination, it hardens a person's own immunity, but doesn't really prevent them from spreading the disease.  So any policy that only relies on vaccination to prevent an outbreak is only half the solution at that.    

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I don’t think there is a universal answer. I expect a vaccine will be mandated by some schools. Don’t get vaccinated then unvaccinated children can’t attend those. Find another school or home school. Long term care workers may be mandated. Also other health fields. Those workers who don’t want the get vaccinated will have a choice. Get vaccinated or no employment at those places that mandate vaccination. Cruise lines could mandate vaccination, it will be a business decision. Really depends on the Covid situation down the road. Some countries could mandate vaccination and cruise lines won’t be able to go to those without proof that passengers have been vaccinated. Since there are countries requiring Covid tests that requirement would certainly be on the table. But really it is all speculation right now.


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2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

If it turns out that a COVID virus is widely effective AND the virus does not mutate, vaccination should not only be mandatory to cruise but also to attend school, etc - much like measles vaccine.

 I agree and would even be tougher.  For the deniers out there I would mention that there is nothing new to requiring a vaccination to cruise.  We recall one long Princess cruise which went to Devil's Island and then crossed the Atlantic to Dakar, Senegal.   Senegal has a requirement that folks who had been in countries with Yellow Fever (which included Devils Island/French Guiana) must have a valid Yellow Fever Vaccine certificate or medical documentation that they were not permitted to get that vaccine.  So more then 3000 passengers on that Grand Princess cruise had to have that Yellow Fever Vaccination (not easy to get and quite expensive).  Of course that particular cruise was not able to stop at Devils Island due to rough seas :).

 

Personally, I would like to see the cruise lines and airlines require multiple vaccinations including MMR and Flu.  We could go back to the days of travelers needing to carry "shot records"  like in the olden days :).  We have been on a couple of long cruises that had outbreaks of the flu (we are talking about the real flu...not just folks with a cold thinking they have the flu) and it was a good situation.   While most vaccines (including flu) are not 100% effective, they do substantially reduce the risk for everyone in the vicinity.  There is a good reason why most healthcare facilities require employees to be vaccinated.

 

Hank

 

 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

A small detail about vaccination, it hardens a person's own immunity, but doesn't really prevent them from spreading the disease.

Has that been proven?

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47 minutes ago, clo said:

Has that been proven?

 

Ah proof, this is simply thinking thru how things work.   Vaccines work by getting your own immune system active to develop either anti-bodies or T-cell that attack the new virus when you are exposed you have already memory in your immune system for a quicker response. 

 

But because you have the ability to fight it, doesn't mean when you get it you don't get sick nor aren't contagious.   

 

If the vaccine has high efficacy and you develop a robust immune response, when exposed you likely don't get very sick, recovery quickly most likely won't be a transmitter for very long, but because everyone on say a ship is vaccinated doesn't make it a for sure no body get sicks or doesn't transmit.   

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4 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:


Ahhh, but which expert?  
.  They tell us contact tracing is important and then try to tell us that contact tracing revealed that the Sturgis motorcycle caused 250,000 cases, an absurdity.  
.

That is what the headlines would have people believe, and most do. But the article in our paper with the headline that the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally caused 260,000 cases contained these details. That number was arrived at by a study which tracked phone data and all the subsequent positive cases in the resident counties of attendees were attributed to them, even if they hadn’t yet returned home. The article goes on to give actual numbers attained through competent contact tracing. When I add those up from the individual states, it came to 287 cases almost a month after the rally ended. Off by a factor of 1000 but a great sensational headline to get people up in arms. We need to blame someone.!!!

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39 minutes ago, 2wheelin said:

That is what the headlines would have people believe, and most do. But the article in our paper with the headline that the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally caused 260,000 cases contained these details. That number was arrived at by a study which tracked phone data and all the subsequent positive cases in the resident counties of attendees were attributed to them, even if they hadn’t yet returned home. The article goes on to give actual numbers attained through competent contact tracing. When I add those up from the individual states, it came to 287 cases almost a month after the rally ended. Off by a factor of 1000 but a great sensational headline to get people up in arms. We need to blame someone.!!!

And even if your figure is correct, that would be 287 unnecessary cases.

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On 9/19/2020 at 9:31 AM, LewiLewi said:

Today, a Yellow Fever Vaccination is required in order to cruise to regions that have Yellow Fever mosquito infections. I am wondering in the future, if a COVID-19 vaccination should be a requirement to board any cruise ship for any length of time?

I am interested in fellow cruiser’s opinions.

My answer is YES

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Once a vaccine is approved and shown to be safe, I would not step onto a ship unless the person was vaccinated.  In fact,. I would go further than that.  Nobody should be allowed in any public building without being able to prove that they were vaccinated.  I also fully expect that some employers may require that their employees are vaccinated.  

 

DON

Edited by donaldsc
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2 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

There is for me still so much uninformed narrative in this thread.   Some comments I've read:

 

 

This is a common misconception.  It's just not true.  NOTHING but nothing you do will prevent a virus getting to you unless you walk around in a Hazmat suit.   It needs to be understood that EVERYONE has the same chance of any given virus getting onto their hands or in their mouth.  It is what happens AFTER that point that vaccines and natural immunity affect.

The aim of a vaccine is to allow your body to mount a swift response WHEN THE VIRUS DOES enter your body. Which it STILL WILL DO at some point.

 

Please can we get this part understood.  Vaccines DO NOT prevent viruses getting into your body.  They are not a force shield.

 

 

 

I truly do not believe this for a second.  Everyone is at risk of picking up a virus from a surface or from the air whether they are vaccinated or not.   Once that happens there is a period of time where that person is contagious and can pass the virus to others by touching their mouth, touching surfaces etc.   Their bodies will then mount a response to the virus so that they will not suffer serious issues with it however THEY STILL DO HAVE THE VIRUS, it's just that your immune response is able to deal with it.  This being the case, with 1000s of people being in such confined shared spaces on a ship, the virus is still going to spread even if you have been vaccinated.

 

I want to iterate again that being vaccinated DOES NOT stop you from carrying and spreading the virus to others.   A kid who had the MMR vaccine still carried mumps from the UK to the USA and sparked an outbreak there.  Source:

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/08/mumps.outbreak.northeast/index.html

 

He was fully vaccinated yet still carried mumps and spread it to others.

 

In fact scientists have now identified very serious risks with any vaccines that contain LIVE virus rather than inactivated virus.   Those vaccinated are known to spread virus for up to 2 weeks after their shots.

 

Thus, the very opposite of what people generally think about vaccines on cruise ships is actually true.

 

If the vaccine that gets the green light contains LIVE virus then those people will be shedding COVID for up to 2 weeks after their shots which could be utterly disastrous if they stepped on board a cruise ship.  They would shed it in their urine, in their faeces, and elsewhere.  COVID would spread just as Norovirus does.

 

So actually having lots of recently vaccinated passengers on board could be an absolute recipe for disaster and would certainly not be a holiday I would want to take.  It's already bad enough in the UK with kids getting nasal flu shots which contain LIVE virus and then shedding flu virus around for 1-2 weeks.

 

 

 

As covered above, these statements are simply not true and very likely the complete reverse would be true if the vaccine contains LIVE virus.   It would be YOU the vaccinated person putting the rest of us at risk.

 

My personal opinion is that those people who insist on getting vaccinations that contain LIVE virus should be mandatory isolated and quarantined at home for a period of no less than 2 weeks to protect the rest of society.     No-one should be allowed to step on a ship if they have been vaccinated with live virus in the 2 weeks prior to sailing imo.

 

 

I will make one final point which concerns immunity.

 

It is utterly nonsensical to suggest that those who are vaccinated have any better immunity from COVID than those who have had actually COVID.   Natural immunity is always better than vaccine derived immunity imo.  In either case it is your own body mounting the immune response, not a vaccine. 

 

Therefore if anything is going to be mandated for cruising it MUST take account of people who have had COVID.  If you need a certificate to prove you've been vaccinated then you should also be able to get a certificate to say you've had COVID and thus equally have immunity and therefore don't need to be vaccinated.    Anything else is a blatant abuse of Pharma power to sell vaccines imo.

 

 

Finally, successful satire.

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2 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

Anything else is a blatant abuse of Pharma power to sell vaccines imo.

Just curious. Are these your opinions? Do you have professional background in this realm? TIA.

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